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RAH buys up 80 C-Series
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Awesome, great for you guys!
(Said with sarcasm.) |
Every major could make the jet work at mainline, but they do not want to be stuck with ALL not just pilots, mainline costs when the first major carrier gives it away. That is why most will not move on it.
So that is Trans States Republic with 100 seat orders. Mainline Zero. I guess they know something we don't |
..... and the race to the bottom just picked up a little more speed.
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Enough with the garbage guys. RAH is moving toward a Mainline status. Frontier and Midwest were steps in that direction. Now, these aircraft seemed to be another piece of the puzzle. RAH will not be flying these aircraft for Delta or Airways or anyone like that. It will be for themselves.
Was there not a time when the SWA guys got bashed because they were "cheap". Things change guys. Give it a chance to succeed or fail, but at least give it a chance. |
I wouldn't worry too much. I don't think these are going to be fixed-fee codeshare aircraft. Bedford said recently that they were looking at aircraft to replace some of the Frontier Airbus birds as the leases expire.
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Well the Frontier guys just found their replacement. I bet the pay will be no where near the A320 rates.
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Wow, they must have agreed to slip more into a certain person's offshore bank account than Embraer was willing to do.:) 2015 should be about the same time as the SLI comes out. It's amazing that they think they will be around that long.
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Originally Posted by G-Dog
(Post 769097)
Enough with the garbage guys. RAH is moving toward a Mainline status. Frontier and Midwest were steps in that direction. Now, these aircraft seemed to be another piece of the puzzle. RAH will not be flying these aircraft for Delta or Airways or anyone like that. It will be for themselves.
Was there not a time when the SWA guys got bashed because they were "cheap". Things change guys. Give it a chance to succeed or fail, but at least give it a chance. |
Originally Posted by indapit
(Post 769102)
Well the Frontier guys just found their replacement. I bet the pay will be no where near the A320 rates.
Everyone would have preferred an Airbus order, but now we have five years to work on an acceptable pay rate. Our LOA actually included the Cseries, nice job again FAPA, and an order away from the Airbus is also why our CBA required a MSL. Not the best news ever, but also not the worst. |
I'll agree with a couple of the posters above: innocent until proven guilty is how I look at it.
2015 is a ways off and the union has time to negotiate a fair, equitable, standard (or better) mainline rate for a mainline aircraft. I will give their pilots the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Only time will tell. |
Originally Posted by Dougdrvr
(Post 769105)
Wow, they must have agreed to slip more into a certain person's offshore bank account than Embraer was willing to do.:) 2015 should be about the same time as the SLI comes out. It's amazing that they think they will be around that long.
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Originally Posted by aerosurfer
(Post 769132)
UMMMM yeah... SLI May 31 at the latest per the arbitrator. But hey keep trying.
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Mark my words....RAH with this plane will change the industry!!!! Again! I am not saying for the better.
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Originally Posted by Sambo1
(Post 769144)
Mark my words....RAH with this plane will change the industry!!!! Again! I am not saying for the better.
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Maybe you are taking this wrong. I am talking about companies like Air Tran, Southwest, Virgin America will have a hard time competing with an airframe that is 20% cheaper. Companies will have to trim pay, benefits..etc. My son is a Capt. at Shuttle America. I wish RAH well.
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At least the Midwest guys will have some planes to come back to eventually. Hopefully they don't defer 30 seats and make the pay the same as the 190.
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In case you haven't figured it out yet, this industry was going downhill way before RAH came around. Mainline pilots have done nothing but pull the ladder up behind them. I used to get really irritated at all the crap mgmt did at RAH. Once I realized that this would be (in all likelyhood) my last airline...I figure, what the hell...I'd rather they do what's best for me and my company then what's helpful to you and your company.
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in the interim, it'll be interesting to see what happens with their contracts with current mainline carriers who just financed the creation of a major low cost competitor.
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 769091)
Every major could make the jet work at mainline, but they do not want to be stuck with ALL not just pilots, mainline costs when the first major carrier gives it away. That is why most will not move on it.
