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-   -   DAL to reduce 35 CRJ-200 (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/50032-dal-reduce-35-crj-200-a.html)

stbloc 04-20-2010 04:51 PM

DAL to reduce 35 CRJ-200
 
Announced in the DAL 1qtr conference call.


Committed to reducing CRJ 50 seat fleet - least efficient aircraft they have. 35 gone this year, along with 15 Saabs. Another 50 regionals leave next year

- 787 trying to work out of that contract. 744 life extended 5+ years with upgrades, happy with "young" into fleet



- Seemed pleased with hub revenue performance, particularly JFK

- 1 738, 6 MD90s being delivered this quarter

[SIZE=2]

STINKY 04-20-2010 05:10 PM

who do you think is going to give up that many planes.

rickair7777 04-20-2010 05:14 PM

Who has 50's ?

Who is wholly owned?

Who has a short-term contract?

If that's not enough, DL could buy out a regional, or make a deal to trade two-for-one 50's for 70's or something like that (if there's any room left in the scope).

STINKY 04-20-2010 05:18 PM

So Comair will bleed some more and they want concessions in the up coming negotiations. Thats crazy talk

Airsupport 04-20-2010 05:22 PM

Unfortunatly I think its going to be all comair and mesaba. I know we will all have our guesses as to what is going to happen and no one knows for sure. However for the summer pinnacle has more flying in MEM and MSP. DTW is a little less but a lot of that flying is now in JFK, LGA, and CVG. Those are places we now have turns out of. MEM now has a lot of trips going in and out of ATL and IND on the 200. Our 900's are also doing turns out of MEM. Our flying is being spread out and growing. Even with ASA coming to MEM our hours are still going up. But then again we are pretty much an all 200 airline so that doesn't help the odds.
Comair has been losing planes and so has Mesaba. I dont think that will end anytime soon. And with freedom coming up also that will be a big chunk of the 50 seaters out there now.

and yes. we have all known this is coming for about 2 years now.

flycrj200 04-20-2010 05:29 PM

This is old news.

JoeMerchant 04-20-2010 05:29 PM

20 of the 50 seat retirements are coming from ASA this year. We "traded" them in for 10 90 seaters. 16 of the 50 seaters have been "placed" with United.

flycrj200 04-20-2010 06:06 PM


Originally Posted by Airsupport (Post 798900)
Unfortunatly I think its going to be all comair and mesaba. I know we will all have our guesses as to what is going to happen and no one knows for sure. However for the summer pinnacle has more flying in MEM and MSP. DTW is a little less but a lot of that flying is now in JFK, LGA, and CVG. Those are places we now have turns out of. MEM now has a lot of trips going in and out of ATL and IND on the 200. Our 900's are also doing turns out of MEM. Our flying is being spread out and growing. Even with ASA coming to MEM our hours are still going up. But then again we are pretty much an all 200 airline so that doesn't help the odds.
Comair has been losing planes and so has Mesaba. I dont think that will end anytime soon. And with freedom coming up also that will be a big chunk of the 50 seaters out there now.

and yes. we have all known this is coming for about 2 years now.


Are you guys going to hire to support the extra flying?

Airsupport 04-20-2010 06:08 PM


Originally Posted by flycrj200 (Post 798920)
Are you guys going to hire to support the extra flying?

as of right now they just displaced about 30 pilots (16 fo and 13 ca) to cover the extra flying. I think they are hoping that takes care of it.

contrail67 04-20-2010 06:26 PM


Originally Posted by flycrj200 (Post 798907)
This is old news.

And now reality sets in.

flycrj200 04-20-2010 06:59 PM


Originally Posted by contrail67 (Post 798929)
And now reality sets in.

It would be great for my career progress if Delta eliminates all the CRJ flying, but we all know it's not going to happen.

JoeMerchant 04-20-2010 07:07 PM


Originally Posted by flycrj200 (Post 798940)
It would be great for my career progress if Delta eliminates all the CRJ flying, but we all know it's not going to happen.

