Randy Babbitt.... don't backtrack
 

Administrator Babbit.... during his confirmation hearing Babbitt stated:
"My number one priority is to focus on safety. This is a business where one mistake is one too many."


IT LOOKS LIKE LOBBYING WORKS, EVEN ON A BROTHERHOOD ALPA PILOT.

FAA chief reluctant to raise minimum pilot hours


WASHINGTON — Federal Aviation Administrator Randy Babbitt expressed reluctance Thursday to increase the number of flight hours required to be an airline co-pilot, a key safety recommendation arising from an airline crash in upstate New York last February.

Members of Congress and families of the 50 people killed in the crash of Continental Express Flight 3407 near Buffalo have urged the FAA to require that all airline pilots have a minimum of 1,500 hours of flying experience.

Only captains are now required to have that many hours of experience; first officers can have as few as 250 hours.

Babbitt told a Senate panel he thinks it’s more important to address gaps in the type of training required of all pilots than to select a set number of hours in the cockpit as the threshold for piloting an airliner. [THIS IS BECAUSE AIRLINE MANAGEMENT LOBBIED ENOUGH TO MAKE HIM CHANGE HIS VIEW.]

“Raising the quantity of hours without raising the quality and nature of the time … may not ensure the improved proficiency we all want,” Babbitt said at a hearing of the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee’s aviation subcommittee.

Babbitt also acknowledged the agency’s schedule for proposing a new regulation dealing with pilot fatigue has slipped. He had previously said he hoped to publicly propose a new fatigue rule by the end of this year. He said Thursday he now expects to propose the rule by this spring, and make it final by the end of 2010. [WHY THE DELAY?]

The National Transportation Safety Board has been urging FAA for 19 years to update regulations related to pilot fatigue.

FAA is also currently working on new regulations to address pilot training and experience.

Many captains and first officers at major airlines have far more than 1,500 hours flight experience. However, major airlines now farm out [outsource] much of the short haul flying between cities only a few hundred miles apart to smaller, regional airlines. Those airlines can offer cheaper fares in part by hiring less experienced pilots and paying them lower salaries.

Flight 3407 was operated for Continental Airlines by Colgan Air Inc. of Manassas, Va. The flight’s first officer, Rebecca Shaw, had a salary of about $16,000 in 2008 and lived with her parents near Seattle. She spent all night commuting across the country in order to reach Newark Liberty International Airport in New Jersey so that she could make the flight to Buffalo.

A cockpit voice recorder transcript indicates she was feeling ill, but was reluctant to tell Colgan she wasn’t well enough to make the flight to Buffalo because she’d have to pay for a hotel room. [BRAVO, CHUCK COLGAN, YOU RUN QUITE A SHARP COMPANY].

Some members of Congress and pilot unions have said they hope a requirement that all airline and cargo pilots have an Air Transport Certificate — which mandates a minimum of 1,500 flight hours — would force regional airlines to hire more experienced pilots and indirectly raise salaries.

The House has passed a bill requiring all airline pilots have the certificates. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., has also introduced a bill with a similar requirement.

“Administrator Babbitt was right when he said that we need better training, but very wrong when he says that we don’t need more training. Because we put our lives in their hands, we must ensure that pilots have both, and the (air transport certificate) legislation will do just that,” Schumer said.

The airline industry opposes requiring all commercial pilots have the certificates.

“There is no correlation between pilot pay and safety,” said David Castelveter, a spokesman for the Air Transport Association.

Several of the nearly two dozen friends and family members of those killed in the Flight 3407 crash who attended the Senate hearing said they were severely disappointed by Babbitt’s position.

“After listening to the rhetoric from the (transportation department) all summer that this administration was going to put the passenger first, and that cost would not be allowed to come in the way of safety, how can you not be devastated by this when you think of the price we have all paid?” said Scott Mauer of Moore, S.C., whose daughter, Lorin, was killed in the crash.

On the Net:

Federal Aviation Administration FAA: Home

Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee commerce.senate.gov/public/

Why dont we all stop being shortsighted about thinking 1500 hrs is a magic bullet to get pay rates raised, and start paying attention to what was really said in the article. He wants to make sure the Quality of training is there along with the quantity, not just arbitrary numbers, I for one think this is good that he is standing ground on this issue, 1500 hrs before hire would not have prevented 3407. Period, better training oversight might have.

Are we not as guilty as the lobbies when this is a unions real reason for wanting 3371 to go through???
I am all for pay to rise, but it needs to be for the right reasons, not because of a knee jerk reaction that will do nothing to increase safety...He took this stand simply saying that we can not sacrifice quality of training simply because of a rise in quantity....

As usual I see pilots jumping to knee jerk conclusions without looking fully in depth...JMO

So forget that a pilot has to commute cross country for a flight because she can't afford a place to live in New York. At a time where there are 6000 airline pilots out of a job, why does colgan hire low time pilots?
Because nobody with experience is going to work for $18k.
How can there not be any correlation between pay and safety?
If the airlines wanted safe experienced pilots then they have thousands to choose from. But they decided to exchange safety for people that will accept the low pay.

I agree. I think most of the provisions are good but I am left scratching my head on the 1500 hour requirement. This legislation was inspired by Colgan 3407 and both pilots had well over 1500 hours at time of crash.

There are no statistics to back up the 1500 hour requirement. FWIW, best FO I ever flew with had well south of 1500 hours when he started out on the Dash 8 here @ Mesa. A better system can be implemented than just setting the bar at an arbitrary value such as 1500 hours. We owe it to this younger generation of pilots who are fighting and clawing to get into this industry.

At the time she was hired, most if not all regionals had lowered the mins to ridicules levels.

You are right, $18k does not attract the the same Chuck Yeagers that $21k does :rolleyes:

The requirement would be an ATP not 1500 hours. If you watched the hearings, Mr. Babbitt stated that training required for an ATP may be too low as well. He implied that he would like to see the requirements for an ATP be increased.

And we dont owe the younger (or older) generation anything. We DO owe our passengers, freight, and those on the ground the assurance that we are doing everything possible to insure a safe flight. If that means some folks who really wanna be a pilet doesn't get to play, then so be it.

The way I see it,you can have hours to fly the space shuttle, bur if you do the same thing Captain Renslow did by trying to get out of a stall by increasing the stall, turning off the stick shacker, etc people will still die. It wasn't the hours that killed those people, it was his actions /training.

Yea, I'm all for a mandatory compensation level like they have in Europe. The public wants First Class levels of service, like Lobster etc. but they want to pay Wal Mart prices for it. Screw em!!! If your cheap butt can't afford the price of the ticket, go Greyhound!!!!!

Actually Greyhound pays more than Colgan.

Amen!!!!!!!

I agree with you, however I don't think it will change anything. Prime example, go look at the Compass threads. There are several posts in there where pilots having over 5000 hours are applying there. Granted they pay a little better than Colgan, but not much in the grand scheme of it all.

Nothing is going to change until we all get on board together and demand the respect, pay, and classiness that this profession should be.

When did this happen? Last time I checked Colgan raised its hiring minimums. No one can even get a second look at any airline including Colgan, unless they have at least 2-3 thousand hours on their resume. The days of hiring 300 hour pilots are over, so why don't you get over it already?

Would it make everyone feel better if we purged the airline ranks of the 300 hour wonders?

I think it would make some of these diehards happy, well as long as you dont purge them.

Don't forget guys...it won't matter what Babbitt says...if the Senate/Congress passes the aviation safety improvement act thing that has the 1500 hour stipulation in it...it's law...and that's final.

Let's just hope for 1500 and training improvements.

I think the idea that back during the hiring boom there were tons of experienced pilots just waiting to take jobs at the regionals but were turned off by the pay is bogus. Just look at GoJets. Tons of furloughed United guys took that offer just so they could stay in ORD, even though they were making about 1/4 the pay.

