What I don't understand is this quality vs. quantity argument...if Babbit argues that this is all about the training; why do we have minimums for Private, commercial, ATP etc certificates. Why did the FAA at one time believe it was necessary for an ATP applicant to have all those hours for the certificate? What is magical about 1500 hours?
Sounds to me the lobbyists took some guys out for steak, lobster and strippers.
Sounds to me the lobbyists took some guys out for steak, lobster and strippers.
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While one can argue that 2000 hours riding along as an instructor doesn't make you a good pilot it does make you more experienced than a 300 hour pilot doing the same thing. I have had the opportunity to fly with, instruct, and check out both low and high time pilots, that being said hours do make a difference.
I agree with you there. The FAA is heavily influenced by the ATA and airline management, so it does not surprise me that Babbitt is taking this position since ATP requirement will cost airlines. However, it does not really matter what Babbitt thinks or wants because the Senate and the House majority will pass this requirement due to overwhelming support for this measure from the public. No politician will risk incurring the wrath of public opinion if they want to stay in office. All the more reason for people to write to their congressmen and senators to pass this requirement.Originally Posted by NWA320pilot
I keep reading about quality time and not quantity..... Where are the low time pilots going to gain this quality time? The idea is for individuals to obtain an ATP license prior to flying for a 121 carrier, what is wrong with this. Setting minimum standards is a big piece of the puzzle. It is not the entire fix but it is a start.While one can argue that 2000 hours riding along as an instructor doesn't make you a good pilot it does make you more experienced than a 300 hour pilot doing the same thing. I have had the opportunity to fly with, instruct, and check out both low and high time pilots, that being said hours do make a difference.
Actually, he made a comment suggesting the current ATP requirements may betoo little since they are short on icing ops, high altitude ops, crm, and one or two other things.
No opinion, just clarifying.
No opinion, just clarifying.
As pilots we are, above all, practical folks who prefer binary solution sets as opposed to loosey-goosey, touchy-feely solutions. Either something is, or it isn't. We are procedural by nature and like well-defined steps that lead to outcomes with as little surprise as possible. That said, when confronted with issues that have no easy answer (3371, Afghanistan, health care, recession) we are once again reduced to dithering debaters.
There is no easy solution to this question. All of us arrived in our seats through varying paths of experience; to apply a government band-aid mandating x-amount of experience or torturous checkrides, etc. is nothing more than knee-jerk BS for political expediency and to provide eye-wash for the lay public (think Patriot Act, TSA, DHS). This should be all our worst nightmare! Historically, the mass hiring of 300 hour wonders has been, thankfully, rare; it is a statistical rarity driven by unusually rapid growth. There is no need for government-mandated minimums. I don't think we'll see that kind of need again for quite some time. Try to find more than one economist who thinks that we will be roaring back into prosperity and full employment anytime soon, with a corresponding demand in air travel.
My point? Let the FAA, untouched by congressional goons, run the airlines. Yes, our training can always be better. Yes, a few bad apples will always slip through the cracks; they are part of every organization and should be promoted to chief pilot or some other position that involves as little flying as possible
You cannot legislate bad pilots out of existence. They will always be around, no matter how much you punish the rest of us.
There is no easy solution to this question. All of us arrived in our seats through varying paths of experience; to apply a government band-aid mandating x-amount of experience or torturous checkrides, etc. is nothing more than knee-jerk BS for political expediency and to provide eye-wash for the lay public (think Patriot Act, TSA, DHS). This should be all our worst nightmare! Historically, the mass hiring of 300 hour wonders has been, thankfully, rare; it is a statistical rarity driven by unusually rapid growth. There is no need for government-mandated minimums. I don't think we'll see that kind of need again for quite some time. Try to find more than one economist who thinks that we will be roaring back into prosperity and full employment anytime soon, with a corresponding demand in air travel.
My point? Let the FAA, untouched by congressional goons, run the airlines. Yes, our training can always be better. Yes, a few bad apples will always slip through the cracks; they are part of every organization and should be promoted to chief pilot or some other position that involves as little flying as possible
You cannot legislate bad pilots out of existence. They will always be around, no matter how much you punish the rest of us.
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There is no easy solution to this question. All of us arrived in our seats through varying paths of experience; to apply a government band-aid mandating x-amount of experience or torturous checkrides, etc. is nothing more than knee-jerk BS for political expediency and to provide eye-wash for the lay public (think Patriot Act, TSA, DHS). This should be all of our worst nightmares! Historically, the mass hiring of 300 hour wonders has been, thankfully, rare; it is a statistical rarity driven by unusually rapid growth. I don't think we'll see that kind of need again for quite some time. Try to find more than one economist who thinks that we will be roaring back into prosperity and full employment, with a corresponding demand in air travel.
My point? Let the FAA, untouched by congressional goons, run the airlines. Yes, our training can always be better. Yes, a few bad apples will always slip through the cracks; they are part of every organization and should be promoted to chief pilot or some other position that involves as little flying as possible You cannot legislate bad pilots out of existence. They will always be around, no matter how much you punish the rest of us.
