Great point... Its a CRAPPY contract. I am not trying to compare MY CRAPPY regional to YOURS. Just point out the obvious that Mainline carriers should keep their flying and thus it would benefit us all. We know however it is one of those things you do not truley know the colors of until you work for the place.... The CRJ700/200 payscales are actually pretty close to those in the industry right now. But it is also a contract that was put together with rates for 2001 after the events of 9/11/2001. The fact that the rates are blended are a great thing for majority of the pilot group due to the fact if you fly the 200 (which we have the most of) you are getting a higher rate then you would if they were different pay rates.... But is flying a 700 for the rate of a 900 any different?

At the end of the day I would love our 700's to go to Mainline and be flown by them.... But that day probably wont ever happen.... So in the end perhaps a mute point. But I know that we are in contract talks and I for one will push for rates that are better then ASA and vote no on a TA that is anything less..... Much like this pilot group did when the 900's were offered with no pay raise... We said no and then RAH/MESA grew like mad.... But perhaps we should have just said yes to get flying and worry about the rates later huh? That would be smart? Oh wait no, no it wouldnt....

Lastly I believe Mesaba is still going to furlough more and will have more on the street.... I hope that is wrong and never happens but last I checked it appeared the Saabs were on the way out???

I figure I'll save IC ALL the trouble and remind anyone at ASA (and others) not wanting to listen to flame bait:

How to ignore a user: click on the users screen name, click on public profile, and add to ignore list.

On a serious note, where will the majority of their 900 routes be transferred to?

I'll give you the fact that your chart is close to industry but VERY manipulative. Your FO pay is more like 200 pay so your 700 FOs are getting short stacked. Your CA pay starts off like 700 pay but ends up like 200 pay so your 700 CAs get short stacked.

Did you ever look at MESA's and RAH's pay charts? Their 76 seat A/C's pay is much better, and so RAH/MESA grew. Their is no one to blame but PSA management for turning that down. (lose the sarcasm because I am definitely not blaming that on your pilot group)

AS OF RIGHT NOW ASA has more on furlough then Mesaba. Also you talk so much about other carriers, REMEMBER Mesaba didn't grow as rapidly until Delta started to shrink Comair. You are picking a fight with the wrong Airline.

My guess is SKYW will still fly them, just flow through ATL. Or perhaps deadhead crews to ATL, kind of like what ASA does with CVG.

how have you been, still down in florida?

I'm good, still in FL, going to UCF, should be graduating by the end of the year and then I'll start grad school to get my M.A. OLD and back in college... hahaha who woulda thought. :D How are things with you?

We dont fly 76 seat aircraft.... :) But at the end of the day we agree... All of our payscales are subpar to that of a Legacy such as Delta.... :( Which is why I was saying earlier I wish any reduction of SKY flying in and out of ATL might go back to Dad... And thus the whipsawing that Delta has been doing to all the DCI carriers might be reduced...

Mature??? Do as you wish and thanks for the tip incase I want to use it on you as well.... :) However I rather keep all my resources open...

It's like dogs chomping at scraps that fall from the table.

"But those are my scraps!" "I was allotted 80% of the scraps!"

Good gosh...

Perhaps if those of you who preceded us had minded the store as well as those who preceded you we would not be in this predicament.

I agree. The ball was set rolling long before my time... Which means now we've gotta figure a way out of this s__t spiral.

Guys like JoeMerchant and Pennenkamp dont exactly help the process either....

There is only one cure, and it lies not in our hands but yours:

http://w7eed.files.wordpress.com/200...ash-canada.jpg

I agree- but it's very simple answer that is actually a very complex issue and has gotten much worse thanks to 1113c... it's a matter of how to make the return of scope practical so that mgmt will go for it. They LOVE the whipsaw. Then you have guys like I mentioned that will fight tooth and nail from their end to try to not make it happen either out of sheer spite.

Edit:
We've got very "reasonable" rates for the CRJ-900 and mega jumble rumbler at mainline, and it would be cost viable... even with actually paying FO's a livable wage. The issue is how to negotiate to management for giving up that intangible benefit of pitting all the groups against each other.

Know what I mean?

You absolutely do.... Its not AMAZING but its a lot better then what is out there currently. With that you add to it Jetblues rates on an E190 DAL would have a great chance of bettering their rates in the future on E190/CRJ900 aircraft (since right now if they ever came to DAL they are on the same scale). But how to recapture that scope is the question.

I do agree this is not a problem of those whom are currently flying for the regionals (or a majority of them). Most came after the damage was done and were not part of tearing things apart. But it does not help if those whom could assist in getting scope back in check, are not willing to because it might hurt their short term gain.... The inability to LOOK into the long term gain seems to always get ignored.... :(

Wrong. Check your facts. Mesaba was awarded 5 -900's that were jerked around the whole delta connection system. I guess you are considering rapid growth those two garbage pile -200's that we use as spares.

Don't blame the dogs for congregating, blame the ones dropping the scraps from the table for attracting them.

Wow meyers, wow. Getting a little unstable over there buddy. Calm down.

No just annoyed over this mentality of us regional pilots claiming that flying is "OURS." Hearing it at my company, hearing it at others, and again hearing it today with ASA and a few of your fellow pilots on here. I disagree totally. The flying belongs to the name that comes before connection/express and always will... :) But guess some just dont want to use basic logic to agree with that. 80% or what not we should want to have the flying back to Mainline is all I was saying... AND somehow a couple of your fellow co-workers twisted that all around and got it to a my crappy regional is better then yours blah blah blah.... :)

Oh well... Great news, I HOPE ASA gets this flying and gets their 80%!!!!

I do blame the dogs that have the strong desire to keep congregating and will fight for the scraps to keep falling (like yourself).

Only because I am curious. How can you say you hope mainline takes the 700 flying (and I assume the 900 flying)...and in the same post say you hope Mesaba doesn't end up furloughing any more?

You know there are regional lifers out there. Don't expect the ones that have decided to stay at a regional (for various reasons, all of which are not up for debate) to agree with sending their "jobs" back to mainline.

You and I may agree it all needs to get back, but that may ignore the reality of why we were spun off in the first place.

You know how people get man, especially round here. I wouldn't waste much more of your time man.

You don't know me and know nothing about me.

Simple, staple the pilots along with the airplanes. No jobs lost, just a bunch of additional pilots on the mainline seniority list. Give me a mainline number and take the 900 back. Even if I then go back to the right seat, at least there it's a nearly livable wage. When I go back here I'll be having to bid around a second job again.

Ha Ha. That's what we thought when Delta bought us. Good luck with that.

You blasted furloughees from your own company for expressing unhappiness over the process and you consistently insult anyone on this forum who doesn't fully agree with your position. How else did you want to be known?

That had to do with the person whom posted that ASA currently has more furloughs the XJ. I was just trying to point out that Mesaba still has FURLOUGHS coming when more Saabs are being parked here soon. And thus there are other companies whom are hurting far worse then even ASA such as Mesaba, Comair, Xjet etc etc...... It was different from my desire for the Majors to recapture their scope and get the flying back... Sorry for the confussion.

+1. I agree 100%. Mesaba will be losing all 48 Saabs in the next couple of years and that means roughly 480 pilots will be furloughed during the same period. Mesaba has already furloughed over 150 pilots and is continuing to furlough pilots even as we speak.

We should not be squabbling over who gets what scrap thrown by slave masters. In the long run, DAL changes its mind on a daily basis, so it's a complete waste of time trying to predict what DAL management will do next, unless you are privy to the RA inner circle of overpaid greedy executives.

I agree that all DAL flying should go back to the mainline. I also agree with Avroman that the solution is simple. Just staple all Mesaba, Comair, Compass pilots along with CRJ9 flying to DAL. But like 80kts said, how do we present a convincing argument to the DAL management that stapling would make business sense.

I personally don't think (nor hope) scope will ever be recaptured. I believe it will only increase with the advent of the CRJ-1000.

I would hate to see the (mainline) airline pilot world price itself out of a job just like the automakers by making way too much for the product they produced.

Now this is a scope recapture that I could agree with.:)

*yawn*

No, I blasted you for constantly whining about it and blaming others. Just you. And you are NOT representative of the other furloughees I have contact with, since they seem to refrain from constantly whining about it. I was involved with setting up the private fund, which is currently helping the new furloughees who were excluded from the union check. So quit running your mouth since you have no idea what you're talking about, as usual.

Speaking of which, 80 clamp is referring to the RJDC/DALPA issue which you probably haven't been around long enough to understand. He is mistakenly lumping me in with Joe Merchant as one of the "regional lifers" who "sued the union over scope", none of which is true.

As for insults... hello pot, meet the kettle.

That's the problem. We have been working for this since the year 1999 when Delta bought Comair, and then ASA. The problem is that while DALPA has the power and capital to force DAL management to do it, they see no value in such. They don't think it's worthwhile to waste it on us (insert slam against regional pilots here _________.) They always fall back on "we just can't force management to do it". Sure they can. They will just have to give something up to recapture the flying. They retort that WE would be giving nothing and getting a windfall, so it's "not fair" that they should give, and not us. But WE really don't have anything to offer, except seats on the RJs, which they don't want. See the circular logic? That's why it will never happen, despite the fact that it really is the only way to put the RJ genie back in the bottle. THAT'S the value to them.

I see what you are saying. I did not know that DALPA has the power to actually make it happen. I thought the ball was all on the management's side of the court. Oh well, it was a wishful thinking anyway. I don't think it will happen either because pilots in control of DALPA don't want to give up anything for junior pilots.

Anything can be negotiated for the right price. It would require DALPA agreeing to fly the RJ for a cost structure similar to (albeit higher than) ours. They won't agree to that.

And you hit the nail on the head about the senior/junior thing. They have a huge divide over there, even though they don't like to admit it. The senior pilots are most worried about pay, retirement and equipment (more heavies). The junior pilots are most worried about scope erosion. The senior control DALPA, so guess what... scope keeps getting sold for what they want.

What are you talking about JOHN! DALPA has a payscale for the CRJ900/E190 already... And its FAR better then any regional out there. Albeit not up to pay with Jetblues just yet.....

Although I am going to agree with you on the Junior/Senior statement. It would seem as if the Junior pilots were the ones whom pushed to staple even recently Compass to the bottom and regain those planes... All for not obviously.

Reading and comprehension. Try again. You just don't get it.

YES they have a pay scale for the CRJ-900 and from your post yesterday (which you didn't cite sources, and I have yet to verify) it's actually a LOT higher than ours. (Also nothing below that size... what about 50-70 seats?) That's why it's a non-starter with management. They are going to have to "lower the bar" as you said and fly them for less to recapture that flying. Now is that really lowering the bar? If you look at the big picture, no, because by recapturing that domestic feed, the airline grows, and the compensation will increase. But pilots tend to look at the small picture, not the big picture.

Actually, those rates are accurate for EMB-190/CRJ-900 and are from 1/1/10. The EMB-195 rates are $18 to $19 higher. My source? My copy of the PWA in front of me.


There is no rate for the 50-70 seaters since they are already outsourced. That horse has left the barn. I seriously doubt that you will see a 50-70 seater flown at mainline. About the only thing to do is not allow anymore airframes to be flown by DCI and totally prevent anything bigger from leaving the property.

But that's what we're discussing here... how to get it all back to mainline (stapled lists).

I guess I was under the impression we were ONLY speaking about the CRJ900. Although I'd love the see the CRJ700 I fly from time to time go back as well, as mentioned that horse has been let out of the barn and will be hard to get back. Simply saying to staple us to the bottom will solve the issue will not do. There are far TOO many Senior pilots even at ASA/Comair/Mesaba whom would not be ok being stapled to the bottom of any list.....

FYI I do not put BS out there... If I say DAL has a better payrate for a plane, they have it. Otherwise I will not post something or FLAIMBAIT something.... It is not my style.... I hold the information on DAL and many other airlines as to what they currently make and will make in the future as far as equipment.... Ask around many copies are not hard to find and most pilots are willing to share it in hopes to improve things for US all...

Wow!!! Meyers and Pennekamp have come close to an agreement... Ever pilot in the regionals thats not a lifer would rather prefer to see the larger RJ stapled at the bottom of mainline any day.....I don't want to stay on the CRJ 900 as a regional pilot, but I will take the right seat of the same aircraft at mainline ..... far better work rules!!

Oh so the atl Skywest base is closing in march? :rolleyes: