Eagle union politics and Contract 2013
 

I've seen on other message boards and in the crew room that some people are preaching doom and gloom in 2013. I don't believe our fate is sealed nor that we are all going to be "toast" in 2013. OTOH, what I do believe is that we will have a better contract in 2013 if we stand together as opposed to fighting each other for company crumbs.


"Unity is strength". The company is unified by the fact their jobs depend upon following the orders of the company president. They must all comply or they will be replaced. It's that simple. OTOH, our union pilots do not have to comply with our union leadership. We're a bottom-up organization run by volunteers. We elect our leadership. The only obligation for each member is to pay dues. If that is all they do, then our union is weak. If a few, say 4%, of the members volunteer to do the work, then that helps, but the results are not as pleasing to the membership as if more members actually participated in their own union.

BTW, 4-6% is about what we have at the moment and for the past several years. The remaining 94-96% sit back and ***** if not actively work against our own Union. This is their right, but it isn't an optimal solution for negotiating the best contract possible against a unified company. Worse, when we fight each other or actively to deprive each other of rights, we are actually making the company's job easier for them.

I'm not preaching that we'll be screwed in 2013. I'm saying that we won't maximize our gains if we don't have better unity, cooperation and activism on the part of our membership. There's a difference.

The recent opportunistic move by some of our members and leaders to sacrifice 500+ Union pilots for the betterment of the remaining 2300 pilots is detrimental to unity since even those who gain from the move would lose trust in an organization which preys on its own members.

There are many lessons to be learned from our mistakes:

1. Educate our members on what unionism means and how it works. Too many think it's like going to Burger King. That, by virtue of paying their dues, they can "have it their way". A union isn't service even though it does provide some services. We must work as a group while respecting the rights of the individual.

2. Minimize rumors and false ideas by more crew room visits and teleconferences.

3. Union leaders need to treat members like adults and not patronize, or worse, ply them with false hopes about where the industry is going. People don't like being told the truth when it hurts, but adults appreciate it more than being misled with "happy thoughts" which will never happen. Tell'em the truth straight up and don't sugar coat it.

4. Union leaders need to act less like politicians and more like UNION leaders. Union members need to start acting less like customers and more like UNION members.

A few Aesop's fables to illustrate the main points of why it is important we have a strong union for 2013:

The Father and His Sons
A father had a family of sons who were perpetually quarreling among themselves. When he failed to heal their disputes by his exhortations, he determined to give them a practical illustration of the evils of disunion; and for this purpose he one day told them to bring him a bundle of sticks. When they had done so, he placed the bundle into the hands of each of them in succession, and ordered them to break it in pieces. They tried with all their strength, and were not able to do it. He next opened the bundle, took the sticks separately, one by one, and again put them into his sons' hands, upon which they broke them easily. He then addressed them in these words: "My sons, if you are of one mind, and unite to assist each other, you will be as this bundle, uninjured by all the attempts of your enemies; but if you are divided among yourselves, you will be broken as easily as these sticks."
The moral of the story: There is strength in unity.


The Lion and Three Bulls
Three Bulls were grazing in a meadow, and were watched by a Lion, who longed to capture and eat them, but who felt he was no match for the three so long as they kept together; whenever he came near they turned their tails to one another, so that whichever way he approached them he was met by the horns of one of them.

So he began by false whispers and rumors to cause jealousy and distrust among them. This method worked so well that at last, the Bulls grew cold and unfriendly, and finally avoided each other, and fed each one by himself. Then the Lion attacked them one by one and soon ate all three.
The moral of the story: The quarrels of friends are the opportunities of foes.


The Trees and the Axe
A man came into a Wood one day and begged of the Trees the favor of a handle for his Axe. The Trees voted to sacrifice a young ash sapling.

The Man made the sapling into a handle and fixed it into the axe head, and soon set to work cutting down tree after tree. When Trees realized how the Man was using their gift, they cried "we have only ourselves to blame. The little we gave has cost us all: had we not sacrificed the rights of the ash, we might ourselves have stood for ages."
The moral of the story: Those who sacrifice the rights of others deserve to lose their own rights and often do.

Sacrifice 500 pilots for the remaining 2300, interesting way to put it.

More like "get 500 to follow through with contractually binding agreement"

and

Not allow 500 pilots to change their minds, Eagle rights guys can't "change" their minds, so why should anyone else be able to.

The only sacrifice here is the inability to advance for the remaining 2300.

How can you expect unity within a workgroup when two thirds of the workgroup has been completely screwed out of advancements in QOL, salary, and "the profession". We were displaced out of Captain seats and suffered furlough to allow AA to flow back. The only reason that was acceptable to us is because flow through pilots signed on the dotted line to flow through. Now all bets are off, selfishness has divided this workgroup.

You should at least "try" and get your facts right. Nobody signed anything to become flow-thru. It was the default unless you did elect "Eagle Rights."

They also denied people the ability to become flow-thru if they were over a certain age... yet now, they want to make people well past that age go.

It's a sticky no win situation. Supplement W was very poorly written... and the arbitrations left lots to be desired as well.

Agreed. What began as Letter 3 (Eagle)/Supplement W(AA) in 1997 was not the same letter that expired eleven years later. The twists and turns of a four party agreement never measured up to the expectations it was promised to deliver.

ATP409 is angry about how it turned out and I don't blame him. However, taking out his anger on pilots who are also victims of the results is just plain wrong. In psychology it's called "Displaced Aggression". While his anger and frustration are fully understandable, it doesn't give him the right to screw someone else just because he got screwed. Further, by attempting to displace his aggression on other pilots, he's only making the situation worse by weakening his own union. This also is wrong. It's also immature and unprofessional, IMHO.

Weakening my union? I'm not the one who backed out of an agreement. Would you try the same if you had a mortgage and lost your job? Would you say "I didn't know what I was getting into" or "I didn't know the economy would do this" Would the bank say "ok keep the house, don't worry about the payments" I'd love to see the economy drastically improve so I can see these "victims" (hilarious, 85-100g a year 15-18 day off victims) plead their case on why they are owed backpay to 2007. It's as simple as this; the deal looked good and they wanted to flow, now the deal looks bad and they no longer want to. I agree it sucks, but 1000 eagle pilots paid for their decision and will get nothing in return, I hope you're not preaching this "victim" and "unity" in your cockpit, as it makes you sound hypocritical.

How can you have unity if all you do is fight each other. Is it true the majority voted to kick out a minority of pilots? What is happening now at Eagle?

It is that way, because AMR thrives on creating the conditions in ALL labor groups that cause this type of strife.

The more the labor groups fight with eachother, the less effective they are at fighting AMR.

No it went wrong because people who kept upgrading and not electing eagle rights after 9/11. And if I understand you correctly, you were displaces as captain, or am I wrong. There were only 40 flowbacks that came here that were senior to ant non eagle rights with numbers. So that means only 40 could come here because of them the rest came for those dumb ones who did not elect eagle rights after 9/11 who got no number and were junior by default to every furloughed pilot at AA. But it seems you just like to pass the buck because that is the game of the day. So I really feel sorry for your situation, but it was all your making. And I would not bet my last dollar on our union leadership on knowing the legal aspects of what they are spouting to all the junior pilots because they are wrong. Just like you have bare minimum understanding of your own contract. You are what the majority of pilots at AE are, knlowledger based on word of mouth and we boards, you have absolutely no understanding of your own contract. Just pout total B.S..
Oh wait that means you must be in a union position.

Looks this way to me too as seen by the way their mainline pilots look down on and fight with their regional pilots.

If the eagle pilots are fighting each other, they are only hurting themselves.

Our group hasn't been this united for all the time I've been here. United in getting these people to follow through with their commitment. It's just a vocal few that want to make it seem like the union is fracturing when in reality it's quite the opposite.

What commitment? It's been asked before, but I'll ask it again. Show me in Letter 3 where pilots are required to flow. Heck, you can even show me in Letter 3 where the contract is that these pilots supposedly signed which committed them to flow. If you can do that, then I'll believe you. Until then, all I see is a lynch mob mentality that thinks just because they outnumber the accused makes them right. It doesn't.

