Colgan or Key Lime
 

I just wanted to run a quick poll. Would you pick Colgan or Key Lime?

I am a long time CFI with no turbine time (2000 TT 800 multi). Both gigs have turbo props.

Key Lime hires navajo then upgrades to the metro in 12 months (both left seat).

Colgan hires right seat saab or Q with an upgrade between 18 months to 2 yeas.

Key Lime pays 25,000 on the Navajo and 35,000 on the metro.

Colgan pays 18,000-20,000 first year and then goes up to about 35,000-40,000 after the upgrade.

Which route would YOU go to get turbine PIC based on the info above and all of what we read on these forums?

Please no off topic discussions. Please pretty please!

Go for the one you don't have to commute to.

One more thing to consider - Which one offers better retirement?

I would rather play russian roulette with five in chamber. Anyways, a lot will say Colgan for the crm experience and possible quick upgrade. Others will say key lime for the schedule(weekends off I think) plus no commuting. Both have bad cons with not so many pros. Go with um colgan.

I have no opinion other than to say don't let Colgan's "18 months to 2 years" upgrade be a factor in your decision. I don't know who told you that, maybe HR? but you should never count on an alleged upgrade timeline, things change so quickly at any airline. When I got hired upgrade was 1 year give or take. I have been an FO for 3 years. Yes they have planes coming this year but those still lead to only roughly 80 upgrades. 80 upgrades go into the low 300s seniority number which is early 2008 hires. (There are currently about 450 pilots on the list.) And then after that unless guys start leaving (not until at least 2012 if that) or Colgan finds homes for those other Qs (who knows when and if) you will not upgrade.

I just wanted to run a quick poll. Would you pick Colgan or Key Lime?

Neither.

I am a long time CFI with no turbine time (2000 TT 800 multi). Both gigs have turbo props.

Key Lime hires navajo then upgrades to the metro in 12 months (both left seat).

They tell you the upgrade is 12 months, but what is it in reality? Even if you upgrade, be aware, there is an 18 month, NON-prorated training contract worth $7500, and you WILL pay very single penny and the FULL amount if you leave early. And you sign ANOTHER contract when you upgrade!

Colgan hires right seat saab or Q with an upgrade between 18 months to 2 yeas.

I doubt the upgrade time will be less than 2 years. Don't chase the upgrade, that's how we got stuck with crappy pay!

Key Lime pays 25,000 on the Navajo and 35,000 on the metro.

Sounds about right! Pay is $100day/5days week. $60/day during training, appx 3 weeks. Benefits after 90 days.

Colgan pays 18,000-20,000 first year and then goes up to about 35,000-40,000 after the upgrade.

You need to do your math again!

Which route would YOU go to get turbine PIC based on the info above and all of what we read on these forums?

People need to stop chasing the quick upgrade and the Turbine PIC. Let's say you do get that 1000 TPIC time, then what? Do you think you'll be able to compete with thousands of furloughed and current regional CAs that have several thousand hours of Jet TPIC time?

Please no off topic discussions. Please pretty please!


One thing I have learned in this industry is to never pick an airline/company based on upgrade time or bases, as they can change on a daily basis!

Interview at both and if they both make an offer think about what is best for you. Interviewing is an important skill and I think it is good practice, especially if this is going to be your first airline gig.

You may have a better idea of what works better for you after you spend a long afternoon interviewing with a company.

Does Key Lime still do the "pay to play" First Officer program where for 30,000 I can pay to be a pilot?

I agree with The Juice I would go for both. I do not say this as a personal attack but 2000TT and 800 multi is not a lot when you compair it too all the others on the street with more time and with pervious experience. If you are lucky enough to get an offer from both THEN worry about where you would go. The days of picking the airline you want are probably gone for a while I believe they may be back in the future but for now as a fellow pilot trying to HELP apply everywhere and interview as much as possible the practice will only help you. It isnt written that if crappy air offers you a job you have to take it. Good luck.

Which one is likely to earn you a permanent black mark on your license-can you say "flight violation"? Do your homework.

What do you want to do? Fly for a major, or pilot a Gulfstream?

If it's the Gulfstream, then go Key Lime. If it's airline, then neither.:D

Your rate of return on instructing is definitely diminishing with your total time.
Either one of these companies will pay you dividends in future opportunities and increased flying skills and experience. I loved 135 flying and it honed my skills in a way the airlines never could. That said, Colgan would be a better launch pad for the majors. Have fun whichever way you go.

Don't know much about Key Lime but pilots were leaving in bunches from Colgan during 2005-2007. Many left for Airtran, and Continental. Some went to SWA and Allegiant. Many had zero jet time. I would bet many will leave in the future for the majors, it doesn't matter what anyone says on this message board. 121 turbine PIC time is valuable.

As others have said, 2 year upgrades at Colgan don't exist anymore. I would GUESS more like 3-5 years. And unless Key Lime is so bad, they can't keep people, I would question the 12 month to a Metro promise.

Another 1000 hours instructing will not improve your chances to get hired with almost any airline; but, as slowly as hiring is going right now, where ever you go, you will be at the bottom of the seniority for a LONG time. Be sure the life you have at your new job is an improvement over instructing. You will probably be sitting a bunch of reserve making $18,900 the first year at Colgan.... and commuting to reserve SSucksS! And a big unknown for Colgan is the contract: when will we get one and what will it be like.

I flew 135 for several years and liked it. Great experience if you don't do something stupid and kill yourself (if you know the regs, the airplane's limitations, the wx, the terrain, and how to fly ugly IFR, you will do fine.) Flying the 'jo in Colorado could be exciting.... especially single engine! After that, flying coupled ILSs in an RJ will be boring. If they offered a base that I liked, I would be tempted.

I DO NOT like the "First officer training program" (aka Pay to play) that Key Lime has, but that is just my opinion. Remember though, if the program attracts many people, when you do go to the Metro, you will be MEI-ing any idiot with 10,000 bucks burning a hole in his pocket. I wouldn't want to do that in a 15,000 pound aircraft, in the mountains, while trying to keep a schedule.... but that is just me.

Good luck

Key Lime. PIC time/experience. Unless something very unexpected happens, the upgrade is gonna run well over 2 years at Colgan.

Funny... When those were my choices I quit flying. But thats just me;)

Spoliers, it's killin' me, where DID you get the avitar??!??! Priceless!! :D

are you seriuos or just being sarcastic??.. I'm sure the thread starter's career goal is to fly a Global Express, G-V or end up at a major..

I don't think he cares about the retirement options at colgan or Key lime

Key Lime doesn't have the best reputation...in fact, I'd wager it to be worse in professional pilot circles than Colgan.

A prudent pilot might check the NTSB database to see just how many incidents/accidents Key Lime has had in the last decade...and the nature of those events.

For the record, before this post I had never heard of Key Lime Air. If it's the one listed on APC under charters then I'd say they're telling you more of the truth than colgan likely is. APC claims they have 31 active pilots and 40 airplanes. I guess with that math all of their "pilots" must be captains and all the FO's pay to play? I obviously never support pay to play operations, however if you aren't one of the guys paying then that would be ok in my eyes. I would keep in mind however that you'll be getting to use that MEI more there than you would at colgan with a properly certified captain.
Colgan Air according to APC has 48 aircraft and 429 pilots. Lets assume that you have to be in the top half of a list to become a pilot (math no one ever bothered to explain to me when I was joining the airline world) So you have to be in the top 215, meaning you won't get an upgrade until 215 guys in front of you have left. You're a CFI now so perhaps you ahven't noticed, but as of lately no one is leaving. When I started at the airlines 3 years ago, I too was going to get a 2 year -ish upgrade. Then the flowthru agreement we had slowed down and stopped, those 75 captains that were supposed to leave never did and I eventually got furloughed.
I DO NOT think you should go somewhere chasing the upgrade, but if you insist, it sure seems more likely that you'd upgrade (maybe even direct hired captain) at Key Lime Air before Colgan. So if that's all you care about there's your answer.

Additional info, I have no idea the work rules at either and thus my comments do not discuss work rules. Either one of those could have work rules that would make it a vastly superior choice, but you'd need pilots from both to find out.

Dare I say, I think 1000 turbine PIC or better will be competitive when hiring picks up again. A large amount of pilots are currently working as RJ captains making between 55-100K per year. The current downturn has lasted over 2 years and many pilots just missed getting into a major during the last hiring spree. Every month that goes by these pilots are another month into their lives. People have houses, kids, wives, cars, motorcycles, child support, BILLS. How many RJ captains are in the their mid 30's and beyond? Many will not be able to take a pay cut of 30-40K a year to start over at a place like Delta or Continental, even though the long term pay off would probably be worth it. They will be somewhat of a slave to the regional. I bet a guy is looking at 3 years to get back to 80K a year if they left for a major. How many can swing that?

How many times have you heard a guy say "I would only leave for UPS, FedEx, or SWA"? How many are those three going to really hire in the future?

How many senior regional pilots made no attempt to leave during the last hiring boom?

Lots of pilots were getting called or hired by the majors in 2007 with less than 1000 turbine PIC despite everyone right after 9/11 saying that it would be ultra competitive.

I predict anyone hired at colgan as of late will do just fine long term.

Thanks! I forgot to mention that. Key Lime has a terrible reputation, and that is sugarcoating it. Ask any of the locals in Denver, the majority will tell you to stay far away from that place. It is not worth it, just for the training contract itself. Did I mention that it was for 18-months worth $7500 to fly a Navajo? And again, if you leave after 17 months, you owe them $7500 and they will come after you! And if you upgrade at 12 months, you sign another contract!

If you want to get some good experience and want to advance into Turbines, I would recommend looking at Ameriflight. They are picking up new guys every month. Friend of mine is upgrading to the BE-99 next month, and he's been with AMF for a year now.

Dare I say, I think 1000 turbine PIC or better will be competitive when hiring picks up again.

I somewhat disagree, the 1000TPIC might be the bare minimum to get looked at, but with the amount of furloughed and laid-off pilots on the street with thousands of hours of TPIC time, it'll be some time before airline will take guys with just a 1000TPIC or less or even none.

How many times have you heard a guy say "I would only leave for UPS, FedEx, or SWA"? How many are those three going to really hire in the future?

True, but I think it is going to be quite some time before these airlines start hiring again. For one, some of them still have pilots in a hiring pool.

Lots of pilots were getting called or hired by the majors in 2007 with less than 1000 turbine PIC despite everyone right after 9/11 saying that it would be ultra competitive.

Yup, but a lot of those folks are also furloughed now. I know a few guys that went to Spirit with no TPIC time.

Right, you will have that initial glut of pilots with far over 1000 PIC, but then you will have guys right at the mins that have rec letters. You also have airlines that like to have a "mix" of experience in every class. It is also important to be aware that often a buddy can not be of help to you at his airline unless you at least have the airlines published minimums and that is one argument against the "1000 PIC won't help you crowd".

Again, I do think it will be competitive, but not as daunting as people think. If you want to be a Delta pilot someday and are currently an FO at a regional, not every single RJ captain with turbine PIC time is in line in front of you.

Thanks!
 

First of all, thankyou to all the of the pilot community for answering the question.

I was given a chance to fly for both and I have chosen Key Lime. I am not a "pay for play" candidate. I got hired Navajo and figure I'll be there 3-5 years (hopefully just 3). By then hopefully things will turn around.

My goals are to fly for a home basing type op like Atlas, ATI, Polar, Net Jets some day.

Airport terminals make me sick these days, and I believe the Colgan FO will have as much of a chance to get furloughed as he does to upgrade in the next 3 years. I know a lot of people that have turned their nose at Key Lime and then have gone on to try and fly for Colgan. I have trouble understanding their rational besides safety perhaps. Colgan seems to have bases that are unaffordable unless you live in a dorm like place or you are faced to commute.

Anyways, I value all of your input. Thanks to all.

Personally I think choosing Key Lime over Colgan is a poor choice.... but if you think that is whats best for you then best of luck!

Truer words have never been spoken. While I can't say I threw in the towel I was down to my last option when I got furloughed. There were LOTS of flying jobs I turned down because I valued my certificates (and my life).

Best of luck with Key Lime, please please please don't fall into the freight dog culture of getting the cargo on the ground and on time at all costs. I know a few friends who have gone from conservative to downright dangerous after a few years of exposure to fly-by-night cargo operations. It's easier to get that mindset than you may think.

"Personally I think choosing Key Lime over Colgan is a poor choice."

Personally, I think it's a great choice....

The chance for turbine PIC experience will come much sooner and you don't have to deal with a bottom feeder regional (no disrespect meant to bottom feeder regional pilots). I was on the UPS ramp at DEN a while back and Key Lime owns the feeder flying. I could see the QOL and pay as a Metro PIC being a much better deal than going the regional new hire route. It's all an individual choice. We had guys leave UPS in 1990 for America West cause they didn't really want to fly freight.

I know Key Lime has a bad rep on the net. I'd say check it out for oneself before one makes the call. Don't listen to us hosers that post on the interweb.

But by all means, good luck and let us know how it turns out, in any case.

Great choice. Colgan is a gamble, you could be furloughed or worse be a 5 year FO stuck somewhere in the northeast. You know what you're going to get at Key Lime, good pay and stability. Both places offer prop TPIC but Colgan is a one way street to other airlines, while Key Lime offers both major and pt135 opportunities down the road. Especially the fractionals like NJ they give priority to pilots from places like Key Lime.

You make a very valid point.... and now I will offer my perspective.... Colgan has 30 new airframes coming onto the property in the next three years with options for another 10... with those new airframes is the need for approximately 11 pilots per airframe. That would equate to 440 pilots if all airframes come on property. I think the industry will recover even if it is slow... when it does recover there will be a loud vacuum sound as pilots leave... the opportunity to upgrade is there (much like Key Lime). You could fly a metro and get the PIC time (don't get me wrong... I love the Metro to death.... my first turbine airframe) or you could wait a little longer and get the PIC time along with glass/FMS/121 crew environment experience.
Just my two cents.... not worth much obviously.... just my take.

And for everyone's benefit.... Colgan has only furloughed once right after 9/11 and recalled everyone with a couple of months.

Good luck. No idea if you made the right choice. I've heard bad things about Key Lime but it's all just random snippets of bad info that a friend heard from a friend. Never really gotten any solid info about the bad stuff. Everybody's heard the bad about Colgan and any other regional for that matter. Hope it works out for you but prepare yourself for disappointment. So far that's all this career has gotten me.

Safety's a pretty important part of this whole flying profession though, wouldn't you agree???

Good luck and fly safe...

Colgan and/or Key lime is a step in the right deirection. Hope you get to one of those places someday.... time is on your side, those companies could be hiring by the time you have the experience to move on

Good luck

Colgan is no more likely to furlough anyone then Key Lime, especially considering we are past the darkest days of the recession and we are about to almost double in size! I don't know if anyone has ever made it to the 5th year FO payscale at Colgan.

Fractionals like any other employer when in need will not care if you have Santa SIC time as long as you have the certificates, the time and sometimes a good rec!

You obviously haven't been in this industry long enough to know that things could change just like that, whether you work for a bottom feeder that's seemingly guaranteed flying or not. It's obviously about who you know, but Key Lime offers better opportunities even if you don't know anyone because they know what kind of pilot they're getting, especially non airline. And actually pt135 places do not want to touch airline guys unless you know someone.

That's not quite true; I know three former regional pilots who were hired at a 135 turboprop/jet operator in my area. I was offered a light jet PIC position with a 135 operator when I was a CRJ FO @ AWAC, although that was early 2007. Also, don't forget that NetJets, CitationShares, Flexjet, Flight Options and Avantair all hired pilots just a couple short years ago from regional airlines with exactly *zero* previous bizav experience - and some weren't even captains at their regional.

Minimwage's 5 yr FO scenario might be stretching it, but it's a possibility nonetheless. Nobody knows the future of our company. I don't know why you guys bring up this irrelevance like Colgan has almost never furloughed, or no FO has reached 5th year pay - just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't. Just look at now. Up until spring '07 hires, I believe there was never in the entire history of Colgan such a thing as an FO who reached 4th year pay. How many of them are there now and will be? My point is if you had said two years ago (when 2 yr upgrade was max, even that was uncommon) that guys will be on 4th year pay at Colgan everyone would've scoffed at you.
Applicants posting here need/want to be aware of the possibilities and to suggest something won't happen because it never happened before is just plain unhelpful.

True! How about that short furlough after 9/11? Was that a voluntary furlough? I heard it was. I didn't mean to suggest that it was not possible to hit the 5 year mark as an FO. The poster I was responding to made it sound like that would be common. I have yet to meet an FO who has been at Colgan that long.

While anything is possible, I think a long stint as an FO at Colgan is less likely due to the planned growth and improving economy.

Another thing to consider. As a 135 freight dog, I've averaged about 600 hours per year, I'm sure at Colgan, you'll double that. I'll leave that to you to decide which is better, it's your career. For me it's more a matter of enjoying the road (not necessarily getting there faster), thus I fly cargo.

My statements are based on a close source at a big fractional. You are definitely an exception. And some regional guys come from previous pt135 time.

Sure there are some regional guys with previous 135 time - just like there are some 135 guys with regional time.

I can't count on both hands the number of guys I know hired from regional airlines to fractional operators in the 2006-2008 time frame...and Avantair's most recent newhire class reportedly had quite a few regional airline guys in it.

Obviously you and your friend's mileage may vary...<shrug>

Except that he wont. The FAA limits you to 1000 a year.