Sli At Republic/frontier
 

Gents,
Is there any word on the SLI at republic / frontier? Has is gone to arbitration? What are all the groups feeling about how it is shaping up? How slow is the process taking? When is the planned date to release SLI? Are there plans to fence off the Aribi? DOH or relative sonority, or some combination? Hoping all involved get a fair deal.
Best of luck and thanks for the info
-Aloha

The presentations in front of the arbitrator have been going on this week, and should be concluded by the end of the week. Originally these presentations were to have wrapped up in March, but the various parties took more time than planned cross-examining each others' witnesses and this second week was needed. Once the presentations are done, the arbitrator will take about 60 days to release his verdict, though it could be longer or shorter at his discretion.

As for opinions, the rank and file pilots don't have any real opinion because all parties signed confidentiality agreements. No one outside of the integration committees knows what is going on or what has been said, so you really need to disregard any rants about unfairness or entitlement until the award is published. Once the arbitrator gives his award, the positions and requests of each union will be made known, and we can finally begin to see how reasonable or unreasonable our particular representatives were. Even then, it is quite likely that each side probably asked for more than is fair, but that is just part of the game.

As for the integration particulars, only the arbitrator knows what he thinks is fair. The aforementioned confidentiality agreements keep us from knowing if fences were asked for during negotiations or the subsequent arbitration. The same applies to methods of combination. Regardless of what each side asked for (an unknown until a decision is rendered), the arbitrator will do what he thinks is appropriate. DOH, relative seniority, furlough vs. active status, equipment fences, base fences, rebidding of equipment... all of that is in the hands of one man now.

Now, I said to disregard all opinions, but I will offer this one anyway. I hope the arbitrator is painfully explicit in his judgment, and that he spells out exactly how determining basing and equipment will be handled, because Bryan Bedford and Wayne Heller have proven time and again that they will exploit any ambiguity in wording for their benefit. Right now we have a fairly major grievance that the union won, but the company is now disputing the award saying that they interpret the judges award differently than the union does, and therefore they have not complied with the award. If a comma is in the wrong place, the just application of the new SLI could be messed up for years.

Rumor from the streets is it was supposed to end yesterday and be in the arbitrator's hands...but my friend says it was held up and was ****ed that it might end up being screwed up bit wouldn't go into and more detail.

It appears one of the four groups is delaying the process by conducting a long and drawn out cross examination of witnesses. The process was not finished this week and will be continued at some future time. The last time it took 2 months to get the current round of discussions scheduled due to the schedule of the arbitrator.

Plan on another two months before they meet again.

Exactly. 2.5 months to get back into the arbitrators schedule. Plan on not seeing a ruling by the arbitrator before Halloween.

Might as well just break out the STAPLER, because apparently one group does not want to cooperate with one seniority list. They'd rather have a whipsaw.

Seriously? [edit: deleted insults] Thank you.

Did you ever think that maybe the parties involved in this SLI might actually have valid concerns and questions, and may exercise their legal right to question the witnesses presented by the other unions so as to make sure there is no misrepresentation or omission of information? Everyone is presenting the best case they can. No one pilot group is dragging their heels, and though the pace is frustrating, everyone involved should be pleased that everything is being put on the table to serve their particular interests. This is a very complex and unprecedented integration. If there was an quick and easy solution, it would have been arrived at during negotiations. That said, if this round of hearings has wrapped up and there is still more to be heard, then I am a little upset at the arbitrator for not dictating a more rigid timetable. But that is his fault, and not the fault of a single pilot in this debate.

Arbitrator gets paid every time he hears facts of a case...right?

Why set a "more rigid timetable" if the clients want to drag their feet and pay you more money?

Depending on how the arbitrator gets paid, having it drag out may be to his advantage financially. If it continues to drag out the RAH pilot group is status qou and Frontier guys stay put.

Midwest pilots all furloughed, advantage RAH pilots, Lynx shutting down, advantage RAH pilots.

I hear what your saying Rightseat Ballast and I make no predictions about the outcome but despite the confidentiality agreement word is getting out about the process, drag on it will.

Republic finished thier arguments, you can point your finger at your brothers at FAPA

And how is this an advantage for RAH? I agree this is a hugh disadvantage for both Midwest and Lynx, but I see the biggest advantage is for Frontier. They benefit by preventing intergration over the short haul. Eventually some F9 pilots will be below RAH pilots, just as some RAH will be below F9. Not to mention the MW and Lynx will be intergrated throughout the list.

This delay only hurts RAH because contract talks will not resume until the SLI is complete. A much overdue CBA is needed. The majority of the planes that RAH operates were not even on property when the last contract was written.

It is not the RAH group who is dragging out the process. One of the other three groups are delaying by having very long cross exams.

