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Will a Trip & Duty Rig or a Min Day.....
Many of our "recalled" union leaders are claiming with the utmost confidence that if we have a trip and duty rig and/or a min day....that our quality of life would be (gasp) - destroyed!!!
Again these are the same guys that said 10 days off for reserves and 11 days off for line holders would be a good fair deal:cool:(thus causing our TA to get voted down). Seems to me that these items are essential and industry standard. Can anyone from another airline who currently operates with a trip and duty rig, or a min day, chime in and tell us what it can do for your quality of life? |
There are way to many factors for somebody on the outside to be able to asses the overall QOL impact it would have on your specific operation.
And yep, I'd be all for it. With the new rest/duty times coming down the pipe, it's going to become even more important to push for them. But just taking one example of what they may be talking about; 4 day/commutable/late show/early release trip. Day 1 might be 3 hrs credit, days 2-3 might be 7-8 hours credit each, day 4 being 3 hours. Standard 4 day worth 20-22 hours credit. The potential pitfall is this, if they push for 5 hours a day, management is going to make sure they get 5 hours (or more) of flying out of you, especially on day 1 and day 4. This has the potential to destroy commutable trips. Earlier show/more flying on day 1/later release more flying on day 4 to spread it out. Also, to balance it out, they could make the middle day of the pairing less productive to the keep the trip credit down. But instead of just making longer overnights, they're just going to schedule MORE sit time with LESS flying just to balance it out. If I remember correctly, when AWAC got their big fat contract they had to give back shortly after 9/11, they negotiated trip/duty rigs, but they only applied to the middle days of multi day pairings, not the first/last day. Now, the typical knee jerk answer is that trip/duty rigs "will force the airline to schedule more productive/efficient trips". At the major/legacy/LCC level, that can be the case. At the "regional"/subcontracted/CPA/FPD level, that is usually NOT the case. The problem is, the customer (the major/legacy you feed for) dictates the schedule down to the "regional" level. The net result is that it causes pilot costs to go up significantly with no increase in pilot productivity, OR pilot QOL to go down, or BOTH. As I said, yep, I'm all for it, but that's the reality of being at the "regional" level vs. the major/legacy. |
Would trip/duty rigs and min value days put more pressure on the company to schedule you for more flying per day? Start 6am on day 1 finish 10pm on day 4. Hope you arent a commuter!
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Think twice about cheering for these new congressional proposals too.
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Originally Posted by Flyby1206
(Post 734537)
Would trip/duty rigs and min value days put more pressure on the company to schedule you for more flying per day? Start 6am on day 1 finish 10pm on day 4. Hope you arent a commuter!
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 734534)
Now, the typical knee jerk answer is that trip/duty rigs "will force the airline to schedule more productive/efficient trips". At the major/legacy/LCC level, that can be the case. At the "regional"/subcontracted/CPA/FPD level, that is usually NOT the case. The problem is, the customer (the major/legacy you feed for) dictates the schedule down to the "regional" level.
The net result is that it causes pilot costs to go up significantly with no increase in pilot productivity, OR pilot QOL to go down, or BOTH. |
A min day credit is nice for obvious reasons. I can't even begin to tell you how much of my pay this year was a result of a min day credit. However there is some argument here (ASA) that our min day credit and duty rigs force the company to make crappy trips. About 80% of our lines are 4 day trips while the company has reduced the amount of standups because of the duty rig. Some argue that without the rig there would be more standups and therefore a better selection of trips to bid from instead of all 4 days. The argument kind of makes sense. The company's goal each month is to minimize these credits since it's free money. If they build the trip right then we don't see any min day/duty rig credit. The problem might be that a long 4 day trip is the way to avoid these credits.
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Originally Posted by Flyby1206
(Post 734537)
Would trip/duty rigs and min value days put more pressure on the company to schedule you for more flying per day? Start 6am on day 1 finish 10pm on day 4. Hope you arent a commuter!
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While I want to stay out of the politics on a public board, I will say that the min day and rigs are more PROTECTIONS than true "money makers". We don't know what is coming down the pipe with duty and flight time changes (as in the final and official rules) but we need to all be sure that we cover ourselves in every way, shape, and form. While pairings may change due to a contract (on the company's behalf), the changes from marketing and FAR compliance need to be looked at to make sure we are paid when we are at work. Sure, ASA and others may have trips that start early and end late- how many of those trips are long duty days? 9E already utilizes the long days and max legs. We (9E) are the most productive and efficient RJ operator IN THE WORLD. A min day makes sure you are paid when you show up at work, a duty rig pays you when you have a long sit (sit out a push), and a trip rig pays us when the company elects to have us in a hotel for long periods of time. I'm sure every pilot has different thoughts and views about min days and rigs but the thought that these rigs will HURT us going forward is one I can't wrap my head around. The company always works to maintain skeleton staffing and productivity while minimizing hotel and perdiem costs- the thought that everyone will get 4 hours of credit a day by simply flying 4 hours would cost a TON in terms of higher crew requirements (staffing), more hotel costs, and more perdiem. The company wants us to work the max and be off their dole, we want to work the max and have the most time at home. This thought won't change regardless, but the pilot's pushing to protect OUR side of compensation is what is in discussion in this thread and on the company board (where the OP started from). If you have concerns or questions- call or email your reps.
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Some of this is general questions for you, some of this is just for clarification and comparison sake. So please be patient;
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 734675)
Sure, ASA and others may have trips that start early and end late- how many of those trips are long duty days?
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 734675)
9E already utilizes the long days and max legs. We (9E) are the most productive and efficient RJ operator IN THE WORLD.
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 734675)
A min day makes sure you are paid when you show up at work, a duty rig pays you when you have a long sit (sit out a push), and a trip rig pays us when the company elects to have us in a hotel for long periods of time.
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 734675)
I'm sure every pilot has different thoughts and views about min days and rigs but the thought that these rigs will HURT us going forward is one I can't wrap my head around.
And naturally, that can take the discussion into a whole different topic that I have NO desire of engaging in. You know, will it be good for ALL pilots, will it affect ALL pilots, is it just he senior pilots looking out for themselves, etc. |
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 734711)
Not sure about EV, but at my company, some of the 4 days are just that, with long duty days. Typically 12 hours, and naturally with one long overnight somewhere in the middle to flip the times. In other words, first two days early show, evening finish, day 3-4 late morning show late evening finish. Now, some of that has simply to do with one of our domiciles and the rampant delays so that there is always fresh/legal crews showing up early to absorb the delays that may have occurred the say prior. With a pay credit of the standard 20-22 hours. Some pay more, but not all. But spending 80 TAFB for that low of credit is just asinine.
When you say that, do you mean 9E gets the most utilization out of the airframes with max block/legs per day, or max crew utilization, or BOTH? If the answer is both, that begs the question of how much sit time can there be on a typical multi day pairing? True, and they'd all be nice to have. But on the perdiem front on a 4 day pairing, middle days are the same whether the crew sits at the airport or sits at the hotel. Only days 1 and 4 toss in the higher perdiem cost. But yes, if you have shorter, more crew efficient days, that results in MORE crews in the hotels, driving the cost up. I remember the reaction I got from your FO rep (I think you are with ASA) when I showed him one of my summer schedules where I had 10 leg 2-days worth 15 hours- with 15:20 block, 4 day trips worth 28 hours with over 28 hours of block. First reaction was "holy cow, how do you fly so much", followed by "hey, why do you fly more then you get paid for"? I have also had 4 day trips worth less than 15 hours- with lots of sits in DTW so it's not all rosy. Currently at 9E you will fly 75 hours to make 75 hours of pay unless you are on reserve (which can be flying far more than 75 hours or sitting ALOT of days on airport reserve) or a highspeeder that will still only get 10-12 days off depending on the month. For a lineholder to make 75 CURRENTLY, that pilot will typically be flying 75+ hours of block. If you are not in the top 1/3rd it's not especially rosy, ask anybody what happened to schedules in January- lots of folks are down to the 10 day off minimum that used to have 12-16 days off. I think that's where all this started on the company board. I hope I answered your questions. |
Thanks for the answers, again, some of this is just general curiosity and for clarification
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 734745)
We have some 4-day trips that credit less with the same obstacles.
