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Originally Posted by flyguy23
(Post 818397)
If I understand it correctly, what FAPA is trying to do actually makes sense for them. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but they are not trying to remain permanently seperate, rather delay the SLI implementation until the end of the LOA they signed upon the purchase of Frontier. I believe this agreement is good until 2015. This gives them a windfall when (if) the C-series ever comes along. If its a replacement aircraft, it will have to go on the F9 cert (according to the LOA) and the frontier pilots will fill every seat. If they are growth aircraft, it will ensure that nearly every F9 pilot will upgrade before any Republic/midwest/lynx pilot get a shot at that seat. If the sli is implemented before those aircraft come on board, it will be a vacancy bid and anyone with enough seniority can hold it. I would expect FAPA to look out for their own and at least to me, that is what is occuring here.
I haven't seen anything that suggests FAPA wants to remain permanently seperate, just a delay. While I do not think this will be possible, as the LOA violates the Republic scope, I understand why they'd try. The major downfall to this is that the midwest and lynx pilots would not be integrated until the expiration of the frontier LOA if the arbitrator rules in favor of FAPA. The final ruling from the arbitrator just got a lot more complicated. Will be very interesting. |
Makes perfect sense...
...and they might as well change their call sign to "Whipsaw." |
Originally Posted by thevagabond
(Post 818553)
Exactly. Read this Airdale.
Originally Posted by flyguy23
(Post 818397)
If I understand it correctly, what FAPA is trying to do actually makes sense for them. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but they are not trying to remain permanently seperate, rather delay the SLI implementation until the end of the LOA they signed upon the purchase of Frontier. I believe this agreement is good until 2015. This gives them a windfall when (if) the C-series ever comes along. If its a replacement aircraft, it will have to go on the F9 cert (according to the LOA) and the frontier pilots will fill every seat. If they are growth aircraft, it will ensure that nearly every F9 pilot will upgrade before any Republic/midwest/lynx pilot get a shot at that seat. If the sli is implemented before those aircraft come on board, it will be a vacancy bid and anyone with enough seniority can hold it. I would expect FAPA to look out for their own and at least to me, that is what is occuring here.
I haven't seen anything that suggests FAPA wants to remain permanently seperate, just a delay. While I do not think this will be possible, as the LOA violates the Republic scope, I understand why they'd try. The major downfall to this is that the midwest and lynx pilots would not be integrated until the expiration of the frontier LOA if the arbitrator rules in favor of FAPA. The final ruling from the arbitrator just got a lot more complicated. Will be very interesting.
Originally Posted by planediveguy
(Post 818549)
You are assuming the C-Series will be placed on the F9 Certificate... whithout SLI you can count on those planes being placed on the Republic Certificate and the F9 guys getting whipsawed to shreds...
Originally Posted by airbill
(Post 818660)
Makes perfect sense...
...and they might as well change their call sign to "Whipsaw." The only think I ask, is that when Republic pilots are forced to take over routes at Frontier, that not a single person labels us a SCAB for taking THER JOBS. When every last Frontier pilot is on the street because they were outsource by our cheap "Regional" labor, I will not be labeled a scab. Ya'll have your chance. In the words of my little neice - OMFG I'm not doing this anymore. |
Originally Posted by Airdale
(Post 818817)
The only think I ask, is that when Republic pilots are forced to take over routes at Frontier, that not a single person labels us a SCAB for taking THER JOBS. When every last Frontier pilot is on the street because they were outsource by our cheap "Regional" labor, I will not be labeled a scab. Ya'll have your chance.
As far as I'm concerned Republic already did this once to Midwest, whats the difference in how you are viewed now as opposed to after Republic finishes gutting Frontier. |
If the arbitrator chooses to honor the Frontier LOA, then the C-series will go on the F9 certificate. There is almost no chance of this happening though. Its a last ditch effort by FAPA to come out on top in this thing. The arbitrator COULD delay implementation until a common contract is ratified. If thats the case, 2015 may be aiming high. The company will drag their feet for 10 years on a new contract if they're able.