In my opinion the SLI needs to be completed, followed by a vote to decide what union will represent, then the group as a whole can go to contract talks. A contract written now will be worthless as many restrictions (fences etc...) will be determined by the arbitrator. Write the contract with those included.

I appreciate your offer, but no thanks. The longer this SLI drags on, the longer Midwest pilots are out of work. The longer it takes until we get a new contract. The longer we fly 190's for garbage pay rates and the better the opportunity for F9 to really get farmed out. You really have no concept of reality in the airline industry, as evidenced by your frequent posts of uneducated ramblings. There are no "witnesses" that need to be interviewed. This SLI process has taken long enough. There has been plenty of time for FAPA to present their case. This is a purposeful attempt to keep F9 separate and undermine the scope clause that the IBT has in place.

No good can come from keeping F9 on a separate list. None what so ever. Any delusions one might have about keeping the Airbus flying away from the RAH seniority list is just that - a delusion. F9 can stay on a separate list, and any reasonable pilot with a knowledge of the history of this industry can predict that Republic will be used to slowly destroy F9. Why keep F9 pilots flying the Airbus when cheap labor is just a click away. It's called a whipsaw, and if you think RAH management isn't capable of that, lets recall how the Republic certificate started. Any new aircraft will go the Republic certificate because it's cheaper.

One can understand being an F9 pilot and not wanting to merge seniority lists with a "Regional" airline, but mark my words - with no merger, they will sign the fate of their career over to a mode of self destruction. They are the more expensive labor group, they will not win. The only positive scenario is a fair and equitable integration, strength for a strong employment contract and job protection through a scope clause. Dragging this SLI out is hurting all of the parties involved and doing nothing but make RAH management smile.

We want a fair intergration, but if F9 feels their best interest in to be a separate list, then you might as well break out the stapler, because its going to get ugly. The IBT has yet to lose a scope arbitration, and thanks to their rock solid contract language, they won't lose this one either. Whose to say what outcome will lie in store for F9.

Each side presents witnesses (airline analysts, financial experts, etc.) who justify the position of each union. Those witnesses are then cross examined by representatives from the other parties. That is straight from the mouth of an integration committee participant.

FAPA did question RAH's experts for a seemingly long time during the first week, but I honestly would expect them to. They have everything to lose and little to gain outside of keeping their current jobs. Midwest, RAH, and to some degree Lynx, are all presenting cases that aim to provide their pilots with the quickest possible access to the highest paying equipment (the Airbus). FAPA would be foolish not to try to undermine every single witness who presents a case contradictory to their own. That takes time, but it is what we would all expect our leadership to do if we held the relative high ground. Midwest pilots and a growing number of Lynx pilots are losing out, but their time and energy now could pay off dividends in a few months. I don't hear Midwest pilots grumbling about the arbitration process. They understand how the process works. They don't keep digging up Staplers.

Looks like FAPA is challenging there being any intergration at all. Going to be a long drawn out nasty fight. Big losers will be YX and Lynx pilots watching from the sidelines.

Rightseat ballast... i think your wrong. I think the frontier pilots have a lot to lose as well. If they keep things separate, in 3 years the airbuses will be going away and the c3000s will be headed to the republic certificate. Bedford will whipsaw each side against each other and we will all end up out of jobs. Intentionally delaying the SLI is idiotic and will be detrimental to all of our careers.

Why in the world is the ibt delaying the current section 6 negotiations?! Even if sli decision occurred tomorrow the rah cba will remain in effect for years during status quo period. You should speed ip, not slow down!

I really don't mind being wrong, I promise, but I did say that Frontier pilots have everything to lose and little to gain. However, thoroughly stating their case in front of the arbitrator is a reasonable expectation, as it can go a long way to stop losses at the hand of the arbitrator.

In order to proceed with negotiations, the IBT needs to have a starting point. Right now, the next step after SLI is contract amalgamation, or the combining of the various labor contracts into one cohesive document. If the combined contract gives us duty rigs or better reserve rules, or increases our days off, etc, then why waste our negotiating capital on those items now? How can we work on pay if we aren't sure exactly how every position is compensated? I agree the IBT needs to be aggressive once the contract gets sorted out after SLI, but until I feel waiting is the best course. It also gives our negotiating committee time to better understand the new way of business, and how we as pilots can turn this shift in revenue into a major improvement in our QOL.

At least RightSeatBallast sees the light here. Some people claimed all the RAH pilots were just licking their collective chops at flying the Airbus and relegating those "Frontier" pilots back to regional jets. You sir, along with Airdale and others, are truly myopic in thinking Frontier would not fight tooth and nail to keep their current positions and current pay. I expect nothing less of them. They already left "regional" careers, gave up their seniority and moved on to a better career goal in Frontier. Just because RAH bought them some people EXPECT them to go backwards in career expectations? Seriously? And one of the requirements of obtaining an ATP certificate is exercising good judgement?