Crew utilization My company is efficient crew utilization wise for their purposes, but not from our point of view. By that I mean, it's more efficient to have us doing 12 hour days with sit times. It's opens up the length of the duty period to wedge in more flying . We're limited to a 13.5 hour day, but the norm is 12 to 12.5. If they cut the duty down for us to say 10 being the norm, they can't get 6-7 hours of flying in with our schedules. This comes into play with my point about the hotels........
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 734745)
The issue is having more crewmembers "at work" to accomplish the same block hours of flying. I'm not quite following your "more efficient= more hotels". If pilot's are efficient they hit their credit (whether it's block or simply credit) quicker and are released and off the dole for hotel and perdiem costs. The block hours for the airframes aren't what is the direct discussion, it's the amount of pilots required to do it, and the amount of days those pilots take to get it done.
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 734745)
I remember the reaction I got from your FO rep (I think you are with ASA) when I showed him one of my summer schedules where I had 10 leg 2-days worth 15 hours- with 15:20 block, 4 day trips worth 28 hours with over 28 hours of block. First reaction was "holy cow, how do you fly so much", followed by "hey, why do you fly more then you get paid for"? I have also had 4 day trips worth less than 15 hours- with lots of sits in DTW so it's not all rosy. Currently at 9E you will fly 75 hours to make 75 hours of pay unless you are on reserve (which can be flying far more than 75 hours or sitting ALOT of days on airport reserve) or a highspeeder that will still only get 10-12 days off depending on the month. For a lineholder to make 75 CURRENTLY, that pilot will typically be flying 75+ hours of block. If you are not in the top 1/3rd it's not especially rosy, ask anybody what happened to schedules in January- lots of folks are down to the 10 day off minimum that used to have 12-16 days off. I think that's where all this started on the company board.
I hope I answered your questions. Sorry for the thread drift/tangent everybody. To bring it back full circle, we at the regionals need trip/duty rigs. Granted, at my company, it usually balances out that the credit will exceed 50% of the duty time, which most trip/duty rigs aim for. But I know I've had 12 hour/4 leg days with 5 hrs (or less) block. Would be nice to get 6 hrs credit for those days. But to bring it back full circle, it simply means that pilot labor costs go up, the company won't just magically start making more efficient schedules because of being hamstrung by the being at the mercy of the major dictating the schedule, having to balance out the flying, etc. |
Not sure what would be better... At Mesaba during the bankruptcy, the company tried to both get rid of the 4 hr min day and put in PBS. Ultimately the negotiators gave up PBS to keep the min day pay.... I wasn't around during the pre min day pay days but I can say for sure PBS is a HUGE steaming pile of crap for 90+% of the group....
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The problem is if congress passes 10 hour min rest rules and reduced rest goes away, our MEM base is going to get screwed because we only have 3 banks. Unless half the trips are highspeeds they're going to have to start staging crews. Much less efficient trips. 28 hour overnights with zero pay.
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You guys are talking a good amount about a "min day", but missing duty and trip rigs.
A min day could cause the company to extend your first and last day to make sure they're not giving away 'free $', but it has no real effect on productivity for pilots, nor does it really increase QOL. A trip rig is a useless concept for regionals - the trips are too short for the rig to kick in. A duty rig is what regionals need, and what incentivizes your company to build more productive schedules and reduce your sit time. It allows for stand-up overnights too. The time in the hotel might get longer, but if you're going to be away from base anyway, you might as well spend more time in the hotel and less time sitting in the airport each day. APC did a great service to 'dumb down' rigs. Go here to check it out. Plug your schedule in and see what comes out. Remember, the goal of a rig is not to make $, but to incentivize the company to schedule you to fly while you're @ work. In an ideal world, the rig never kicks in. |
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
If I remember correctly, when AWAC got their big fat contract they had to give back shortly after 9/11, they negotiated trip/duty rigs, but they only applied to the middle days of multi day pairings, not the first/last day.