So that is Trans States Republic with 100 seat orders. Mainline Zero. I guess they know something we don't The big problem is if they set up some regional pay scale for them so that IF we ever order them we have that set up first to compare. Lets be honest, they dont have a very good track record on producing decent payrates for their aircraft....:cool: |
The Republic pilots will NEVER see a substantial raise. Bedford tried to start up Republic during last contract negotiations to whipsaw like Tran States/Gojets and Mesa/Freedom. This is the type of person he is. He parked every single plane on the Midwest operating certificate to get rid of the expensive Midwest pilots. You guys are dreaming if you think Republic is going to become a major airline. He's creating hubs in Denver against United and Southwest and Milwaukee against Airtran, Delta, and Southwest. It's been proven in history that a hub can only support two airlines. This might seem far-fetched to you Republic pilots, but I will not be surprised if Bedford files for bankruptcy before you guys ever see a new contract. I keep getting told by Republic pilots that Bedford is ordering new Airbuses. I highly doubt that given his history. Your first officers top out at $37/hour. No one is upgrading. The feed contracts will be dropped by the mainline partners as they expire. The growth at Republic is gone. I'm not sure why you guys are so optimistic. You must know something that I don't.
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 769164)
in the interim, it'll be interesting to see what happens with their contracts with current mainline carriers who just financed the creation of a major low cost competitor.
YouTube - Doug Parker on RAH |
Originally Posted by TrojanCMH
(Post 769158)
At least the Midwest guys will have some planes to come back to eventually.
Just don't let management call these things RJs. |
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
(Post 769168)
The Republic pilots will NEVER see a substantial raise. Bedford tried to start up Republic during last contract negotiations to whipsaw like Tran States/Gojets and Mesa/Freedom. This is the type of person he is. He parked every single plane on the Midwest operating certificate to get rid of the expensive Midwest pilots. You guys are dreaming if you think Republic is going to become a major airline. He's creating hubs in Denver against United and Southwest and Milwaukee against Airtran, Delta, and Southwest. It's been proven in history that a hub can only support two airlines. This might seem far-fetched to you Republic pilots, but I will not be surprised if Bedford files for bankruptcy before you guys ever see a new contract. I keep getting told by Republic pilots that Bedford is ordering new Airbuses. I highly doubt that given his history. Your first officers top out at $37/hour. No one is upgrading. The feed contracts will be dropped by the mainline partners as they expire. The growth at Republic is gone. I'm not sure why you guys are so optimistic. You must know something that I don't.
agreed this will just further the resolve of the competition to keep putting more and more pressure on RAH. . |
I guess you can find friends when you're poking one of their competitors in the eye but when you poke all of the competitors in the eye it'll be pretty hard to find a friend.
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Originally Posted by TrojanCMH
(Post 769158)
At least the Midwest guys will have some planes to come back to eventually. Hopefully they don't defer 30 seats and make the pay the same as the 190.
Within the next few years the midwest guys will be taken care of by companies far more ethical and experienced than Republic. If you work for republic, try not bending over backwards with garbage pay rates just because its a "big jet", or we are all doomed... |
Originally Posted by atp409
(Post 769180)
Within the next few years the midwest guys will be taken care of by companies far more ethical and experienced than Republic. If you work for republic, try not bending over backwards with garbage pay rates just because its a "big jet", or we are all doomed...
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Yet another reason to look outside of this industry.
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Delta has seen this coming for a while... and as soon as RAH starts self branded flying, Delta will go through the legal process to drop their contract and remove them from all Delta flying due to the conflict of interest clause. Then after Delta drops them, they will muscle them out of the industry. Self branded flying will be the beginning of the end for RAH.
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Originally Posted by atp409
(Post 769180)
Within the next few years the midwest guys will be taken care of by companies far more ethical and experienced than Republic. If you work for republic, try not bending over backwards with garbage pay rates just because its a "big jet", or we are all doomed...
Sure Republic has been the black eye of the industry for the last couple years but the downward spiral that this industry is in started back before Republic even existed. Republic is just a small piece of the crappy 121 puzzle. Now if the pilots at RAH don't unite and demand a decent major contract I'll quit. |
Continued outsourcing.
Pure and simple outsourcing! Heck even the manufacturer of the jet knows what it is. Spare me the self branding BS.