When it all comes down to it, most pilots seem to sacrifice pay for other things like QOL and the enjoyment of the job. Pay-wise we are our own worst enemy.

Personally, if I was sitting on a logbook with anything over 5000 hours, and the only job I could get was at GoJet or Colgan, I'd pack up and go do something else.

And this is my point. The regional airline industry has turned this job into something where experienced pilots wouldn't think of doing it. You have to ask the public if they want safety or cheap tickets. Cause you can't have both. I hear every day that people would fly a c-150 if it paid well. At Colgan you can fly a Dash 8 Q-400. But people won't because the pay and working conditions are so poor.
Now if the starting pay was a reasonable $40k/year then Colgan would be able to attract the experienced pilots. And $40k is still low. We have just been conditioned to believe that we aren't worth anything more.

I really dont' think an increase in training is going to do much but satisfy the FAA and congress. There was a lot of things that went wrong that night and it started with Management and went down from there. The "B" scale wages and working conditions i believe are a huge part. Lack of days off and weird hours etc...
Training isn't going to give someone the experience needed to fly in the Northeast.

But 1500 hrs in a 172 will????

You want quality or quantity in those hours ?

Exactly what Babbit was saying, yet all these internet pilots are going nuts because it might quash their magic "pay increase" pill which sadly is what the real motivation of the most vocal is....

But Colgan and other regionals are attracting plenty of experienced pilots right now with the payscales as they are. Look at AirWhisky, they announced a week ago that they are taking applications for possible hiring next year, and even former CRJ check airman were getting turned down. I think even Sully threw in an app just to see what would happen, and he was turned down as well :)

Well said.

But if the hiring threshold was 1500 hours, and she had 1700, she'd have still been in the same position. She would have still commuted from SEA, she'd have still been sick/fatigued, she'd have still raised the flaps (uncommanded to) in a stall situation. YES the problem is cut rate bottom feeding, and they type of pilots they attract, not a arbitrary number of hours. That's the solution... better culling the herd, and hiring QUALITY not hiring somebody who drilled holes in the sky for 1500 hours.

I know I am in a very distinct minority, but I don't think the 1500 hour is a magic bullet. Quality is far more important than quantity. People will always be able to game the system if the only requirement becomes a static time issue. Watch out for lots of safety pilot time in the near future.

I understand why so many here see it as necessary, but to view this only from the pilot side of the ledger neglects the side who actually pays the bills, managemment. I'm not arguing for low time hires, but restricting the pool of applicants at a time of growth (sometime in the future) unfairly restricts a business's ability to expand.

Gentlmen, what, in your opinion, is quality time for a pilot? Would you care to elaborate on what kind of experience one should have before entering a cockpit with passengers in the back of the airplane? I am very interested in your insights as I don't know what a good answer is to this question. What would you be comfortable with? What would the public be comfortable with. Thanks in advance for a well thought answer.

I'll take a stab at it.

"Back In The Day" (before the year 2000) in the civilian route, one had to go to college (wow... actually get a degree!), then flight instruct, then fly freight or pt 135 charter in a small airplane for several hundred hours to learn their craft. After a while, they'd move up to a turboprop and get some turbine time. A couple thousand hours total, and they'd get hired by a "commuter" flying something like a Beech 99, a Metro, a J-31, or maybe an EMB 110. After a couple of years they'd upgrade, get a couple thousand hours of PIC time, then go off to the majors.

Now (post Y2K) pilots go to ALL ATPs, Riddle CAPT, Comair Academy, Mesa Pilot Development, etc, and get their minimum FAA requirements. Then they instruct for 6 months, then get picked up by a hard up bottom feeder "regional" at 300 hours and given a jet to fly. They're told in training to turn the autopilot on immediately after departure, leave it on to approach minimums, and they'll be fine.