Originally Posted by AWAC 2001 CBA
C. Duty Pay/Trip Pay
When a pilot is assigned to duty by the Company, he will be paid the greater of the following: 1. One (1) hour of pay for every two (2) duty hours. 2. One (1) hour of pay for every three and one-half (3.5) trip hours. 3. Three (3) hours of pay for each calendar day or portion thereof a pilot is away from domicile (from the time commencing forty-five (45) minutes before scheduled domicile departure until fifteen (15) minutes after block-in at his domicile). This paragraph will not apply to a calendar day if the pilot was not scheduled to be on duty that day, but remained on duty because of unanticipated problems such as weather, mechanical, air traffic, and the pilot is released from duty no later than 0200 local time. 4. Actual flight time; or 5. Scheduled flight time. When computing trip value, the above calculations will be used and will apply to all scheduled and unscheduled operations.
Originally Posted by AWAC 2003 Concessionary CBA
2. Exceptions
a. Minimum Day Exception Either (but not both) the first day or the last day of any three- or four-day trip will be exempt from the minimum daily pay provision, provided the pilot is originally scheduled to check in at or after 1500L (if applied to the first day) or is originally scheduled to report off on or before 1200L (if applied to the last day). Instances in which the minimum day will not apply will be designated on the schedules. Example: A pilot is scheduled to check in at 1830 on the first day of a three- or four-day trip. He is scheduled for 2.5 block hours. No minimum day will apply on this day. The pilot will be credited with the greater of scheduled, actual, duty rig pay (if any), or trip rig pay (if any). Example: A pilot is scheduled to report off at 0930 on the last day of a three- or four-day trip. He is scheduled to fly 2 block hours. No minimum day will apply on this day. The pilot will be credited with the greater of scheduled, actual, duty rig pay (if any), or trip rig pay. Example: A pilot is scheduled to check in at 1830 on the first day of a three- or four-day trip. He is scheduled to fly for 2.5 block hours. On the last day of the trip, the pilot is scheduled to fly 2.5 block hours and is scheduled to report off at 0930 at his domicile. The Company may designate that the minimum day does not apply on either the first or last day of the trip, but not both. The “no minimum day” provision will be designated on the bid schedule and final bid award. This exception to the minimum day rule applies only to schedule construction, and will not be applied as a result of rescheduling that occurs during daily operations. For example, if a pilot was originally scheduled to check in at 1000, but due to a mechanical problem, his report time is delayed to 1515, the pilot will be credited with the greater of scheduled, actual, minimum day, duty rig pay (if any), or trip rig pay (if any). b. CDO Exception A CDO will not be subject to the minimum day (3.C.3.), duty rig (3.C.1.), or trip rig (3.C.2.). Each CDO will have a minimum value of five (5) hours. A pilot will be credited with the greater of scheduled flight time, actual, or five (5) hours for each CDO. c. Non-Rigged Trip (NRT) Exception After the regular lines are constructed in accordance with Section 25.E., the Company may designate up to five percent (5%) of the total time, by position, as trips that are not subject to the duty and trip rigs. These trips will be identified on the relief lines (if applicable), and in open time as non-rigged trips. Example: 1,000 block hours scheduled for ORD CL-65. No more than 100 hours (10% of the total block hours) may remain unassigned after the regular lines are constructed. No more than fifty (50) hours (5%) may be constructed into trips designated as NRTs. |
Originally Posted by Sniper
A trip rig is a useless concept for regionals - the trips are too short for the rig to kick in.
If you have a trip with 80hr TAFB, a 3.5:1 trip rig will earn you 22:51 in pay; a 4:1 trip rig earns you 20 hours. There were 4-day trips at AWAC back in 2007 that started early day 1 and finished late day 4 with 79-82hr TAFB and credited between 18-21hr pay. In many cases the 4:1 trip rig would have provided some additional credits, but the 3.5:1 trip rig would have really made a big difference. |
As an AWAC pilot I see how Trip & Duty Rigs work on a regular basis and all I can say is that I'm extremely grateful we have them.
Firstly, they force the company to build more efficient trips because they can't have you sitting around for free. And secondly, if you don't think they're worth having, have a look at some of your more screwed up trips (MX delays, CX'd flights, etc) and then apply the 2:1 Duty Rig or the 4:1 Trip Rig. Starts adding up very nicely. |
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 734763)
My company is efficient crew utilization wise for their purposes, but not from our point of view. By that I mean, it's more efficient to have us doing 12 hour days with sit times. It's opens up the length of the duty period to wedge in more flying . We're limited to a 13.5 hour day, but the norm is 12 to 12.5. If they cut the duty down for us to say 10 being the norm, they can't get 6-7 hours of flying in with our schedules. This comes into play with my point about the hotels........
What I was getting at was this with the hotels; If the day is more efficient for the pilot, say a 5.5 to 6 (average) hour day with only 8-9 nine hours of duty EVERY DAY, it may take 2.5 to 3 total crews on average to staff that airframes daily utilization. By making the duty day 12-13 hours with the 5.5 to 6 hours (on average) and 3-6 hours sit time, that airframe may only take 2-2.5 crews on average to staff. So you can have more crews in the hotels under the more pilot efficient way of doing it. Of course, that's all based on the overall average/spread of total utilization. |
Someone commented earlier that this would change the majority of our trips to 4 day trips.
What's wrong with that? Three 4 day trips a month equates to working 12 days out of a month. Four 4 day trips equates to working 16 days out of month. Not a bad deal. All I got for january was 10 days off......(twice for clarification) 10 days off.....(3rd time for impact) 10 Days off!!! After 4 years of working here. Is 12 days off too much to ask for? Is that greedy on my part to believe that 12 days off is fair? ****NOTE**** All crew schedulers and dispatchers at pinchanickle get 12 days off. They are home everynight, they work 4 10 hour shifts. So I ask again....is it too much to ask for that a pilot get the same? One 4 day trip a week? |
Originally Posted by Pinchanickled
(Post 734896)
Someone commented earlier that this would change the majority of our trips to 4 day trips.
What's wrong with that? Three 4 day trips a month equates to working 12 days out of a month. Four 4 day trips equates to working 16 days out of month. Not a bad deal. All I got for january was 10 days off......(twice for clarification) 10 days off.....(3rd time for impact) 10 Days off!!! After 4 years of working here. Is 12 days off too much to ask for? Is that greedy on my part to believe that 12 days off is fair? |
Originally Posted by Pinchanickled
(Post 734896)
Someone commented earlier that this would change the majority of our trips to 4 day trips.
What's wrong with that? Three 4 day trips a month equates to working 12 days out of a month. Four 4 day trips equates to working 16 days out of month. Not a bad deal. All I got for january was 10 days off......(twice for clarification) 10 days off.....(3rd time for impact) 10 Days off!!! After 4 years of working here. Is 12 days off too much to ask for? Is that greedy on my part to believe that 12 days off is fair? ****NOTE**** All crew schedulers and dispatchers at pinchanickle get 12 days off. They are home everynight, they work 4 10 hour shifts. So I ask again....is it too much to ask for that a pilot get the same? One 4 day trip a week? So to answer your question...just because a 4 year FO can hold 12-15 days off does not entitle you as a 4 year pilot but 1 year CA on the bottom of the CA seniority list to the same days off. |
Folks, it's simple. Min day/duty/trip rigs are protections. In a perfect world, they never pay out.
At ASA, typically day 1 and 4 of a 4-day are the 7-8 hour days. Days 2 and 3 are the low days. Before the min day, you'd routinely see a day in there that paid 1:30 or 2 hours. Kinda sucked. Now at least you get 3:45. However, you don't see too many days where you get credit for free. All the company does is manipulate the overnights so you get close to 3:45. Where you are protected with the min day are 30+ hour overnights. It's nice to get 3:45 of pay for sitting in a hotel. After all, you are doing that at the request of the company. Also, for reserve pilots, every time you show at the airport is 3:45. We've had reserves credit 100 hours who barely worked 75 hours of block. The duty rig is the same story. Ours at ASA pays 1:2 until 12 hours, then 1:1 afterward. The company, almost immediately, quit building trips that go over 12 hours of duty, mainly because they didn't want to pay the overtime rig. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer not to work any more than 12 hours of duty. The rare times that you have a 13:30 or 14 hour day (scheduled), you know you are getting paid regardless of how efficient your schedule is. For CDOs, it moved them from junk that mostly junior pilots flew to desirable trips that went senior. If a CDO ever makes it to open time, it's picked up quickly. Before, nobody picked up a CDO because most paid only 2 or 3 hours. Good for the company, because utilizing a reserve pilot for a CDO burns 2 of his days of availability to cover 2 legs. For a few ASA pilots to get on here and say that rigs don't matter, well, that's just a confirmation that they are working efficiently. In an ideal world, you'd never want to see the rig or min day pay out because that means your company isn't as efficient as they could be. |
I want to say that the trips Higney is describing is not the standard trip for all of our bases, or all of our seniority. This whole discussion started on our company board when I brought up that I have 10 days on my January schedule that are credited under 3 hours. While I also have days scheduled at almost 8 hours, the lower end is the normal. My last trip of the month is 81:20 TAFB and is worth 13:36 pay. Four deadheads on a four day trip doesn't credit us at Pinnacle very well when we only get 50% pay for the DH.
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Originally Posted by Sniper
(Post 734858)
A trip rig is a useless concept for regionals - the trips are too short for the rig to kick in.
Originally Posted by Sniper
(Post 734858)
A duty rig is what regionals need, and what incentivizes your company to build more productive schedules and reduce your sit time. It allows for stand-up overnights too.
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 734865)
The exceptions to the min day & trip/duty rig didn't come until the 2003 concessionary agreement.
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 734886)
I won't claim to know the continental route network but the DL/NW route system airframe utilization is only 7-9 hours a day depending on the month, season, and base. The idea that we could fly 5-6 hours in 8-9 hours really isn't realistic-
Memphis is a 3 bank system that allows for many 5 leg days equalling 8 hours block but it takes 12 hours to do it. Other bases are somewhat the same with 6 leg days existing in DTW and MSP. The point of discussion is if a crew is ABLE to do 8 hours of flying in a day there is only 1 crew that needs their rest, if the company tries to schedule everyone at a min day level (lets say 4 hours for the discussion) the 8 hour day that 1 crew could have done would now be 4 hours with a crew swap for the other crew to get their 4 hours. That results in 2 crews in the hotel, 2 crews getting per diem, and 2 crews who have inefficient days and 2 crews that will have to work even more days overall for the month to hit guarantee. And that's pretty much what I was getting at before. By shortening the duty day, it's more crews to staff that airframes daily utilization, driving up hotel costs.
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 734886)
I would venture to say that most trips are over any min day most days. The "senior" trips all seem to be 5-8 hours a day of block/credit. It's the 4 day trips with 3 efficient days and the one day with 2 one hour legs that a min day would hit.
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Originally Posted by IBPilot
(Post 734922)
Been at Pinnacle 4 years, still 10 days off.....I'm guessing you upgraded in the last year or 2. You did realize when you upgraded you start all over with the crappy 10 day off lines right? or was quick PIC the only thing on your mind?
