I guess some people haven't seen this NTSB animation:

YouTube - Colgan Flight 3407 NTSB Animation of Buffalo Accident Q400

You'll notice the throttles stay near idle until the airplane is at the edge of a stall, then he jams the throttles while applying back pressure, meanwhile someone retracts the flaps. I used to teach CFI candidates, so I did spin training nearly every day in a fleet of fairly spin resistant airplanes. We had one airframe that was so resistant, that in order to make it go over, we had to jam the throttle and apply extra back pressure right at the edge of a stall, quite similar to what this crew did at glideslope intercept!

You had to include a sarcastic remark about 1500 hours in your post, and on other threads people are questioning the quality of a CFI who's been saying "right rudder" for 1500 hours. No one should doubt that a good instructor should develop an understanding of basic airmanship, which was central to this accident. There are no shortcuts to competency, and you certainly can't buy it.

I've flown with quite a few low time pilots in 20 series Learjets, and a firm grasp of the fundamentals, even if learned while correcting students' mistakes, separates the people who are trainable from the people who'll never be more than gear monkeys.

guys, take some time and go to this link CD List Of Contents
read the company submission dated dec 7 on what happened, they slam the pilots like there is no tomorrow and discuss all the things you are discussing on this board. Next, go to the alpa sumbmission also dated dec 7. At the end of the day it is still pilot error but they do a good job of explaining many human factors that related to the crash and lack of consistency and flight standards due to the fact that the company threw this airplane on line with out a complete manual. They have several quotes by check airmen that contridict each other on speeds and profiles which further demonstrates the fact that we have no standards for this airplane.
I knew Marvin, he failed checkrides in the past. At the end of the day, on the night of the crash he had over 3000 hrs, an atp, two type ratings and was qualified to operate the flight. Rebecca had over 2000 hrs, a clean record, had been a cfi and the feedback from her instructors and peers was all positive.
At the end of the day, none of us are bullet proof and we can all make a mistake. Any of you ever have a TP in the sim. Its a good thing it happended in the sim because if it would have happened in the real world you would be on CNN. Does that make you a terrible pilot? No, it makes you a human being tasked with flying an airplane.

We've all broken sterile cockpit, but they took it to a whole new level. The ENTIRE flight from taxi to the crash was non-essential communication. This was a short flight at night in icing, and the Captain was relatively new on the aircraft. Not the time and place to be blabbing about non-essential subjects.

The captain did pass all the tests required by the FAA to be an ATP... eventually. Guess that means he was a great pilot by your standards. Colgan has a reputation for doing the minimum. Going by the training record of the Captain, looks like he had a hard time achieving the minimum requirements but after enough tries he got through it. Never give up. Is this a guy you want your family flying around with? If he made it, there has to be more pilots out there who were willing to work for sooo cheap that the company couldn't say no to. Unfortunately we'll find out in a few years when they upgrade.

Actually, he's a first class guy. If you've never met him I wouldn't judge him on his last name. He worked closely on the 3701 accident and is very committed to safety at Colgan. He came from Pinnacle and has arguably the most extensive resume in safety in the industry.

Why is this a surprise to anyone? Airlines WILL ALWAYS DO OR SAY ANYTHING to shift the blame to the pilots. Why? Because it removes the liability FROM the airline.

So you were there and knows he pulled back on the yoke instead of it pitching up due to trim right?:cool:

My point was if you feel that the FAA approved training Colgan provided was insuffiecient or that the FAA certificated ATP rated pilot was unqualified, then change the regs. If the legal minimum is too low, raise it!

I think the changes 3371 would bring are a good start.

The DFDR shows the position of the yoke during the flight and is displayed on the video. The video obviously shows that he pulled back on the yoke.

And if these two were paid, let's say $200.00 an hour, would the out come be different. Doubtful. Low pay is no excuse for ignorance nor unprofessional behavior in the cockpit.

These two had no business being where they were that night, let alone with any airline, that has a responsible training and checking program for that matter. Yeah... I know the training department looks great on paper. But in practice??? very deficient.

I just don't see the difference when little Johnny who should be left behind to repeat the 4th grade is promoted to the 5th grade. He just gets further and further behind. I'm sure the captain was a great guy to drink a beer with... but still does not make him the ace of the base.