Everyone knew the intent of the letter when they didn't sign. Now people that wants to renege on their commitement is picking the letter apart word by word to exploit it's weaknesses while knowing it's original intent. It's selfish but I guess I probably would do the samething in their position. Weasel move

Classic. Your pilots must be a lot of fun in the crew room. Speaking of weasels, which side is your management on? Force them out of their jobs or let them keep their jobs for another five or ten years until they have to retire?

We're a rough crowd... a lot angry ppl. there was a shouting match in jfk crewroom a few wks ago..

Next time start chanting, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT..., and throw in weapons.

It's easy to see why mainline pilots are blaming regional pilots for dragging down the profession---->

Lol, it's because we are. We accepted a job that flew what used to be their routes for $25/hr. What else would you call that?

Why did you do that? Shouldn't you quit your job and go hide yourself in shame instead of beating up on other pilots?

You and your brother pilots are going to beat yourselves senseless and your managers run over the top of you.

Sadly, in today's labor arbitration, "intent" of the agreement has nothing to do with the outcome of arbitrations. Something else does. It's all mumbo-jumbo, parsing, and torturing verbiage to get the desired outcome by the arbitrator.

Witness the APA 7300 pilot floor for continued operation of Eagle. The arbitrator ruled that, in fact, AA could furlough every single AA pilot yet never trigger the minimum 7300 AA pilot floor that allows AE to continue operation. His decision invalidated the very reason for the agreement in the first place. That arbitration decision shocked even management in it's bizarreness.

I wish AE ALPA good luck with their upcoming negotiations. If the ongoing brickwall stall with AMR regarding the TWU, AA FA's, and the APA contracts are any indicator, they're going to offer AE a Mesa contract and emphasize the need to be competitive with the dregs of the industry. Of course, with the 50 seat RJs being economically crippled in the next few years, it's hard to figure out what AMR might try and do.

I attributed to SJS and the mgmt's willingless to exploit our SJS that we've all had at one time or another. Shame is awefully a strong word, but I am admitting that I played a role in the downward spiral of this profession without even knowing it. As for quitting, I just don't have the will to quit this job that I've invested so much in attaining it.

Definitely, and Nicolau already stated his position against forcing anyone to do something they dont want to.

A scab is when someone takes the others job. AE MEC and the junior pilots fall in this category. So you say the pilots at AE have never been as united as this before. Well you are wrong but that is another story that you have no idea of. But the united AE pilots are to shaft and change the rules of the letter to suit there needs and force the senior pilots out. Oh shall we say that 90 percent of the MEC benefits in both position and pay from this. Some what goes against the code of ethics that ALPA published.
But you stay united on this issue and you will find yourself and the rest of the pilot group paying a huge price at the end with the company.
For you ignorance is bliss.

Weasel scab move is being done by you and your co-horts.
All you and the rest of the lynch mob talk about something that you cannot prove. Only one person has taken the MEC's position from ALPA that was the former lawyer from ALPA Mr. C. We wont mention the company that is a given. This MEC has also taken the banner for the company stating that the senior pilots are making to much money and this is hurting the company. Elected union officials making this kind of statements only means they have been bought off, but you are a follower and never will be a leader since you cannot even show anything in writing that supports your position other than they said.

Why did you accept it then?

Wow, I didn't realize that a FT pilot could also be called scab now if they don't fulfill their commitment since they're occupying a job that should no longer belong to them. I would have settled for weasel but if you want to define them as scabs go ahead. I think it's a bit harsh.

I now see what Eagle´s problem is with their junior pilots. Good luck in negotiations, gentlemen. You´re going to need it.

I don't think its really the junior pilots or basically those with less than 5yrs. Of course everybody benefits. The really angry guys are the 10yr Fo's and junior capts basically less the 15yrs seniority would be junior. Those guys got burned badddd.. Guys lost there seat for the FB's and FO's for life are going on 10yrs. Also, the ones that are capts are on rsv with no end in sight want these guys gone. After all that, losing seats, spending 10yrs in the right seat, lose of pay, poor QOL. Now these guys are saying no thanks, I don't want to do it. It makes a lot ppl's blood boil. Believe me I fly with some and they are already getting lawyers ready for a lawsuit if these guys don't go. I think its going to get a lot more ugly.

it's called "deconstructionism" and has dominated legal circles for some time. its the predecessor was legal realism. alpa won't let this out because they want to relay the false hope that contract language matters when in fact it does not. ever hear the phrase "we know what you meant but the language will not support it?" that's the sound of the door opening for a prison rape that you were not anticipating.
don't believe it? google it.

Junior pilots included anyone junior to the pilots they are attempting to kick out of their jobs. I'm sorry to hear how badly they were screwed. Are they accussing those senior pilots of being the ones who screwed them? Was this done on purpose?

Hiring lawyers? Pilots suing pilots? OMG. Eagle pilots are more screwed up than I thought.

Yes..........this pilot group is in rudderless trouble.

The REAL problem is not necessarily the issue at hand, but HOW THE UNION CHOSE TO HANDLE IT.

Eagle ALPA has a new MEC Chairman who has strongly advocated that flowthrough pilots must be required to flow to AA. The current leadership then devised a series of "resolutions" to accomplish just that, but has almost certainly failed.

Two things have been accomplished by this poorly timed and carelessly devised act. First, a demonstration that the leadership has poor skills in how to accomplish goals and second, they've further divided an already splintered group.

I don't see anything they can do to restore their credibility or our unity short of new elections for a broad-based group of new leaders. As such, I see little chance of an effective defense of our contract in 2013, the way things stand now.

This was a critical issue among our pilots and needed to be resolved carefully, but instead this group of so-called leaders botched the job hideously.

Don't you have your own company thread that you can go and crap on there Jake? I mean really...you always have something to say about Eagle. Did you get fired or furloughed by us? Why do you have such a hard-on for our politics?

While I completely agree the actions of the MEC have further divided a splintered group, I wouldn't be so quite to nail TG to the cross for it. First, the MEC Chairman has no vote. Second, while he is a strong advocate of this position, he appears to have been elected into office by those MEC members who do have votes. Ergo, if you want to blame someone for this debacle, blame those who voted for both TG and the resolutions. I often defended HM from those who kept hammering him or DR for every wrong in our union for exactly the same reasons. While the MEC Chairman and Vice-Chairman have power, their powers do not include 1) Votes on the MEC, 2) MEC budget approval and 3) rule making for how MEC Staff conduct their jobs. The MEC body of 13 voting LEC reps are the ones who collectively own this problem, the wedge and everything else done by the MEC. Scapegoating Tony is just as wrong as scapegoating Herb. They offer guidance and leadership, but they don't even have the power to vote for a new coffee maker let alone kick out 500 Eagle pilots from their jobs and this union.

Dude, if you are really a military pilot, then you should understand that the mission is more important than anything else. Who cares what outsiders think? Shouldn't we be focused upon fixing our problems in this union? We're headed for a civil war within our own union just when we should be focused upon standing together for a better contract in 2013. Do you agree?

I still don't see how it's a "civil war" as you've described. I'd say maybe 5% of the pilot group wants to go back on their commitment and is the vocal group. Another 5% either agree with them or just don't care. The other 90% are in agreement. I don't think anyone is falling for the scare tactic of the possibility of a "civil war." The numbers are simply non-existant.

Only if they are both senior to me...:D

Yeeessss. But what does this have to do with this dude always crap'n on us?

ORLY?:
Just because it is a 20/80 split instead of a 50/50 split doesn't mean it won't create a "civil war" within the ranks just as we are preparing for our first Section Six negotiations in 16 years. Due to your own comments, you should man-up and admit your part in creating the division. Why haven't you produced the proof requested in post #12? Before you decide to kick 500 of your fellow Eagle pilots to out of their seats, out of their jobs and out of this union, shouldn't you have proof that your decision is justified?

Try rereading the post. Which is more important: What a non-member of the Eagle pilot union thinks or our ability to negotiate a good contract in 2013?

I included the statement about the MEC chair to provide clearer perspective, not to imply he is the sole problem, however...........one has to question how agressive this stance and more importantly, this action would have been taken had the former MEC chair still been seated.

I don't think it accurate to imply the MEC chairs position is simply a "no-vote lame duck" situation. The pilot in that position has the greatest influence on policy and action then any segment of the group as a whole and it has to be taken into account.

BTW, nice to see you've found a new home DW.................