I would like to make an equally preposterous suggestion. Maybe the Frontier guys will take a date of hire integration. Just give them the date of hire at the regional they left to fly at Frontier. If we are going to use regional seniority at one company, why not use it at all? Midwest pilots too for that matter. Some of those pilots at both places were hired at their previous employer 20 years ago. Let's give them 20 years seniority.

No good? Then try not to act suprised and indignant about Frontier pilots fighting for their jobs. I would have expected nothing less. If the SLI shafts the Frontier guys, some of those at RAH will be praying for a Midwest pilot for the next month's pairing. For historical reference, think the United strike and pilots who walked vs. pilots who crossed flying together in the late 80's. The FAA threatened to get involved because of the cockpit hostility shown between pilots. Cockpits are small places. Better to be friendly. Safer too.

From an outside perspective, you are assuming a number of things that remain to be determined.

1. Ibt may not be the bargaining unit.
2. The republic holdings carriers may not be deemed a single carrier.
3. If all of the above happen, we all would be better off if the ibt had a new and imroved cba to "combine".

In short, sitting on your current pos cba is not a good idea.

As a curious outsider, I have a couple of questions.

1 - Where would the Frontier pilot group be if RAH had not bought them? If Southwest succeeded weren't they going to staple and furlough Frontier pilots? What if neither RAH or Southwest had stepped in - would there even be Frontier jobs?

2 - What is unfair about RAH's integration proposal? (I haven't read any details and would love facts, not speculation about regional pilot ambitions.)

3 - If the RAH pilot group is successful, wouldn't RAH become a major by default? Aren't they fighting tooth and nail now to bring pay up to major levels as well?

4 - If the Frontier pilots remain separate, does anyone truly believe the Frontier pilot group will still exist in another decade or so? If so, how exactly will they avoid the inevitable whipsaw game that management will play?

Timmy do you feel better now? I'm going to have to go back and read the one sentence I wrote to see where I gave my opinion as to how the SLI should go. The poster I responded to made it sound as though the RAH pilots are delaying the integration in order to reap all the benefits. Since that is not the case I felt compelled to respond. During the second round of arbitration, FAPA, not the IBT decided that they no longer wished to combine lists with the other groups and try to stay seperate. Now while I can completely understand why they would want to do this, sir, the tragedy is that Midwest pilots and Lynx pilots will be left out on the street until it is decided on if there will be an integration with Frontier... or not... again.

Now here is my opinion friend. I don't think it's RAH pilots at all that FAPA is worried about, it's the Midwest pilots that have a better Date of Hire. For what it's worth... which isn't much.

Labor issue arbitrations that I've been involved in were negotiated ahead of time as to how much, and who pays. Obviously, every case is unique.

First of all, I never said that Frontier shouldn't fight for their current positions and pay. But delaying, dragging out and otherwise refusing to intergrate is going to save their pay and positions? Please. You're so smart, tell us, what do you think RAH management would do with a seperate F9 pilot list? They'd slowly dismantle what is Frontier, just like they did Midwest. Bedford and Heller WANT separate lists! They WANT leverage. They FEAR a strong pilot group on ONE seniority list. Go back and look at history - Bedford started Republic and WANTED it to be a separate company, separate seniority list. Can you say TSA/Go-jet!? He was going to use the E170 to whipsaw the hell out of the RAH pilot group. You think that won't happen with F9!?? LOL! Please!

If the Frontier pilots do not integrate, MARK MY WORDS, they are DOOMING THEIR CAREERS. Bedford will destroy their precious airline with cheap labor! I've said it in the past, I will say it again. Put EVERY Frontier and Midwest pilot ahead of me on the seniority list and I wouldn't complain or shed a tear. But I want them on our seniority list because it is what Bedford does NOT want.

As far as protecting their equipment, well I sure hope they aren't attached to their "equipment", because when they remain a separate seniority list, I'll be flying E190's and whatever other aircraft Republic wants in F9 colors while the F9 pilots are whipsawed into submission. And unfortunately, there won't be a damn thing I or anyone else will be able to do about it. This is the chance for F9 to prevent this. They can put 5yr+ fences on the Airbus. There are ways to integrate seniority without giving up your pay and position.

This is why I am getting out of this industry. I want no desire to be a part of a such a ridiculous industry where your co-workers are you own worst enemy. It's absurd. This industry is doomed, I just wish I realized it before dumping so much money into the training. :rolleyes:

They are going to be replaced by E190s. The C-Series announcement was to scare Embraer, and so they would cut BB a deal on the 190s so BB can save some more coin.
BB hates Bombardier products, I bet even his jet-skis are Yamaha or Polaris

Need to investigate it a little bro.