So to answer your question...just because a 4 year FO can hold 12-15 days off does not entitle you as a 4 year pilot but 1 year CA on the bottom of the CA seniority list to the same days off. Hmmmmmmm, not sure what to think here? You sound like one of these senior lifers that say "you MUST pay your dues and have a terrible schedule.....because I did it back in the 80's......aarrrggghhh." It's not a question of whether or not it is part of paying your dues, part of seniority or anything else. It has only to do with ---- Is it FAIR? 10 Day off lines should be outlawed from all ALPA carriers. Did I really expect to have a glorious 18-20 day off line after I got off high minimums? NOOOO!!! But do I think two 3 day trips back to back, with 2 days off, then a 4 day trip, 2 days off, followed by a 4 day back to back with a 2 day is FAIR? NOPE! Is it FAIR that a senior pilots gets 18-20 days off ---YES!!! 12 days off should, with a good min day or rig will cause this airline to ACTUALLY STAFF THE AIRLINE CORRECTLY. Here's to getting a contract that can provide a LIVEABLE & FAIR schedule no matter where you are on the seniority list. Cheers & Happy New Year! |
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
(Post 734541)
Think twice about cheering for these new congressional proposals too.
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Motivation: safety and QOL, or greed?
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 734865)
. . . the drop in trip rig from 3.5:1 to 4:1 (counter to Sniper's assertion it doesn't help regionals much) was costing some pilots as many as TEN HOURS of pay per month due to the high TAFB/low credit nature of many of AWAC's 4-day parings back in 2007...
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 734866)
In many cases the 4:1 trip rig would have provided some additional credits, but the 3.5:1 trip rig would have really made a big difference.
The point of a rig is to incentivize the company to make your schedule better through the only incentive companies understand, monetary penalties. Do it right, and the penalties should hardly ever kick in, not "in many cases".
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 735035)
Not true, see Boiler's example, or the ones I've pointed out. In 2 of my company's domiciles, a trip rig would easily get more credit per month [than a duty rig].
The regionals are at the whim of the legacy(s) they feed for as far as the schedules go. All [a duty rig] would do is increase pilot labor costs. So, on one hand, a trip rig is better than a duty rig b/c a pilot would "easily get more credit per month", but, re: duty rigs, "All it would do is increase pilot labor costs"? Is your motivation to max out credit hours, or to prevent the company from having increased labor costs? Mine is neither - I want to increase pilot QOL and reduce opportunities for fatigue. A trip rig won't really do that @ the regionals, due to the nature of flying regionals perform. To the reader: how many regionals guys do you know that complain they sit in hotels their whole trip (trip rig will fix this) vs. have long duty days, but not much flying (duty rigs will fix this)? If you're looking to just pad your bank account, get a both a duty rig and a trip rig that are very restrictive - they'll always pay out. If you're a regional pilot (this is the 'regionals' forum, right?) looking to improve your schedule so you are home more often, have later shows and earlier finishes and given more opportunity to show up well-rested, a duty rig will do the most for the average regional pilot, not a trip rig, and not a min day. That's all I'm saying.:) |
Oh boy, round and round circular argument;
Originally Posted by Sniper
(Post 735217)
:confused:
So, on one hand, a trip rig is better than a duty rig b/c a pilot would "easily get more credit per month", but, re: duty rigs, "All it would do is increase pilot labor costs"? Is your motivation to max out credit hours, or to prevent the company from having increased labor costs? Mine is neither - I want to increase pilot QOL and reduce opportunities for fatigue. A trip rig won't really do that @ the regionals, due to the nature of flying regionals perform. To the reader: how many regionals guys do you know that complain they sit in hotels their whole trip (trip rig will fix this) vs. have long duty days, but not much flying (duty rigs will fix this)? If you're looking to just pad your bank account, get a both a duty rig and a trip rig that are very restrictive - they'll always pay out. If you're a regional pilot (this is the 'regionals' forum, right?) looking to improve your schedule so you are home more often, have later shows and earlier finishes and given more opportunity to show up well-rested, a duty rig will do the most for the average regional pilot, not a trip rig, and not a min day. That's all I'm saying.:) Second, which sector of the pilot spectrum do you work in? Are you currently at a "regional"? Have ever been at a "regional"? Have you ever been in at at "regional" in the post 9/11 environment? The reason I'm asking is because the points that are being made here by myself and others would make sense if you are/were. I'll say it AGAIN, the mantra that trip/duty rigs would "force" management to build more efficient schedules is pure crap, sorry, but that's just a reality of it. AGAIN, unlike at a major/LCC, the regional management DOESN'T have control of the schedule. Often times the block hour/utilization is very fluid on the seasonal and monthly basis. ALL I'm doing is presenting the OP with the point that he's probably hearing from his MEC, and the one that I've heard multiple times from the MEC's from the carriers I've been with. Look at Boiler's example of the concession they took on the rigs. Why? It'll drive up labor costs NOT "force" the company to schedule more efficiently and improve pilot QOL/paychecks. At the regionals, the profit margin is already so slim with the cutthroat management style as well as having to remain competitive to keep flying. Sure, it'll work for some, but they can't spread it out evenly among an entire pilot group. And YES, I know we're on a seniority system, but this stuff goes way beyond that. An NO, NOTHING about this is self defeating, again, it's the reality. If those FACTS can't be realized, sorry, don't know what to say. Like I said, I'm basing that on the arguments made from the pilot reps at the companies I've worked for, as well as my friends that worked as the pilot crew planning/line construction/scheduling reps. "That's all I'm saying" |
Originally Posted by Sniper
(Post 735217)
All I see here is an argument to increase crew costs and increase your income - there is no QOL or safety discussion here.
The point of a rig is to incentivize the company to make your schedule better through the only incentive companies understand, monetary penalties. Do it right, and the penalties should hardly ever kick in, not "in many cases". If the 3.5:1 trip rig was still in place, I guarantee the company wouldn't build parings of 80hr+ TAFB with less than 20 hours of block because of the monetary incentives (or penalty, depending on your perspective) they'd incur with the more restrictive rig - they'd make those trips more "efficient" when building them. I don't disagree with you that a duty rig would probably provide more benefit to regional airline schedules than a trip rig...but IMO having both trip AND duty rig prevent the company from cranking the ole' "optimizer" to 11 which ultimately provides pilots a fatter bank account AND as a byproduct will improve QOL due to paring construction. |
Originally Posted by Sniper
(Post 735217)
To the reader: how many regionals guys do you know that complain they sit in hotels their whole trip (trip rig will fix this) vs. have long duty days, but not much flying (duty rigs will fix this)?
I recently had a crew from a large Regional, although they now consider themselves a National, deadhead with us from DCA-PWM. The CA decided to sit in the JS to get an extra non-rev on and we talked about what the AWAC contract has in it. When we got to the Duty and Trip Rig part of the conversation, he said he didn't see how they would help. So I asked him about his day. These are guesstimates as I can't be bothered to look up the actual times but should prove the point. DCA-PWM, Deadhead blocked at 1.3. Paid half due to DH. Sit for 4 hours. PWM-PHL, blocked at 1.5. Paid full leg value. Sit for 2 hours. PHL-DCA, Deadhead blocked at 1.2. Paid half due to DH. So for the whole day they got around 3 hours of pay, wheras if they'd had a 2:1 Duty Rig, they'd have been paid around 5-6 hours of pay. Needless to say when I explained how much more he'd have been paid at AWAC, the light bulb went on. This is not about making any company pay us for the hell of it. It's about actually getting paid when you're at work. We are supposedly professionals, after all! |
I've never met an airline pilot that says "I wish we didn't have trip and duty rigs - they suck"
I've never met an airline pilot that says "I wish we didn't have a min-day - it sucks." DoJetDriver: Most of these regional airlines operate on a "cost plus" type of Aircraft Service Agreement. And besides, don't you think it's only "FAIR" to have atleast a 12 day off schedule? Here's an example, our current contract allows you to do Five 4-day trips per month. FIVE of 'em!! FIVE 4 DAY TRIPS / MONTH = SLAVERY |
Rigs (and other workrules) are good.
"Good" airlines have rigs. Bad airlines don't. |
The Prime Minister has spoken.
AMEN! |
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