How so? What would happen if Delta eliminated all the feed from smaller cities?

saxman66 04-20-2010 07:11 PM


Originally Posted by JoeMerchant (Post 798943)
How so? What would happen if Delta eliminated all the feed from smaller cities?

Delta pilots would start flying the small RJ's.

JoeMerchant 04-20-2010 07:39 PM


Originally Posted by saxman66 (Post 798947)
Delta pilots would start flying the small RJ's.

That's not what flycrj200 said....He said it would be good if Delta:

"eliminates all the CRJ flying".

The ASA and CMR pilots tried to have it all done under a single list back in 2000...That horse has already left the barn....

Bug Smasher 04-20-2010 07:42 PM


Originally Posted by JoeMerchant (Post 798908)
20 of the 50 seat retirements are coming from ASA this year. We "traded" them in for 10 90 seaters. 16 of the 50 seaters have been "placed" with United.


Now 18 not 16.

Truman_Sparks 04-20-2010 07:43 PM


Originally Posted by saxman66 (Post 798947)
Delta pilots would start flying the small RJ's.

Riiiiight! Because nothing is more cost effective than replacing cheap labor on planes Delta claims they don't want with expensive labor!

Superpilot92 04-20-2010 07:57 PM


Originally Posted by JoeMerchant (Post 798908)
20 of the 50 seat retirements are coming from ASA this year. We "traded" them in for 10 90 seaters. 16 of the 50 seaters have been "placed" with United.

90 seaters huh? :confused: How many planes are configured with 90 seats again? :confused:

saxman66 04-20-2010 08:05 PM


Originally Posted by Truman_Sparks (Post 798969)
Riiiiight! Because nothing is more cost effective than replacing cheap labor on planes Delta claims they don't want with expensive labor!

Never said it would actually happen.

afterburn81 04-20-2010 08:09 PM


Originally Posted by Superpilot92 (Post 798974)
90 seaters huh? :confused: How many planes are configured with 90 seats again? :confused:

I know that drives me nuts when people say that. They usually call them "90s". I can see the 700 being called a "70" but no one says 20's for the 200. Were there any 900's that were configured to 90 seats? I thought the most seats on any U.S. carrier is about 86. Might as well round it off to 100.

80ktsClamp 04-20-2010 08:14 PM


Originally Posted by afterburn81 (Post 798981)
I know that drives me nuts when people say that. They usually call them "90s". I can see the 700 being called a "70" but no one says 20's for the 200. Were there any 900's that were configured to 90 seats? I thought the most seats on any U.S. carrier is about 86. Might as well round it off to 100.


I think the Mesa ones for the old AWA feed are 86 seats, which is the highest density con

Just make sure it's referred to as the "9" and flip your epaulets. :)

rickair7777 04-20-2010 10:14 PM


Originally Posted by afterburn81 (Post 798981)
I know that drives me nuts when people say that. They usually call them "90s". I can see the 700 being called a "70" but no one says 20's for the 200. Were there any 900's that were configured to 90 seats? I thought the most seats on any U.S. carrier is about 86. Might as well round it off to 100.

They are called "90's" because they are certified to 90 seats even though they are usually configured with less.

Smart pilots have scope clauses which are based on certified seats and MGTOW, not just installed seats.

A 90-seater configured with 76 seats and a first class cabin generates more revenue than one with 90 coach seats (in the proper market).

nerd2009 04-21-2010 05:05 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 799046)
They are called "90's" because they are certified to 90 seats even though they are usually configured with less.

Smart pilots have scope clauses which are based on certified seats and MGTOW, not just installed seats.

A 90-seater configured with 76 seats and a first class cabin generates more revenue than one with 90 coach seats (in the proper market).

.....and a DC9 configured with a first class generates more revenue than any arr jay.......

Series 30: Fuselage of the Series 30 DC-9, actually second developed, is nearly 15 feet longer than the Series 10, at 119.3 feet (36.3 m), providing seats for up to 115 passengers and cargo space to 895 cubic feet (25.3 m3). Series 30 wingspan was increased to 93.3 feet (28.4 m), and a high-lift wing system of leading edge slats gives the Series 30 excellent short-field performance. The first of the type began airline service in February 1967.
Most of the Series 30s are powered by either JT8D-7 or JT8D-9 engines. Others are equipped with JT8D-11 or the JT8D-15, with 15,500 pounds of thrust. The Series 30 is the most widely used member of the DC-9 family, accounting for approximately 60 percent of the entire fleet.
Series 40: To again meet airline demands for a DC-9 with more capacity, the Series 40 was developed with a fuselage length of 125.6 feet (38.3 m). Seating is available for up to 125 passengers, 10 more than the popular Series 30s. Below-floor cargo space totals 1,019 cubic feet (28.8 m3). The Series 40 uses the same wing as the Series 30. Series 40 engines are JT8D-9s, JT8D-11s or JT8D-15s. The model entered service in March 1968.
Series 50: The fifth and largest DC-9 version is extended to 133.6 feet (40.7 m) long, permitting installation of five more rows of seats than the Series 30. Maximum passenger capacity is up to 139, with cargo capacity increased similarly. Wingspan is the same as for the Series 30. Engines are either JT8D-15s or JT8D-17s, which are rated at 16,000 pounds. Airline operations with the Series 50 began in August 1975.

contrail67 04-21-2010 05:56 AM


Originally Posted by flycrj200 (Post 798940)
It would be great for my career progress if Delta eliminates all the CRJ flying, but we all know it's not going to happen.


1 step at a time...and this was your first step. You will get there.

flycrj200 04-21-2010 06:40 AM


Originally Posted by contrail67 (Post 799112)
1 step at a time...and this was your first step. You will get there.

Thanks Contrail, a lot of people dont seem to understand that more RJ's is bad for our career progress.

STINKY 04-21-2010 06:41 AM

Think it would be better for Delta to merge all regionals and staple them to the bottom to end scope and the whipsaw for good.

Lowlevel 04-21-2010 07:27 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 799046)
They are called "90's" because they are certified to 90 seats even though they are usually configured with less.

Smart pilots have scope clauses which are based on certified seats and MGTOW, not just installed seats.

A 90-seater configured with 76 seats and a first class cabin generates more revenue than one with 90 coach seats (in the proper market).

Why not call them what they are? (100,200, 200ER,700,701,702,702ER,900,1000)
We don't call a 737 a "137" because it has 137 seats.
The only place I seem to hear "90" or "70" or "50" is with Delta regionals. For some reason Comair's safety information cards say "CRJ50" ...etc. There's are the only ones I have noticed that say that. If we are going to call an aircraft something other than the manufacturer's name, why not:
Dinosaur 9 (DC-9)
Crap Box (MD-88)
Lawn Dart (ERJ145 in Delta colors)
Slob (Saab)
etc...etc...:D

acl65pilot 04-21-2010 07:32 AM


Originally Posted by STINKY (Post 799131)
Think it would be better for Delta to merge all regionals and staple them to the bottom to end scope and the whipsaw for good.

In an ideal world, yes, but remember that many of the DCI no WO regionals fly for other carriers. That makes it very sticky to even think about that. Now the WO, that would be great. Long way to go.

FlyCRJ you are correct. The reason DAL has 20 year FO's is because of the RJ boom. It is also the reason that ASA has 8 year FO's. We stagnated the industry. Get rid of the RJ or change the who flies them, and you restore the progression in this career.

rickair7777 04-21-2010 07:39 AM


Originally Posted by nerd2009 (Post 799089)
.....and a DC9 configured with a first class generates more revenue than any arr jay.......

Series 30: Fuselage of the Series 30 DC-9, actually second developed, is nearly 15 feet longer than the Series 10, at 119.3 feet (36.3 m), providing seats for up to 115 passengers and cargo space to 895 cubic feet (25.3 m3). Series 30 wingspan was increased to 93.3 feet (28.4 m), and a high-lift wing system of leading edge slats gives the Series 30 excellent short-field performance. The first of the type began airline service in February 1967.
Most of the Series 30s are powered by either JT8D-7 or JT8D-9 engines. Others are equipped with JT8D-11 or the JT8D-15, with 15,500 pounds of thrust. The Series 30 is the most widely used member of the DC-9 family, accounting for approximately 60 percent of the entire fleet.
Series 40: To again meet airline demands for a DC-9 with more capacity, the Series 40 was developed with a fuselage length of 125.6 feet (38.3 m). Seating is available for up to 125 passengers, 10 more than the popular Series 30s. Below-floor cargo space totals 1,019 cubic feet (28.8 m3). The Series 40 uses the same wing as the Series 30. Series 40 engines are JT8D-9s, JT8D-11s or JT8D-15s. The model entered service in March 1968.
Series 50: The fifth and largest DC-9 version is extended to 133.6 feet (40.7 m) long, permitting installation of five more rows of seats than the Series 30. Maximum passenger capacity is up to 139, with cargo capacity increased similarly. Wingspan is the same as for the Series 30. Engines are either JT8D-15s or JT8D-17s, which are rated at 16,000 pounds. Airline operations with the Series 50 began in August 1975.

Also a big revenue weakness with RJ's is cargo capacity...they were not designed with any above the pax bags. Mainline airplanes can typically take pax, bags, plus significant cargo.

blackbox 04-21-2010 08:50 AM

I say have the FAA come up with a modification to have Cargo door to be installed on any RJ and sell them all to places like Mountain Air Cargo or for that matter UPS or FedEx....

bored 04-21-2010 09:56 AM

Again... old news. I think it's obvious where the 50 seat reductions will come from: In the short term: ASA getting rid of 20 out of the DL system, Freedom/ Chautauqua contracts coming up sooner than later and the regularly scheduled 200 returns from Comair.

DL can also get rid of a lot of DCI capacity by returning the saabs, due to their lease clauses and the fact they're operated by a wholly owned (which is exactly why they're doing it.) The first 23 saabs are the equivalent of roughly 16, 50 seaters. The entire saab fleet is roughly the equivalent of 33, 50 seaters. That's significant capacity not bound by a contractors long term agreement or long term lease agreements. They've been actively backfilling the saabs with 200s and thereby reducing frequency and will likely continue to do so.

I find it interesting, but not surprising in DLs disorganization with DCI, that they continue to throw flying towards Pinnacle. In April alone, Mesaba has had to cover nearly 50 flights for Pinnacle. Not to mention the ones we cover for Compass. This is on top of our already allocated flying, plus the up/down gauging within our own fleet. I guess we at XJ know why we haven't gutted our staffing like they could have. It's just so typically DL to gut Pinnacle flying in MSP, reduce XJ 200 block hours and then backfill it with Skywest. Money talks I suppose.

Aquapilot 04-21-2010 10:55 AM

Was the EXACT terminology CRJ's or did they say 50 seat RJ's?

winglet 04-21-2010 11:11 AM


Originally Posted by blackbox (Post 799226)
I say have the FAA come up with a modification to have Cargo door to be installed on any RJ and sell them all to places like Mountain Air Cargo or for that matter UPS or FedEx....

Maybe like this?

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../5/1231507.jpg

Cascade Aerospace

winglet

80ktsClamp 04-21-2010 11:17 AM


Originally Posted by Aquapilot (Post 799320)
Was the EXACT terminology CRJ's or did they say 50 seat RJ's?


At the meeting last week, it was "RJ 50s." I assumed that probably included the Mesa aircraft as well as CRJ-1/200s.

Aquapilot 04-21-2010 11:22 AM

Not only has WEST AIR been running this configuration for years but Bombardier has a full cargo conversion configuration for the 100/200 series. Complete with range capabilities, loading capacities, pallet systems, exc. Its only a matter of time before the 200 becomes a major player in the cargo arena.

FWIW

Aquapilot 04-21-2010 11:25 AM


Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 799337)
At the meeting last week, it was "RJ 50s." I assumed that probably included the Mesa aircraft as well as CRJ-1/200s.

