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-   -   exhausting hours for meagre wages (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/47209-exhausting-hours-meagre-wages.html)

Lowlevel 01-12-2010 07:22 AM

Another example: First year regional FO (@$22), 50 seat aircraft, full flights, six legs, 8 hours block time = $0.58 per passenger.

Dan64456 01-12-2010 07:29 AM


Originally Posted by Lowlevel (Post 742552)
If every US airline raised ticket prices to what they really should be, I guarantee that people will still pay the price and fly. Loads may drop for a short while, but would pick back up. This is a mobile and global society, people need to travel by air to get business done and for other needs. An airline ticket should never cost less than it would cost you to drive somewhere. Example: JFK-MCO, 1106 miles and 17 hours of driving, given a car that gets 24 mpg, that is 46 gals. of gas (at $2.75= $126.73). Now determine what your time is worth, for this example, we will just use $7.25 per hour (minimum wage). Airline flight is 2 hours, so 15 extra hours of driving= $108.75. So, to drive would actually cost you $235.48 (not including depreciation on the vehicle, oil, etc). You can buy a ticket on an airline for $79.00. I know most people think their time is worth a lot more than minimum wage, but as you can see, even at minimum wage air travel is still way underpriced! I didn't even include a hotel room on the way for those that can't drive the whole 17 hours direct.
Really want to see how cheap airline travel is? Look at JFK-LAX! Only $99! Now, look at the drive: 2813 miles, 43 hours driving ($311.75), 117 gals of gas ($321.75), maybe 2 nights in hotels at $80 ($160)...$793.50 Total! (This is only counting the actual driving as time, if you want to add 8 hours each night in hotels....it's more)
I wish the airlines would stop being such pussies when it comes to raising airfare. Put the price where it should be, people will still fly. If you fly it, they will come.

My thoughts exactly... Good post!

stoki 01-12-2010 07:36 AM


Originally Posted by Lowlevel (Post 742552)
I wish the airlines would stop being such pussies when it comes to raising airfare. Put the price where it should be, people will still fly. If you fly it, they will come.

Which brings us to the next point. There are too may airlines, too much competition between them for a piece of the pie, and there are always a few that help keep the fares low by undercutting the competition and in turn making everyone else do the same, or lose.

Which brings us to yet the next point. Reregulation. :D

Cruise 01-12-2010 07:56 AM


Originally Posted by Lowlevel (Post 742570)
Another example: First year regional FO (@$22), 50 seat aircraft, full flights, six legs, 8 hours block time = $0.58 per passenger.


While I don't disagree with your line of thinking at all. It should be noted the 'actual' cost of an employee to the employer is approx. double the hourly rate. So, in your example, the FO would actually cost the company $44/hr....the 'hidden' expenses are in insurance, SSI, and stuff like that.

That being said, the actual cost per passenger is still PENNIES! Airline management should be ashamed of themselves for suggesting labor cost is dragging their business down.

TonyWilliams 01-12-2010 09:58 AM


Originally Posted by Lowlevel (Post 742552)
If every US airline raised ticket prices to what they really should be, I guarantee that people will still pay the price and fly......
Really want to see how cheap airline travel is? Look at JFK-LAX! Only $99! Now, look at the drive: 2813 miles, 43 hours driving ($311.75), 117 gals of gas ($321.75), maybe 2 nights in hotels at $80 ($160)...$793.50 Total!
I wish the airlines would stop being such pussies when it comes to raising airfare. Put the price where it should be, people will still fly. If you fly it, they will come.


The airlines aren't competing with cars. Sure, when Southwest started flying in Texas, they were. But, since the jet age, a trip from JFK to LAX doesn't.

They compete against other sources of travel, which are typically other airlines. In Europe, it's a good rail system that competes.

I just bought a ticket, SAN to JFK on JetBlue; $120. I threw in another $40 for a preferred seat. Unbelievably cheap. As long as there is a lot of competition (there is on this route), the price will be cheap in a free economy.

If I want to go to SAN to LAX tomorrow, which I can drive in less time than flying, the cheapest fare is $300.

Competition with cars really has no bearing.

TonyWilliams 01-12-2010 10:02 AM


Originally Posted by stoki (Post 742581)
Which brings us to the next point. There are too may airlines, too much competition between them for a piece of the pie, and there are always a few that help keep the fares low by undercutting the competition and in turn making everyone else do the same, or lose.

Which brings us to yet the next point. Reregulation. :D


And each pilot accepted the wage he/she receives. Not one was forced to do so.

I hope we never see a CAB again, and I seriously doubt we will, because like a national seniority list, and guaranteed wide body captain jobs for all pilots, it's a wet dream.

Zapata 01-12-2010 10:21 AM


Originally Posted by OldManReverend (Post 742477)
I like to take pride in things I do too, but don't tell me you joined this industry for other reasons like, good pay, benefits, and work rules?:eek:

Actually, among other reasons, that is precisely why I entered the industry. Currently, I am happy with my pay, bennies, work rules and QOL. (knock on wood)

hindsight2020 01-12-2010 10:53 AM


Originally Posted by Zapata (Post 742694)
Actually, among other reasons, that is precisely why I entered the industry. Currently, I am happy with my pay, bennies, work rules and QOL. (knock on wood)

I wish you well on your personal outcome, but the industry is NOT known for stable employment, competitive pay and "amicable" work rules, so your assertion is disingenuous. Ergo, people who willfully enter the working conditions as known to the median pilot are doing so for the non-economic valuation of getting paid in sunrises and sunsets. In that regard, it IS a hobby job.

Most of the mil dudes I know who are stuck at the regionals only do so because they got the retirement check coming every month and can afford to "spend their time" playing airline pilot. They don't even blink at the assertion. They are no less toxic to the stability of your said "profession" as the starry eyed wonder kid that slept through economics 101 and plunked down six figure debt for the "privilege" of a perma-sub-median-individual income hobby-job. For the rest of us with the required qualifications and a grounded understanding of the aforementioned maslow's hierarchy of needs, we take our skillset home and do something else with our time. Like the other poster alluded to, so that our kids don't have to eat ramen noodles just so I can get my pilot jollies off inside of banking hours.

But that recognition is as much of a pipedream as the re-regulation bit. People will continue to line up to get paid with an emotion and there's nothing you can do at an individual level to stifle that impetus. Cabotage will put an end to it though, at least as it pertains to the american labor pool, just like the cruise ships. Even regional guys and the retirement check crowd will not take a liking to this job when it's flown with a flag of convenience on the side of that aluminum can. There's no indication from my observations of the behavior of the FAA that they'll be able to 180 the airline lobby. So then, where is this job protectionism gonna come from? You, my "vocational peers"? Yeah right. Buffalo was a waste of innocent human lives, and even that fades quickly in our collective attention deficit disorder. I cringe at the idea of working for an organization where people have to die needlessly so that my peers can wake the hell up and recognize there's a social cost to doing things 'just because it sounds fun'.

Lowlevel 01-12-2010 11:57 AM


Originally Posted by TonyWilliams (Post 742683)
The airlines aren't competing with cars. Sure, when Southwest started flying in Texas, they were. But, since the jet age, a trip from JFK to LAX doesn't.

They compete against other sources of travel, which are typically other airlines. In Europe, it's a good rail system that competes.

I just bought a ticket, SAN to JFK on JetBlue; $120. I threw in another $40 for a preferred seat. Unbelievably cheap. As long as there is a lot of competition (there is on this route), the price will be cheap in a free economy.

If I want to go to SAN to LAX tomorrow, which I can drive in less time than flying, the cheapest fare is $300.

Competition with cars really has no bearing.

Notice I did say that ALL airlines need to raise prices. Usually you will see an airline cut fares, and the others follow. They all need to agree to raise prices in unison, or as said, re-regulate the industry.
The example of JFK-MCO is a good example of air vs. car, most families headed to Disney will either drive or fly.

dojetdriver 01-12-2010 12:36 PM


Originally Posted by dozer (Post 742378)
In the words of Jason Bourne, "Look what they make ya give."

Actually, those aren't Jason Bourne's words. He stole them from "The Professor" when he killed him.


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