<b>http://www.bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/BCA_2009_Market_Forecast.pdf</b> While the rate of capacity reductions is expected to slow, US mainline carriers will continue to remove older aircraft from their fleets. Scope clauses will be challenged as mainline carriers continue to look for more optimization opportunities through regional carrier outsourcing. An important component of mainline carrier crew labour agreements are scope clauses. These negotiated clauses define restrictions on the type, number and size of aircraft that may be flown by regional airline partners. Scope clauses are found in both the US and Europe, but are most restrictive in the US. Historically, scope clauses have been a barrier to outsourcing. However, scope clauses are considerably less restrictive than they were historically, and are permitting regional carriers to fly more and larger regional aircraft. It is predicted that over the next 20 years, scopes clauses will evolve, permitting 100-seat aircraft to be flown by regional carriers, and play a central role in reshaping the makeup of the industry. The mix of the deliveries, 5,800 turboprops and jets in total, will be strongly influenced by mainline carrier scope clauses as they evolve to permit improved network capacity optimization. On a cost basis, regional airlines operating large regional aircraft have proven to be very competitive even compared to LFCs flying larger narrow body aircraft. (LFC = Low Fare Carrier = Southwest) |
Originally Posted by aerosurfer
(Post 769132)
UMMMM yeah... SLI May 31 at the latest per the arbitrator. But hey keep trying.
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Originally Posted by Sambo1
(Post 769144)
Mark my words....RAH with this plane will change the industry!!!! Again! I am not saying for the better.
All of these sound good to the accuser but they will not abide the coming economic storm. We had our bailout after 9/11 ($5B) and it still resulted in BK and mergers. That just postponed the inevitable. Mark my words, you ain't seen nothing yet. The pressure put on airlines to have a similar cost structure has just been ratcheted up by a factor of 3. 10 years and you won't recognize the place. |
Originally Posted by mwa1
(Post 769210)
10 years and you won't recognize the place.
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Rj?
How did a thread about a 138 seat airplane ordered by a 2.5 billion dollar per year company get moved from the majors to the regionals? Every one of us needs to make sure these airplanes are never called RJs. The moderators here could help with that too. As someone already mentioned, Frontier already has decent payrates for these, and Midwest did too, if any part of our contract can be resurrected from the trash bin.
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If F9 doesn't get SLI they will be YX in the near future- Loenzo's legacy, repeated.
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Originally Posted by AAflyer
(Post 769201)
Pure and simple outsourcing! Heck even the manufacturer of the jet knows what it is. Spare me the self branding BS.
<b>http://www.bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/BCA_2009_Market_Forecast.pdf</b> While the rate of capacity reductions is expected to slow, US mainline carriers will continue to remove older aircraft from their fleets. Scope clauses will be challenged as mainline carriers continue to look for more optimization opportunities through regional carrier outsourcing. An important component of mainline carrier crew labour agreements are scope clauses. These negotiated clauses define restrictions on the type, number and size of aircraft that may be flown by regional airline partners. Scope clauses are found in both the US and Europe, but are most restrictive in the US. Historically, scope clauses have been a barrier to outsourcing. However, scope clauses are considerably less restrictive than they were historically, and are permitting regional carriers to fly more and larger regional aircraft. It is predicted that over the next 20 years, scopes clauses will evolve, permitting 100-seat aircraft to be flown by regional carriers, and play a central role in reshaping the makeup of the industry. The mix of the deliveries, 5,800 turboprops and jets in total, will be strongly influenced by mainline carrier scope clauses as they evolve to permit improved network capacity optimization. On a cost basis, regional airlines operating large regional aircraft have proven to be very competitive even compared to LFCs flying larger narrow body aircraft. (LFC = Low Fare Carrier = Southwest) Good find AAF, just want to point out that all contracts regardless of industry have a "scope of the agreement" section. sometimes I think that many interpret "scope" as something peculiar to seat numbers. |
Originally Posted by 3XLoser
(Post 769216)
How did a thread about a 138 seat airplane ordered by a 2.5 billion dollar per year company get moved from the majors to the regionals? Every one of us needs to make sure these airplanes are never called RJs. The moderators here could help with that too. As someone already mentioned, Frontier already has decent payrates for these, and Midwest did too, if any part of our contract can be resurrected from the trash bin.
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It sounds like the only good job in the Airlines over the next few decades will be in upper management.
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 769091)
Every major could make the jet work at mainline, but they do not want to be stuck with ALL not just pilots, mainline costs when the first major carrier gives it away. That is why most will not move on it.
Just trying to clarify what you're saying above. |
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