Gee....let me think.....Mesa operates 14 ERJ145's that they have been trying to dump for over a year? Think this will play into the reductions?

:cool: I think so

Aquapilot 04-21-2010 11:27 AM


Originally Posted by blackbox http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...s/viewpost.gif
I say have the FAA come up with a modification to have Cargo door to be installed on any RJ and sell them all to places like Mountain Air Cargo or for that matter UPS or FedEx....
Not only has WEST AIR been running this configuration for years but Bombardier has a full cargo conversion configuration for the 100/200 series. Complete with range capabilities, loading capacities, pallet systems, exc. Its only a matter of time before the 200 becomes a major player in the cargo arena.

FWIW

80ktsClamp 04-21-2010 11:29 AM


Originally Posted by bored (Post 799263)
I find it interesting, but not surprising in DLs disorganization with DCI, that they continue to throw flying towards Pinnacle. In April alone, Mesaba has had to cover nearly 50 flights for Pinnacle. Not to mention the ones we cover for Compass. This is on top of our already allocated flying, plus the up/down gauging within our own fleet. I guess we at XJ know why we haven't gutted our staffing like they could have. It's just so typically DL to gut Pinnacle flying in MSP, reduce XJ 200 block hours and then backfill it with Skywest. Money talks I suppose.

My understanding is that Trenary (9E's CEO) and Anderson are golfing buddies. Explains a lot..

Airsupport 04-21-2010 12:34 PM


Originally Posted by bored (Post 799263)
Again... old news. I think it's obvious where the 50 seat reductions will come from: In the short term: ASA getting rid of 20 out of the DL system, Freedom/ Chautauqua contracts coming up sooner than later and the regularly scheduled 200 returns from Comair.

DL can also get rid of a lot of DCI capacity by returning the saabs, due to their lease clauses and the fact they're operated by a wholly owned (which is exactly why they're doing it.) The first 23 saabs are the equivalent of roughly 16, 50 seaters. The entire saab fleet is roughly the equivalent of 33, 50 seaters. That's significant capacity not bound by a contractors long term agreement or long term lease agreements. They've been actively backfilling the saabs with 200s and thereby reducing frequency and will likely continue to do so.

I find it interesting, but not surprising in DLs disorganization with DCI, that they continue to throw flying towards Pinnacle. In April alone, Mesaba has had to cover nearly 50 flights for Pinnacle. Not to mention the ones we cover for Compass. This is on top of our already allocated flying, plus the up/down gauging within our own fleet. I guess we at XJ know why we haven't gutted our staffing like they could have. It's just so typically DL to gut Pinnacle flying in MSP, reduce XJ 200 block hours and then backfill it with Skywest. Money talks I suppose.

Its not that you are covering pinnacles or compass flights. you are just filling a void created by delta. we have had to do several flights for delta when they downgraded their own airplane and they would do it out of no where and ask us to fly it (I know because i am the guy they keep calling that day to do them). So when we pull a plane to do that flight someone else has to come in and do our original if we dont have an extra plane. We are also flying to all the cities that the saabs are being pulled out of. They are spreading the pain to everyone and everyone is running thin.

mwa1 04-21-2010 12:41 PM

to join or not the RJ pile on.
too bad the feed generated by the rj is of no value to the network. what were they thinking?

Avroman 04-21-2010 02:20 PM


Originally Posted by Airsupport (Post 799376)
Its not that you are covering pinnacles or compass flights. you are just filling a void created by delta. we have had to do several flights for delta when they downgraded their own airplane and they would do it out of no where and ask us to fly it (I know because i am the guy they keep calling that day to do them). So when we pull a plane to do that flight someone else has to come in and do our original if we dont have an extra plane. We are also flying to all the cities that the saabs are being pulled out of. They are spreading the pain to everyone and everyone is running thin.


Well except for Comair and Mesaba. They are thinning us out quite a bit but not in a good way. We certainly are feeling the pain though.


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