I asked him. He fully recognized how divisive this issue was for our pilots. Although I wasn't able to talk long with him, my understanding is that, once the company issued their grievance, the MEC should have ceased any further action on the issue until those actions played out.
Influence, yes. The President of the United States can influence Congress, but Congress holds the purse strings, Congress holds the votes and Congress produces the legislation. It is cowardly for any Congressman who votes for a piece of legislation to turn around and blame the President for it. Same goes, IMHO, for any MEC member who places the Chairman for their vote on an LOA. IMHO, if our MEC members/LEC reps have so little backbone, then a more worthy representative should be found.

BTW, I've found that it is better to spread myself across several websites rather than confine my efforts to the little pond (cesspool? http://forums.artofwarcentral.com/im...lies/demon.gif) at the Eaglelounge.

I was unaware that it was the LEC members who devised, composed and enacted the series of resolutions and the chair looked on quietly. Resolutions that (right or wrong) drag the MEC chair into the gutter.


My understanding is that you don't splash around in that cesspool at all anymore. It was said you had a tiff with a moderator, the owner and refused to ante up the $5 annual fee.

No judgement there though as I'm not aware of the pirticulars. I'm curious though, how that tiff with the AEPA and the Sith Lords is going.

Are they (he) still persuing you or has that been resolved ?

Man, you can have the politics debate. It turns into he said she said and folks get to emotional on these boards. I read, may give a newbe some advice, and always looking for a job.

This crap shouldn't be discussed here anyway because we always get someone elses two cents who has no clue of even what planet they are on.

Have fun.

I'm unaware of that too. I'm also unaware of how many pilots in our Union don't have a frickin' clue on how their own union works.

What I am aware of is the number of pilots who attend both MEC and LEC meetings. On average, it's less than 10 in the peanut gallery with me at MEC meetings and about 5 out of 900 at the LEC meetings. Maybe if our pilots attended more meetings, they'd have a better understanding of how our Union works. Even teleconferences, which have proven to be very popular, usually average about 100 listeners out of 2800. Given that 2/3's of our pilots are working and completely unavailable (although we know some are in hotels or on sits), that still leaves over 700 pilots who don't give a **** about what their own union is doing. This wouldn't bother me except when they chime in with their opinions on unions matters which reveals their deep cluelessness on how our union operates and functions.

That's correct. Once my membership expired last year, I ceased splashing around in there.

Yes, the Sith Lords are still active. Mostly they keep dragging it out with various motions and fishing expeditions which only serves to cost me more money ($8500 so far) since there is nothing to find. My lawyer keeps pushing for a summary judgment since the Sith Lords have consistently failed to provide even a shred of proof that they were wronged. The depositions and other statements are on the web. Search around and read it for yourself. It'd be pretty funny if it wasn't costing me so much money and, IMHO, wasting donations of a hundred or so Eagle pilots on a frivolous pursuit.

Politics? Maybe I don't understand your point. Please explain. You resent the fact some supposedly non-Eagle pilot comments on our union but you don't want to discuss our union. Is this correct? Why are you even on these forums if you don't think this "crap shouldn't be discussed here anyway"?

You're right...you win

I'd love winning! Seriously though, I'd rather you and I were more in agreement at union meetings rather than debating things with others on an internet forum. Heck, even if we debated and disagreed at a meeting, it'd still be an improvement to the status quo. Our number one problem at Eagle isn't senior pilots, representatives with an agenda or nefarious groups run by Sith Lords. Our number one problem is a virtual complete lack of concern by the majority of our pilots as to what their own union is doing.

Remember all the contention of the DFW recalls and elections two years ago? The misleading petition, the spurious rumors and misinformation, the highly contentious meetings? Out of 900 DFW pilots, only 40 or less pilots bothered to attend those meetings and only about 200 bothered to vote in the nominations, elections and other related votes. 200 out of 900. Pretty pathetic, right? So what do you think our biggest problem is at Eagle?

Poster #12 can go on eaglelounge and read the 30 some pages of arguments. The 20/80 split, I think you are overly generous. The number I pull out of my arse is around 6/94. As for being part of the division, guilty as charged if you mean that there are two (possibly three) opposing views and I've voted for officials that support my point of view, although I don't agree with the notion that this issue is as divisive as some might suggest. Come back to the lounge, it's a good ol' time.

I'm not on the Eaglelounge, so you're suggestion is useless.

How did you arrive at your number for the split? I used 20/80 due to the ratio of 500/2300.

As anyone can see, you and I are disagreed on the rightfulness of union pilots pushing other union pilots out the door regardless of the numerical split between those in the majority or minority. Do you not see the danger associated with such an action? How do you know it won't be your turn next time? What happens if you force yourself into a fast upgrade so you can go to airline XYZ only to find out that they, too, have taken your idea and have voted to kick you out the door so they can have a bigger pay raise? If there is no unity, there is no union.

The few FTs I've spoken with, 3 of 4 that still intends to go told me that they never thought they had a choice to not go when they elected FT. The other one says he doesn't really remember. 2/2 FTs that wants to stay at eagle after not electing eagle rights told me that flowing was an option when the time comes.