A side note: The republic contract would REQUIRE the C-series or any new aircraft be flown by those on the chq seniority list. The F9 LOA would require those planes be flown by F9 due to the weight. Its just a fact that this will turn into a big mess and we'll all lose in the end. |
Originally Posted by flyguy23
(Post 818851)
If the arbitrator chooses to honor the Frontier LOA, then the C-series will go on the F9 certificate. There is almost no chance of this happening though. Its a last ditch effort by FAPA to come out on top in this thing. The arbitrator COULD delay implementation until a common contract is ratified. If thats the case, 2015 may be aiming high. The company will drag their feet for 10 years on a new contract if they're able.
Strike... Strike... Strike... One list. Now. |
I'd be willing to walk out tomorrow based on this companies actions. A huge majority of those at RAH would join me. The problem is going to be getting our release to self help. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if the NMB deems us too big and never releases us. The company is well aware of this.
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Listen kids...I don't think anyone is going to get excited about this whole SLI process. Us RAH folks think it's gone on long enough, FAPA obviously sees something they don't like, and management is probably laughing all the way to the bank. The simple fact of the matter is you don't invade Russia in the winter and you don't fight a war on 2 fronts. Valuable resources are being used aruging amongst ourselves when RAH should be using them on a new contract. A contract that we should be getting the assistance from our more experienced FAPA coworkers but aren't...cuz they don't want anything to do with us.
The simple fact of the matter is that 2 lists working under 2 contracts is only good for the company...not any of the pilot groups. I'm not advocating some hastily thrown-together decision that does not recognize the role F9 pilots have played in keeping their company afloat...but I also think that they are not really recognizing just how untenable their position was before RAH came along. |
Originally Posted by SharkyBN584
(Post 818886)
Listen kids...I don't think anyone is going to get excited about this whole SLI process. Us RAH folks think it's gone on long enough, FAPA obviously sees something they don't like, and management is probably laughing all the way to the bank. The simple fact of the matter is you don't invade Russia in the winter and you don't fight a war on 2 fronts. Valuable resources are being used aruging amongst ourselves when RAH should be using them on a new contract. A contract that we should be getting the assistance from our more experienced FAPA coworkers but aren't...cuz they don't want anything to do with us.
The simple fact of the matter is that 2 lists working under 2 contracts is only good for the company...not any of the pilot groups. I'm not advocating some hastily thrown-together decision that does not recognize the role F9 pilots have played in keeping their company afloat...but I also think that they are not really recognizing just how untenable their position was before RAH came along. Nice spin. So your saying that FAPA has sided with RAH management because they just won't do whatever the IBT wants. Here I thought the problem was the IBT was to cozy with RAH management. |
Originally Posted by FLEX
(Post 818911)
Nice spin. So your saying that FAPA has sided with RAH management because they just won't do whatever the IBT wants. Here I thought the problem was the IBT was to cozy with RAH management.
As someone said above, we should be unified right now, not divided. Otherwise, all that effort you guys are making is merely pulling hard on your side of the whipsaw. Your choice. |
Originally Posted by SharkyBN584
(Post 818886)
Listen kids...I don't think anyone is going to get excited about this whole SLI process. Us RAH folks think it's gone on long enough, FAPA obviously sees something they don't like, and management is probably laughing all the way to the bank. The simple fact of the matter is you don't invade Russia in the winter and you don't fight a war on 2 fronts. Valuable resources are being used aruging amongst ourselves when RAH should be using them on a new contract. A contract that we should be getting the assistance from our more experienced FAPA coworkers but aren't...cuz they don't want anything to do with us.