I think going to a puppy mill then instructing for 6-12 months then going to the right seat of a jet is NOT quality. I'd like to see the industry move back into hiring for experience. Of course, the only way that will happen is to increase starting pay, which will increase ticket prices. All of the problems we have in the industry stem from the Public demanding airfares cheaper than the cost of driving. IMO, that's a product of deregulation. As Ryanair's Micharl O'Leary says "flying is a commodity". Nothing will change until we change the public mindset toward flying.

How can you make this statement when the Captain of 3407 was hired with less than 1500 hours. People love to point to his total time and then say that he was high time. What you are missing is that a 1500 hour requirement would have kept him from being hired at the time that he was. I can't find the exact number, but if I remember right, he started flying for Gulfstream with under 500 hours and then was hired at Colgan with under 1000.

Other notable crashes with flight crew who were under 1500 hours when hired:

Pinnacle 4712: Captain total time 5600 (1400 when hired)
Pinnacle 3701: FO total time 761 (549 when hired)
Air Midwest 5481: Captain total time 2790 (925 when hired, 1690 at upgrade)
Air Midwest 5481: FO total time 1096 (390 when hired)

I agree. You would think that the latest "high profile" crash would change the public mindset or any of the other one's that occurred because of possible pilot inexperience. I wonder what the reaction would be if you informed the passengers ( before a flight ), of the flight experience of the cockpit crew. Would the company endorse this or do you think they would discourage it? Give the passengers the option to stay or bail based on the answer. Alot of fellows out there say 300hr pilots have enough experience to be in the cockpit. I say they don't. If they are so convinced that the flying public doesn't care, let em know before lift off into the WILD blue yonder.

I fail to see your point.

He didn't crash the airplane when he was below 1500 hours, and got thousands of hours in Colgan airplanes in the Colgan system between hire and when the plane went down.

Delaying his hire until he had more than 1500 hours, using your example, is no guarantee that he wouldn't have still screwed the pooch on a simple stall recovery (to say nothing of not letting it happen in the first place).

So no, he being hired under 1500tt didn't have ANYTHING to do with this accident and would not have prevented it.

Also, while the raw facts support your hypothesis, using AMW 5481 is a long stretch...

The more I think about that magic pay increase that everyone of a certain generation ("ME") seems to await the more I see that there are other reasons besides entitlement that cause this expectational delusion. The majority of pilots employed by a regional airline that have been at that airline for 6 or more years are either on captains pay or didn't fall victim of the "attack of the student loan companies". During this attack you weren't cool unless you financed all of your tuition at a really overly expensive university with less than one percent girls. You were required to take out at least 200K because all the cool kids were doing it.

The industry went through a time where most of those kids were given the opportunity to become a real life pilot just like they always wanted. But now that the honeymoon is over and those vicious loan companies need to pay bonuses to their big execs it's apparent that making those payments is a little tough. Yeah yeah...............we all know hind sight is 20/20.

So some of that hoping for a little more cash to keep the lenders off everyone's back has a lot to do with a generation that is pretty much screwed. I just saw that they are slapping more limits on executive pay again. So if they can set limits to their pay, why can't they limit a pilots pay? That's a lower limit that I speak of.

This isn't necessarily geared towards you, but:

I'm rather amused that Generation Y has been dubbed "Generation Me" by the same baby boomers who have constantly rewritten the rules to suit their own situations and whose greed was the cause of the B-scale, small jet outsourcing, and pretty much every messed-up situation both in and outside the aviation industry.

Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black...

Agreed boiler, the same generation changing the rules to suit them, ala age 65 when it would most benefit them. The changing of the rules to benefit certain people in the profession argument is moot coming from Generation X.

I hope you realize that the AMW crash was due to improper control rigging by the mechanic. And by the way, yes total time does play a role. Should we all assume that the 747 CA that was hired with 200 hours back in the day will crash his airplane? Along with the thousands that were hired with less than 1500. That's what your post says. The FO had 1700 total at the time of hire as a CFI and she still put the flaps up at 20 degree up with airspeed at about 80 knots.

He crashed because he wasn't competent the fundamentals. Wasn't comfortable with stalls. That is to be learned in the very beginning, and mastered while a CFI. The guy didn't know how to recover from stalls. Important skill as a pilot. Colgan overlooked a lot of the guys history because they needed people to work at the level they were willing to pay. He was willing and eventually, in their opinion, a future captain. Colgan couldn't be selective. Guessing he probably didn't practice too much stall recovery at Gulfstream. Both these pilots went to Colgan for the quick upgrade then to move on to make the big bucks, the FO said it herself on the tapes. That is the real problem: shortcuts. Everyone wants the quick way to the money that we have been told would be waiting for us "if we pay our dues." Most of us are flying the big jets right now (70-90 seaters). This could be it folks.

FAA chief declines to back flight-time plan

Federal Aviation Administrator J. Randolph Babbitt on Thursday declined to back a proposal to increase the flight experience required of commercial airline pilots, drawing condemnation from a victims' family group that is fighting for new air safety regulations.

The provision is one of a number of air safety improvements sought by Democrats in Congress and the group Families of Continental Flight 3407, formed after a commuter plane crash that killed 50 people outside Buffalo in February.

A provision in a House bill approved in October prods the Federal Aviation Administration to require all airline pilots to obtain licenses that require 1,500 hours of flight time. Entry-level pilots now typically need about 250 hours.

In a Senate hearing Thursday, Babbitt said he believed the number of flight-time hours alone may not improve the flying proficiency of pilots.

I hear ya on that. I'm pretty close to that generation when it comes to the age group. I differ because my parents taught me values and made me earn things. I actually first learned about generation "me" from Dr. Phil. Yeah, you catch a lot of Dr. Phil and Ellen when you are on reserve. There really is a legit generation of people that practically take pride in the fact that they perceive the universe as revolving around them.

quantity (flt hrs) has a quality of its own.
besides, most pilots are too cheap to get a room regardless of their compensation level.

That's a little monday quarterbacking. How many times have you done stall recoveries with your airliner at 1500ft during inclement weather? Do you honestly believe that they didn't know how to get out of a stall, the FO? Another words if you had pulled that CA aside and asked him to explain stalls and recovery procedures, he would have gotten it wrong? A PPL should be able to get out of a stall. It's very obvious that airline training played a very key role in this, or lack of it, along with other factors like fatigue and maybe even crew pairings.

If the starting pay at Colgan was $40k, it would be higher than starting pay at the three mainlines Colgan serves.

Isn't the real shame the lack of a good instrument scan. If I remember correctly, neither noticed the aircraft slowing to or below 100 kts until the stick shaker. Part of being a competent pilot is having a good instrument scan. With a good scan and better situational awareness, the stick shaker would not have occured. Extra training in stall revovery is not going to make air travel safer. Why is training in a manuever so fundamental to initial solo flight even being contemplated?

Again, I have yet to see a clear explanation HOW 1500 hrs. and an ATP will enhance safety.

Where is the data and statistics regarding which hour bracket has the highest rate of accidents/incidents up to this point in 121 aviation?

I think the younger generation deserves a break here. First Age 65 legislation and now this. There are plenty amongst them w/ less than 1500 hours and without an ATP who will make excellent first officers for our nation's airlines.

In the end the 1500 hour/ATP requirement will not benefit any of us in the 121 world today or tomorrow. It is a knee-jerk reaction that will penalize young, capable pilots looking for their break to pursue their dream.

The only reaction, sadly, that we're going to get is everyone who had to work their butts off in various facets just to get to a regional and are now stuck there blaming/putting down/'telling us how it is'/chastising/etc those who got hired on at/near/during a time of low mins. It's just a product of the ages, and not everyone who is hired at or near mins is a horrbile pilot or anything of the sort...it's just the result of the industry we find ourselves in.