You are naive to think the FAA is an impartial government agency and that if we only left it alone they will get the job done. The FAA is heavily controlled by the ATA and airline management. Airlines are not "run" by the FAA. It is the other way around. The FAA has been in bed with the airline management since the very beginning. It is for this reason why it is going to take both the House and Senate majority to force the FAA to make any changes necessary for public safety.Originally Posted by chignutsak
As pilots we are, above all, practical folks who prefer binary solution sets as opposed to loosey-goosey, touchy-feely solutions. Either something is, or it isn't. We are procedural by nature and like well-defined steps that lead to outcomes with as little surprise as possible. That said, when confronted with issues that have no easy answer (3371, Afghanistan, health care, recession) we are once again reduced to dithering debaters. There is no easy solution to this question. All of us arrived in our seats through varying paths of experience; to apply a government band-aid mandating x-amount of experience or torturous checkrides, etc. is nothing more than knee-jerk BS for political expediency and to provide eye-wash for the lay public (think Patriot Act, TSA, DHS). This should be all of our worst nightmares! Historically, the mass hiring of 300 hour wonders has been, thankfully, rare; it is a statistical rarity driven by unusually rapid growth. I don't think we'll see that kind of need again for quite some time. Try to find more than one economist who thinks that we will be roaring back into prosperity and full employment, with a corresponding demand in air travel.
My point? Let the FAA, untouched by congressional goons, run the airlines. Yes, our training can always be better. Yes, a few bad apples will always slip through the cracks; they are part of every organization and should be promoted to chief pilot or some other position that involves as little flying as possible
You cannot legislate bad pilots out of existence. They will always be around, no matter how much you punish the rest of us.
Minimum standard for airline flying has to start somewhere. ATP std is not too much to ask and easier to measure than highly subjective definition of quality, which differs depending on who you are asking. Besides. Quality does not come without experience.
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why not do away with the ATP and make it so you can go directly to the left seat with 250 hours and that high quality training ?
I'm not sure what your instructor, school or parents told you, but at 250 hours, your nuts haven't even dropped yet.
Ok lets not get melodramatic here, and by the way, any reason you couldnt post that statment under your real handle. Why sign up a new account to make such a off the wall statement...Sorry but people who hide behind keyboards, I tend to not pay much mind too..Originally Posted by 2muchfr8time
Here's a Idea for the " Quality over Quantity " crowd why not do away with the ATP and make it so you can go directly to the left seat with 250 hours and that high quality training ?
I'm not sure what your instructor, school or parents told you, but at 250 hours, your nuts haven't even dropped yet.
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Ok lets not get melodramatic here, and by the way, any reason you couldnt post that statment under your real handle. Why sign up a new account to make such a off the wall statement...Sorry but people who hide behind keyboards, I tend to not pay much mind too
Believe it or not it's my first time posting, I'm normally just a lurker, but had to get in on this one. Ok lets not get melodramatic here, and by the way, any reason you couldnt post that statment under your real handle. Why sign up a new account to make such a off the wall statement...Sorry but people who hide behind keyboards, I tend to not pay much mind too
if the captain becomes incapacitated and the FO now becomes the Captain why should that pilot not have the same experience it takes to get into the left seat, did the brochure leave out the part that you may actually have to assume control ? ?
I have been in the right seat of a regoinal and trust me when I say " there is a world of difference in responsibility " I will go as far as saying you are coddled in the right seat and when you upgrade with no other experience you may change your tune about quality VS quantity
LOL and it shouldn't be the quantity of my posts you judge me by, but the training I received prior to posting
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Post something of substance (sorry first one was pure melodrama) and then I'll gladly look at the quality of your post, rather than the quantity. Originally Posted by 2muchfr8time
LOL and it shouldn't be the quantity of my posts you judge me by, but the training I received prior to posting
wrap your mind around this :
you may as an FO be called upon to act as PIC in the event the PIC becomes incapacitated, since you would be called upon to this, then why should you not have the minimum requirements that a captain has ?
I understand the low time guy may have the flows and procedures down and can even pass a checkride to the same standards as an ATP, go thru a couple emergencies and some approaches to minimums with a real live miss in the ice and snow and then come back and tell me how well the simulator prepared you for that.
and I will also state you might be sitting in the right seat get warm fuzzy feelings as you're gaining all this experience, but when you move to the left seat you will understand its a different ballgame
you may as an FO be called upon to act as PIC in the event the PIC becomes incapacitated, since you would be called upon to this, then why should you not have the minimum requirements that a captain has ?
I understand the low time guy may have the flows and procedures down and can even pass a checkride to the same standards as an ATP, go thru a couple emergencies and some approaches to minimums with a real live miss in the ice and snow and then come back and tell me how well the simulator prepared you for that.
and I will also state you might be sitting in the right seat get warm fuzzy feelings as you're gaining all this experience, but when you move to the left seat you will understand its a different ballgame