The simple fact of the matter is that 2 lists working under 2 contracts is only good for the company...not any of the pilot groups. I'm not advocating some hastily thrown-together decision that does not recognize the role F9 pilots have played in keeping their company afloat...but I also think that they are not really recognizing just how untenable their position was before RAH came along. |
Originally Posted by FLEX
(Post 818911)
Nice spin. So your saying that FAPA has sided with RAH management because they just won't do whatever the IBT wants. Here I thought the problem was the IBT was to cozy with RAH management.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised by any of this. I don't think there is a single person out there who thought this would be a smooth or easy process. My prediction is it will get worse before it gets better. Regarding the representation issues brought up and the supposed "IBT Propaganda Machine"; I wouldn't doubt this for a second in retrospect. I think the biggest benefit of integrating lists is a fast track to self-representation via FAPA. Hopefully a lot of RAH pilots see it that way as well. |
Originally Posted by SharkyBN584
(Post 819014)
That is not even close to what I was saying. I'm saying that FAPA obviously does not like the way the proceedings seem to be going and are trying to prove a point to strengthen their case. I don't know what is or why, I'm just saying that's the way it appears to someone on the outside looking in that only receives vague updates from the IBT.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised by any of this. I don't think there is a single person out there who thought this would be a smooth or easy process. My prediction is it will get worse before it gets better. Regarding the representation issues brought up and the supposed "IBT Propaganda Machine"; I wouldn't doubt this for a second in retrospect. I think the biggest benefit of integrating lists is a fast track to self-representation via FAPA. Hopefully a lot of RAH pilots see it that way as well. |
When I say "FAPA" I am not referring to the current operation they have over there. Assume "FAPA" really means "RAPA" and is simply meant to be an in-house union where we represent ourselves. By "we" I mean all the RAH, F9, YX, and Lynx guys around. Self-Representation means your dues go to protect your job and there is no conflict of interest when it comes to contract negotiation. IBT has bumbled around for years with no real results.
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I have a question for Frontier guys/gals.
Are you going to fight for a single carrier status? And if so, when do you think the "Force Majuer" clause from LOA 39 will be implemented? |
Originally Posted by Ratherbeoffwork
(Post 819400)
I have a question for Frontier guys/gals.
Are you going to fight for a single carrier status? And if so, when do you think the "Force Majuer" clause from LOA 39 will be implemented? |
Originally Posted by Ratherbeoffwork
(Post 819400)
I have a question for Frontier guys/gals.
Are you going to fight for a single carrier status? And if so, when do you think the "Force Majuer" clause from LOA 39 will be implemented? "Force Majeure" can be enacted by bb with the current republic contract or loa 39. "Adverse economic conditions" is a pretty broad statement...that is what republic has in their current cba. |
Adverse economic conditions can happen any day of the week. All I'm afraid of is if we don't implement the sli, a whipsaw will ensue. Our management has already tried it once. It seems like this is what they really want.
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Originally Posted by Ratherbeoffwork
(Post 819619)
Adverse economic conditions can happen any day of the week. All I'm afraid of is if we don't implement the sli, a whipsaw will ensue. Our management has already tried it once. It seems like this is what they really want.
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Originally Posted by Woodbourne
(Post 819587)
"Force Majeure" can be enacted by bb with the current republic contract or loa 39. "Adverse economic conditions" is a pretty broad statement...that is what republic has in their current cba.
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Originally Posted by G-Dog
(Post 819878)
I am sorry, are you implying that BB can change the RAH CBA when economic times get rough? I think not. They can change the F9 contract though in the aforementioned conditions. Correct me if I am wrong, but if I am right about the F9 contract, they are in for some rough times ahead.
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Originally Posted by G-Dog
(Post 819878)
I am sorry, are you implying that BB can change the RAH CBA when economic times get rough? I think not. They can change the F9 contract though in the aforementioned conditions. Correct me if I am wrong, but if I am right about the F9 contract, they are in for some rough times ahead.
Whether or not we are in for some "rough times" has nothing to do with loa 39 and its wording. The process for implementation and integration of our list(s) is governed by the LAW..not the ibt, alpa, fapa or anyone else. Your union is doing you the disservice of assuming you guys will believe what they say. I am not being trite when I say you need to educate yourself by reading and researching the RLA, Allegheny Mowhawk and previous sli negotations...especially ones ruled upon by Eischen. I agree that one list is very critical against whipsaw; however, the process is what it is and there will not be implementation the day after the new list is announced. |
Be careful not to post Trade Secret information guys. Companies do not like that.
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 819980)
Be careful not to post Trade Secret information guys. Companies do not like that.
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Contract language, though guarded at times, is certainly not proprietary. With that said there is no public access granted to the current FAPA contract. The most logical leak of our contract language to the RAH group would be from the IBT who gained access during discovery.
Now some may cry, FLEX you posted language from the RAH contract. I gained access to the RAH contract through a simple internet search. https://www.republicpilots.org/, allows you to save a copy from a public forum. |
Originally Posted by FLEX
(Post 821307)
With that said there is no public access granted to the current FAPA contract.
1) Downloads 2) Airline Pilot Contracts 3) Major/National/LCC 4) Frontier Contract hot! |
Originally Posted by aviatormjc
(Post 821338)
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/
1) Downloads 2) Airline Pilot Contracts 3) Major/National/LCC 4) Frontier Contract hot! Please accept my apology for my inaccurate statement. I stand corrected. You can gain access to the FAPA contract from a public forum. FLEX |
There are a few Frontier/Lynx turbo props parked in SDF sans engines and props. Overhaul, storage, engines repoed, aircraft headed for scrap?:confused:
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Engines are being leased back to the manufacturer until a buyer is found. Planes are definitely not being scrapped.
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Originally Posted by flyguy23
(Post 821834)
Engines are being leased back to the manufacturer until a buyer is found. Planes are definitely not being scrapped.
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Originally Posted by 757upspilot
(Post 822027)
Did they layoff the pilots that flew them or where they replaced with something else?
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Originally Posted by Flyboyrw
(Post 822037)
Laid off almost all of them, then rest by Sept. Know of anyone hiring??
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Reading this makes me feel so much better about my decision to grab the shovel and start making my own path in life. All my fellow YX pilots can understand why I don't trust an arbitrator as far as I can throw one. I sat through the hearings back in 08' and blatantly saw the arbitrator consider facts that he explicitly told the company weren't relevant to the case. Being on furlough has really reminded me how much I enjoy sleeping in my own bed every night and being with my fiance' a whole lot more than I got to while on the road. Plus I get to go up to the lake and fish whenever I want! I still love flying (I don't think any pilot could give up that love) and still throw the occasional app out there to see if anything sticks but I am not looking back and not regretting it one bit. All my best to ALL the pilots still involved with this CF of a SLI and airline acquisition/merger. Not everyone is going to be happy with whatever the decision is but no matter what the outcome life goes on. There are plenty of other opportunities out there. Some just require digging a little deeper insider yourself and be willing to step out of your comfort zone. Good luck to everyone!
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Originally Posted by blue17flyer
(Post 824841)
Reading this makes me feel so much better about my decision to grab the shovel and start making my own path in life. All my fellow YX pilots can understand why I don't trust an arbitrator as far as I can throw one. I sat through the hearings back in 08' and blatantly saw the arbitrator consider facts that he explicitly told the company weren't relevant to the case. Being on furlough has really reminded me how much I enjoy sleeping in my own bed every night and being with my fiance' a whole lot more than I got to while on the road. Plus I get to go up to the lake and fish whenever I want! I still love flying (I don't think any pilot could give up that love) and still throw the occasional app out there to see if anything sticks but I am not looking back and not regretting it one bit. All my best to ALL the pilots still involved with this CF of a SLI and airline acquisition/merger. Not everyone is going to be happy with whatever the decision is but no matter what the outcome life goes on. There are plenty of other opportunities out there. Some just require digging a little deeper insider yourself and be willing to step out of your comfort zone. Good luck to everyone!
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Now I just want to know what you got into out side of aviation blue17flyer? because I'm all ears on what direction to go to. Looked at becoming an FBI agent but after talking to a few who I've had on my flights I realized that the manditory min 50 hour work weeks along with shifting days off would have me in the same crappy quality of life that I have now with not being able to plan things outside of work and go back to school since my days off and my schedule would never be set. Hell I've even thought of going for the tsa jobs. Anything to get out of this crappy existance that we call a career.
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Anything new on the 100 seat arbitration?
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