I'm not sure exactly what the deal is with the Minneapolis FSDO except apparently they worship at the altar of automation, basically their viewpoint is that you should operate at the highest level of automation available at all times. Or so I'm told, I didn't ever go to the FSDO to ask them.
xjcaptain; I know you CAN handfly at XJ, I was just observing that most don't. I found that odd based on my previous airline experience. Also I know that the RNAV departure autopilot requirement is an XJ op spec, previously I hand flew RNAV departures with the FD. None of that is an indictment of XJ, I love it. Just pointing out my experience.

No indictment assumed.:) I for one encourage the FO's I fly with to hand fly as much as they like. I've had several less than enjoyable experiences when some were in a position where they had to hand fly, and had great difficulty with it. With practice, the passengers shouldn't be able to tell if the AP is on or off. (And anyone who has flown the CRJ can attest to how smoothly the AP will track a localizer). Nearly any instrument student should be able to do it more accurately and smoothly than this AP can if there is more than about 3 knots of crosswind for it to figure out!

On an aside, I believe the reason our FSDO used to be so hardcore about automation usage was their concern for the level of experience of many (not all) of our new hires when we hired so much a couple of years back. Now that hiring has stopped, and the lower time pilots have had some time to gain experience (sometimes at our passengers expense) they have loosened the guidance, to allow more hand-flying.

It is the case...In the mitigation of risk, we rely on the government, our employer, and the unions to make aviation safe. Like I said, in 121 ops we are baby sat and in most situations our hands are tied. This is not a poke at the captain, it's just the way it is. If we all did not assume a certain amount of risk, we would not fly airplanes. We would not drive cars. We would not walk down the street.

If you don't like the way an MEL item is executed, change it.

##-##-##
Inopertive Autopilot

1) Operational Requirements

1)Day operations only
2)Ceiling greater then 1000'
3)Blah blah blah........

The reason these were not stated on the MEL??? Because in the opinion of the FAA and the company, these restrictions are not required for safe operations.

If you don't think the MEL is written with safety in mind......Write an ASAP report, write a NASA report, consult your director of safety, address your union safety committee. If you believe something is unsafe, be proactive before the situation presents itself. Just don't leave the passangers and the company in a bind. Have you done any of these things? Are you going too?....By the way, IMO I think many of the people that refuse to fly without an opertive autopilot are plain lazy. I'm not saying this was the case in this situation, but in many I have witnessed.

Umm... what about personal accountability? It's impossible to have a regulation in place to govern every possible situation. If that were the case, why would pilots even be necessary?
Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's safe.

Man, am I glad a lot of you don't represent me in a union capacity.

uhm yeah, that's precisely the problem. we are talking the same FAA that allows 16 hr duty days and 8 hr reduced "rest" right? and as for our employer, this is pinnacle mgmt we are talking about... the same mgmt that I work under, the same mgmt that still does things like giving me a warning for being too sick to fly a few weeks ago. rely on my employer to make aviation safe, yeah GOOD ONE! :rolleyes:

I only fly a old beat up BE1900 , NO AUTO PILOT , And Blocked 8.2 hours yesterday with 3 approaches down to minimums. 2 ILS's and one sh*t old off set VOR no DME approach.

Dont get me wrong the day sucked and I hope to aviod days like this in the future. And sure I am not flying a RJ , but man I dont think I would refuse the flight and get caught up on managments sh*t side only to get susspended.

Good luck to that captain, Hope ALPA can come through for you.

You fly an old beat up 1900 with no autopilot every day. You're arguably more proficient at both hand-flying and instrument flying than any modern jet pilot in this country. That said, your jumbo King Air is a much more stable (and much lesser performing) platform than any swept-wing RJ, which typically spends a good portion of a flight in RVSM airspace.

You are safer hand-flying your 1900 than any RJ pilot hand-flying his/her airplane because of PROFICIENCY. You do it every leg every day - jet pilots might, on average, hand-fly 20 minutes per leg.

It may not be a matter of can or cannot perform, but rather one of prudence and safety - after all, "A man's gotta know his limitations".

Bingo, BoilerUp. My last day hauling checks came with 4 approaches (raw data, 2 non-precision, all to minimums) single pilot with no FD or HSI (cross-checking a precessing DG with a tiny CDI is REAL raw-data, you sissies!). I did it all without blinking, but would seriously think twice about the same now.

I'm one of the guys who loves to turn off the toys and fly the E-Jet like a big 172, but my proficiency level at raw-data hand flying is far different now than when I did it several legs every day. Kudos to the CA here for actually exercising that authority.

This reminds me of the packs and apu dilema. There are a good majority of the days that at an outstation there is no need for an apu or air conditioning packs running, some days where it's very comfy to have an apu with air on the ground, and then there are days where the temp is 98 and with no apu or a single pack the cabin is 130F and you are transporting 50 people (15 of which are senior citizens going to a 50th wedding anniversary). Is the plane airworthy? SURE! Is in smart= NO. A 121 CA is a risk manager. I flew the same raw data approaches, and with 3k hours in a crj I have no problem handflying every leg. Is it smart? Not always. Automation is used as a resource- not a convenience. Until you are a 121 CA with mom, grandma, and sis in the back you can play macho man- or you can deal with each flight in the interest of safety and only safety.

And yes, the beer made me say it.