I think there's a lot of other questions that could use answering before you wonder why we haven't negotiated new rates on a 50 seat erj.

I can see it play out right now if F9 stays a separate seniority list.

WH (Wayne Heller, the bad cop) - We need concessions from your pilots

F9 (FAPA) - No way

WH - Pay concessions or we'll have to start placing 190's and Republic pilots on your routes. This will lead to furloughs

F9 - Pound sand. We won't do it

WH - The financial numbers at F9 do not support your mainline wages, I think an arbitrator would agree.

F9 - See you in arbitration

WH - Ok, in the meantime, we're going to furlough half your pilot group. We don't abide by the IBT CBA, what makes you think we'll abide by yours? Fly it and grieve...or in your case, collect unemployment and grieve it.


Mark my words dudes, it will happen. The only way to prevent this is ONE seniority list across every certificate. Not only that, but we will then have negotiating power to protect and raise pay and working conditions.

Not to mention - who's locking out the Midwest pilots now? (by delaying integration)

Oh Oh Oh, I know! I KNOW! PICK ME! PICK ME!

WAIT FOR IT....



MANAGEMENT!

And no one else. Period.

Nice try on the substitution logic. It almost makes sense until someone thinks it over.

That was a comment directed toward the famous "Dirty Rat" or MD80 guy who continually blamed the Republic pilots for "locking out" the Midwest pilots.

The E190 and CSeries are two completely different aircraft. The CSeries can carry up to 145 pax and the order for the initial 40 is a confirmed order.

Agreed. It's shameful and disgusting what happened to the Midwest folks. But it was management who did it, not the pilots still flying while this new deal works itself out. I apologize for any of the pilots from RAH who come on here
criticizing FAPA for looking out for the interests of the Frontier pilots. Call me captain obvious but that's what individual unions are supposed to do.

Nevermind....

Embraer is already going to make something bigger....and a "confirmed" order doesn't mean jack

BB and WH knew what they were doing. They killed 3 birds with 1 stone.

1. Got BB into a position to be a major.......feeding his megalomaniac self

2. Side benefit was SLI puts off even further having to settle a new contract whereas he KNEW arbitration would happen and it would be dragged out. No brainer.

3. Gets an unspecified time extension beyond the 2007 contract amendable date to continue to pay his pilots joke wages before having to agree to something better.

All in all shrewed business moves completely on the backs of his employees. He and WH stepped on the ant hill and are laughing at the thousands of ants trying to figure out what to do.

They signed a purchase agreement. I'm no lawyer but from the articles it sounds like a done deal. Also they were able to take advantage of finance options only available to them by going with CSeries.

although i havent seen specifics bedford did mention that the deal is cost neutral untill the airplane fliies and i am sure their are clauses that allow RAH to withdraw the order if the airplane is delayed. The whole thing is nothin more than a bluff to get Embraer to build a bigger 190 type of airplane. its the same thing united did by saying they were talking to usair.

Come on Captain obvious, can't you see what is obvious?

Nobody is saying FAPA shouldn't be looking out for their own pilots. But what part of whip/-saw do they not understand? Delaying or trying to put off all together a seniority list integration is foolish and is certainly not looking out for their own pilots.

If I understand it correctly, what FAPA is trying to do actually makes sense for them. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but they are not trying to remain permanently seperate, rather delay the SLI implementation until the end of the LOA they signed upon the purchase of Frontier. I believe this agreement is good until 2015. This gives them a windfall when (if) the C-series ever comes along. If its a replacement aircraft, it will have to go on the F9 cert (according to the LOA) and the frontier pilots will fill every seat. If they are growth aircraft, it will ensure that nearly every F9 pilot will upgrade before any Republic/midwest/lynx pilot get a shot at that seat. If the sli is implemented before those aircraft come on board, it will be a vacancy bid and anyone with enough seniority can hold it. I would expect FAPA to look out for their own and at least to me, that is what is occuring here.

I haven't seen anything that suggests FAPA wants to remain permanently seperate, just a delay. While I do not think this will be possible, as the LOA violates the Republic scope, I understand why they'd try. The major downfall to this is that the midwest and lynx pilots would not be integrated until the expiration of the frontier LOA if the arbitrator rules in favor of FAPA.

The final ruling from the arbitrator just got a lot more complicated. Will be very interesting.

You are assuming the C-Series will be placed on the F9 Certificate... whithout SLI you can count on those planes being placed on the Republic Certificate and the F9 guys getting whipsawed to shreds...