Anyways, I figured 200/500 FTs no longer wish to go, 50/500 are iffy, and 250/500 are going no matter what. So 200/2800 are the only ones adamant that flowing was an option. + another 50 or so in the sympathetic group. So I get 7%-11%. Of course now that it's determined that the 244 are "slots". There are FTs in the butt end of that 500 that figured if people aren't forced to keep their commitment, they might flow quicker. So I guess you can skew the percentage more your way.

What commitment? I'm still waiting for you to point out where pilots are required to flow or signed any kind of contract or statement of commitment. If you are lack such proof, then what do you base your attempts for force pilots out of their seats, out of their jobs and out of this union?

beagle,
they are talking out the back side again. they dont even know there own contract. they fail to realize that ALPA agreed that all pilots who bid the jet will be flow throughs as Letter 3 states. The moment you bid the jet and complete ioe you get a number. ALPA signed the deal for us, they agree to it for us, we did not have to sign anything. So I never agreed to anything, the union did.

Agreed.

They are confused about what they want FT's to do vs. what they are contractually required to do. They'll never change..........it's the new wave of pilot and Eagle's is infested with them.

:cool:

It doesn't matter if it was done on purpose. The fact is that certain pilots endured terrible stagnation, displacements and FURLOUGH, and now these Captains are changing their mind about going to AA. I didn't plan to be a career FO, maybe I'll go to the arbitrator and he'll make me a Captain because I don't want to be a FO anymore. I'll tell him " I made the decision to come to eagle a decade ago" and "I'm older now, things are different" as this is the bull*&%$ line I have to hear from these guys who have been in the left seat for 10 years making 6 figures. Boo f'n hoo, just flow already and send me a postcard.

So I guess since you never personally signed our contract then it doesn't apply to you either then right? Since you didn't agreed to the contract, I guess the pay rates won't apply to you then, alpa signed the agreement, you didn't.

It's more like since you didn't sign for Eagle Rights, you elected to flow through. The only thing eagle is infested with is the small group of weasels/scabs that doesn't want to own up to their agreement. This is the same type of BS as when the flowbacks came, the weasels twisted the intent of the agreement. In the letter, flowbacks can't displace ER captains, but you argued that it didn't say anything about ER can't be displaced by the Eagle FT captains. So you stole the rights/seats of ER captains so you wouldn't have to live up to your word. Have you no shame.

-This agreement was in place since 1997 and provided for flowback positions for AA pilots in the event of AA furlough.

You still chose to come here.

-This agreement had no contractual requirement for AE pilots to go to AA.

You still chose to come here.

-The company even said they wouldn't force these pilots to flow to AA many years ago.

You still chose to come here.


Had you planned properly and done a little research in your choice of regional, you'd have learned that your mailbox would likely remain empty.

Blaming others for your faliures only results in further frustration.

Shame should also include the use of the term "scab" where it doesn't apply. The above points all applied at American Eagle for many years, yet you also demand differently for your personal benefit.

The new breed of pilot will turn on anything that impedes his advancement even when he has himself to blame.

This profession is toast.

Agreed with this and the rest of your post 100%.

Additionally, what the heck does the fact our majority of our pilot group, including many of the pilots atp409 and others hope to kick out of their jobs, have suffered stagnation and displacements have to do with whether or not a pilot exercises their option to flow? It's not a requirement per Letter 3 despite the shenanigans attempted by certain members of the MEC. The company knows it. The arbitrator knows it. So why don't several of our elected union representatives know it? By propagating this misinformation to the membership, many of our junior and ill-informed pilots are now all worked up to violate one of the basic precepts of unionism: Brotherhood.

Also agreed. By calling flow-thrus "scabs", odog1121 has just demonstrated a deep lack of both professionalism and union knowledge.

Why don't you go back a few pages and see who called who a scab. Didn't see you complain about professionalism when "one of you" refer to all junior eagle pilots as scabs or "scab like."

Ha! You're making me responsible for screening and responding to every post on this forum? Are you now asserting that by "logging in" I am "committed" to respond to every post in which you and I disagree? http://www.smileyhut.com/naughty/wedgie.gif Again, your level of professionalism and acumen is readily apparent to the entire forum, odog1121.

FWIW, if you quote the post in which you're referring I'd be happy to respond to it too.

I didn't realize you spoke for the entire forum. Anyhow, this back and forth nonsense is a waste of everyone's time. All parties involved is already convinced on their positions. No amount of "discussions" or name calling will change anyone's mind. There will be ****ed off people and law suits to come either way. Good day

Is this Eagle Lounge? ***?

That's ridiculous. Of course I don't and I'd never presume to do so. Obviously you've misread the post. Since you are no longer interested in trying to distract everyone from your misuse of the word "scab" by alluding someone else did it, I guess that part of the discussion is over.

The people who now recognize it's wrong to attempt to throw a fellow union pilot out of their seat, out of this union and under a bus will change their minds from the position advocated by the MEC. Those who will walk all over someone else in order to satisfy personal greed will not change their minds as you've pointed out with your "law suits to come" remark.

Obviously, since you believe "there will be ****ed off people and law suits to come either way" you are now retracting this remark:
Our road to Contract 2013 is going to be a bumpy one. Who do you think is going to be worse off at the end of it due to the lack of unity we have among Eagle pilots?

So, are you going to use that arguement when CS tells you to do something in the contract that you don't want to do?

Let us know how that works out for you.


I do agree there does not appear to be any language in Sup. W that requires a pilot to transfer. I also can understand the arguement that there is no specific language because nobody ever expected anybody to not want to go.... there are many valid arguements I've heard from both sides.

That is why there is an arbitration process and it's what all the lawyers get paid for. Actually, the worse they write these types of things, the more likely it is they will have repeat business downt he road to help sort out the mess. Kinda a self serving mess they create isn't it?

Of course there was specific language to those who did not want to flow, It was called "Eagle rights". The time to decide to stay or go was back then, not now.

And before all the eagle "flow thru back outs" or "decision changers" jump all over me, I do agree with mason32 when he states:
I also see no language in which anyone resigned from eagle in order to flow thru.

Let the arbitrater decide, thats why he gets paid the big bucks, and I dont.:eek:

It's almost a certainty that no pilots will be forced to flow. The arbitrator has already said basically as much.

So angry F/O's and or ER's are going to sue ?

ROFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!

- Who do they sue.........the arbitrator ?, AMR ?, FT's who excercise a legal contractual option ?, ALPA ?, McDonald's ?, Tiger Woods ?

GMAFB :rolleyes:

I don't know you tell me. A FT told me he was going to sue if he was forced to flow. I can give you his name and employee number if you want so you can ask him.

In that case he'd have a case to sue the company for age discrimination and the union for DFR. Since the arbitrator has already stated no forced flow, it's unlikely anyone will do that.

You'd previously said "There will be ****ed off people and law suits to come either way." So who is going to sue if he doesn't flow and who are they going to sue?
That's not the same and you should know better. Calling them names doesn't make you any more justified or correct.

We obviously have the same opinion on this issue, however we have reached our opinions via a diffrent path. We both dont agree on forced flow (as did the arbitrator).

However, I personally do not believe it is just and fair for a minority of senior pilots to change their minds depending on what benefits their personal interest at the time, while the entire pilot group pays the consequences of their actions or inactions. I never thought Eagle rights was an open ended option that could be chosen 10 years later.

I agree on the name calling not being justified, and I apologize if anyone was truly offended, but I do not consider the decision changers true flow thrus as they are not flowing, I dont wish to call them Eagle rights as the time of that option has passed. Call them what you wish.

Beagle you said "Since the arbitrator has already stated no forced flow, it's unlikely anyone will do that. "

When did the arbritrator announce his ruling? I think the arbitrator spoke of this at the hearing, but has not yet issued an opinion. Remember people do change their minds and this arbitrator has made rulings in the past that are not logical.

In May the arbitrator issues the Remedy..... Thats just what the arbitrator said when the four parties met to discuss the flow through.. Thats not a ruling....

Agreed. He has the latitude to change his mind, but I'd bet against him doing it. Odds are his remedy will be in line with his previous statements on the matter.
Dude, by that definition every pilot senior to you is forcing you to pay the consequences of their actions and you are doing the same to every pilot junior to you.

There is nothing in Letter 3 which forces a pilot to flow nor that prevents them from electing not to flow. With a few exceptions, those who did not select the ER option put themselves at risk of displacement by an FB in order to have the option to flow. The fact very few were actually displaced is not only irrelevant, but not their fault. Letter 3 was an abortion as far as its assistance to Eagle pilots compared to the harm it created, but that is not the fault of any FTs. It's just the way it worked out. Anyone who attempts to put harm on the FTs for revenge is committing a travesty of justice.

I had not thought of it that way. You do make a strong case. Either way it was a big price paid by all, so a few could have that option.

As it worked out, you are absolutely correct. Please consider this scenario; What 9/11 had happened in 2006 and Letter 3 had been extended another 10 years during APA's normal contract negotiations in 2004. How many of those now clamoring for throwing 500 of their fellow pilots under a bus because of all the harm they did would now be fighting off the mobs trying save their seats in 2014?

The sad fact is Letter 3 never worked as planned in its short life from 1997 to the fall of 2001. Only about 150 of our pilots were able to flow before everything came to a grinding halt. Is that the fault of any pilot(s) at Eagle?

I want those guys to flow, but I want them to do it willingly. I strongly supported the TA as the best rectification of what went wrong with Letter 3. Was it the fault of the 500 that a certain party of the agreement torpedoed with with a completely unreasonable demand on Scope? If you really want to lay blame somewhere, I respectfully suggest you look outside our own union. Nobody here wanted to see Letter 3 fail.

He won't have to worry about it.........there will be no forcing of pilots to resign and no lawsuits either.

Have you read Sup.W ? the declaration of "Eagle rights" was to prevent yourself from being subject to displacement.

If you are going to argue the pro's and con's at least have read the document.

Hey, thats good idea.....:rolleyes: