Well if you don't like the integration the responsibility will fall squarely on the shoulders of the arbitrator. Based on what I have heard each pilot group's integration reps have asked for the most favorable conditions for their respective pilot group, just as they should. The final decision is in the hands of the arbitrator. At least Rat will not be able to blame that on the RAH pilots.

No you aren't. When was your last negotiating session with the company? Remember your worthless union can't walk and chew bubble gum.

and your worthless union cant negotiate a scope clause

oh snap...

To be honest you are correct that negotiations ceased for a period of time. It wasn't because of inept leadership. The union did what was best for the pilot group. It might not have felt great but it was the best course of action with hindsight being 20/20.

There was a lot of progress made until a realization happened that a certain individual was abusing his position within the union for personal benefit. That has since been corrected. After his removal the best course of action then seemed to halt contract negotiations until integration was complete. Why? Because it's hard to strike or bargain when there's no single seniority list.

I understand your distaste for the situation but try and be a little more professional about it. There's not a single person on this list that has chosen to be put in this situation. New fleet types along with additional certificates and a complete change to the business structure means things need to take time to be done correctly. Don't get me wrong I wish like no other that a new contract was in place yesterday but I won't pretend I'm ignorant enough to not understand why it isn't. Things worth having take time. Slowing things down to give us more leverage going forward definitely wasn't the easy road. Knock it all you'd like but anyone that takes a moment to look at the situation will know better. Sooner or later you're going to have to realize things are better when working together rather than taking cheap shots when able.

Damn...burn of the week right there!

Burn of the week?? I think everyone seems to forget to easily that those guys stood up for what was right and tried to preserve everyones careers. It still makes me sick when I'm flying and am told to follow the "Midwest" aircraft. It was the teamsters that gladly stepped in and started flying this 100 err 99 seat aircraft.

As for the sli, I personally think it will take years before we ever see a rah pilot on the f9 cert. Let's just pray we are not single carrier status so we can preserve what's right for our f9 first officers.

Actually there's a grievance on the 99 seat aircraft. Wanting to stay separate is a death sentence. Integration needs to be completed.

watch out for the ole' whip sawwwww if you stay separate.

Ok, we are drifting here but this is just something that make zero sense to me.

Assume for a minute that the NMB decides we are a single carrier, and then the IBT prevails in the representation drive. We are all IBT members, and there is already an IBT CBA in place. A combined/almagamated CBA will result using the existing IBT CBA.

If the IBT had continued their Section 6 negotiations and improved ANY section of the current CBA, we would all benefit from it in the combined CBA. Instead, we are stuck with the current POS CBA.

No workrules.
No duty limits.
No retirement.
No cancellation pay.
No training or vacation conflict drop protection.
Article 7 Vacancies is such an abomination that I just can't continue to read the rest of the CBA.

Why the IBT is sitting on their arses and not negotiating is simply mindboggling. The company is actually equally surprised, and pleased, at the IBT's complete lack of planning and representation.

If this scenario plays out, will the IBT then restart the Section 6 negotiations? Congrats, you just wasted two plus years at the table. That is two additional years of working under the same workrules and pay.

Exactly. Well said. It's embarrassing when one of our people pops off like that. I ignore the bitter souls and as such this forum is vastly improved. I agree with your feelings about your F.O.s.

Yes F9 that was the burn of the week, hope that answered your question. Next, nobody has forgotten how the Midwest guys stood their ground to preserve what they had worked for. That is incredible feat to accomplish in today's race to the bottom industry. But that does not excuse the few individuals that come on here and shoot their mouths off to the Republic guys. The way I see it, no matter how bad a hand you are dealt in your career, on these forums if you are gonna talk trash, you deserve it right back.

Finally, what is this nonsense you guys want to be single carrier status under RAH?!? That is suicide for your pilot group! I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but have you guys not paid attention to what happened to Midwest?!? You seem to know what happend, but it obviously is not registering that your group could and most likely will be in the same shoes as Midwest. If I am not mistaken, in just a few short years RAH is due to get C series aircraft that are just about the size of your Airbii correct? Now I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you should have a good idea who will be flying those aircraft if you are not on single carrier status...

i feel that my coment has been interpreted wrongly. I am looking foward to getting the SLI completed and also having the midwest, frontier, and lynx pilots all combining with the RAH pilots to help make Republic a better place to work at. I will not accept the attitude of some on this board that they are some how better than me because of what company they work for. I will also not accept countless attacks from people who have no idea what is going on in our company or blame any republic pilot for what has happend with midwest. None of us signed off on it just as none of the pilots were excited about getting 175's for usair as they were parking 737's. Hopefully this debacle will teach people that it is more important to negotiate a tight scope clause that doesnt come down to if the word "connect" is painted on the airplane or not. This new RAH airline hopefully will be the first airline where every pilot from the largest airplane to the smallest will be on one seniority list. However that list is comprised of it doesn't really matter. Any other result will be a trmendous mistake.

What a moron! F9er a bit arrogant are we.

Why don't you ask your fellow Frontier puke that was trying to jumpseat on my flight to NRT a few months ago on some simple questions we had for him.

You were bankrupt when you were bought!
Who the heck finance your bankruptcy? Why do you think the NWA/Delta folks are ticked of about this. It's our money that finance your company through RAH.

You signed an LOA to circumnavigate another Union's scope-RAH just to get out of bankruptcy. Pathetic Frontier folks.

You think you will fly those Airbus and bigger planes just because you signed that stinking LOA. What's RAH scope clause before you signed it?

Yeah, yup. Just like your frontier puke . . can't get a straight answer. You think your contract is better. It's nowhere close to us nor to the ones you wanted to buy you-SWA. And to compare your contract to RAH-its pathetic. They are a regional feed. You are a regional airline that just happens to fly an Airbus.

Circumnavigating another Union's scope clause just to get out of bankruptcy. . . the Delta and especially the NWA folks will never forget.

What tool you folks are.

I agree. We're all people here. Just because someone got into the industry earlier and is at a major doesn't make them better or smarter than any of us here. Every one started somewhere. We all have families, friends, and our lives we have to live. If I met Rat at a bar or he was my neighbor I'd probably like the guy but because of what this Airline that hired me did to him we are now enemies. Its so stupid and childish. Also just because we have a "union that can't negotiate and chew gum at the same time" doesn't mean that we all follow them blindly. I'm sick of how everyone thinks that just because I'm at CHQ that I somehow love our union and agree with what they do. There have been some positive changed happening with our own Local and such but I'm still not 100% happy with the way the IBT has been approaching things as of late either. Every group has every right to fight for what is theirs but don't hate on another pilot because he or she happens to be at a certain airline. Dislike a pilot because he or she is a moron or just not likable but to label all RAH pilots is stupid.

..........

This is not a fair statement. In fact, I have never heard anyone utter those statements.


The idea, I believe, was to get some improvements to the IBT CBA through amalgamation and then improve on those through the Section 6 negotiations.

What are you saying here Flex? More experienced flying an Airbus perhaps but not better or smarter...

I don't know why you guys don't get it. Your union is clueless and I don't see you doing anything about it but saying they are little better than thieves we used to have.

What the IBT is doing is only so the IBT can hang on as long as possible before they are removed. They aren't proceeding in the best interest of the pilots.

What would have been best for your pilots would have been to amalgamate the IBT and ALPA contract asap after the Midwest/Republic merger was announced. You would have been able to improve your contract and would have had pay rates for the 190. After the Frontier deal was announced then amalgamate the now IBT/ALPA contract with the FAPA contract. Two opportunities to improve your life NOW verses waiting to negotiate in section 6. After Amalgamations are finished now go to section 6.

What they are doing now makes no sense. If we get a final SLI ruling today it is useless because we have no direction on how to implement it. Lets say the Lynx's guys make out well and there is a need for pilots and a senior lynx guy can hold a 190 Captain slot. Who does he pay union dues to? Who's contract does he follow?

If you think the IBT is fighting for you, you are being a little naive. They are only fighting to get as many deposits of union dues as possible before they are thrown out. Best guess is they have cost you 9 months of better wages and some real work rules.

Elimination of Gene Sowell, bringing in Doug Turner, starting a new local with new bylaws. All of these are for the benefit of the pilot group as a whole.

How does this benefit the F9 pilots? They don't give a crap about your unions out of control clown car.

When was Doug brought in? Unless it was within the last few weeks, he obviously hasn't changed your poor course of action. New boss is same as the old boss. There is zero chance the IBT will be representing the pilots of Frontier/Lynx/Midwest/Republic in the future if it ends up being single carrier. They are starting in the hole of a minimum of 1100 votes from the start.

1) Republic announced Frontier before Midwest
2) Amalgamation of contracts has no set rules. The company can simply say no all day long.
3) There was also the inclusion of Lynx and Mokulele at the time who also were to be represented
4) At that point in time both Frontier and Midwest didn't want to integrate let alone amalgamate contracts.
5) Contract neg. was stopped for good reason. There was a lot going on and a lot of questions that needed answering. Each union found out the same way we did, though the news, and needed to make sure they had all of their ducks in a row before proceeding forward.
6) Without everyone on a single seniority list the amalgamation and negotiation of a new contract would just be a large flop. There's no airline with multiple pilot groups that have benefited from not being on the same seniority list. See Mesa/Freedom, GoJets/TSA. Past history dictates moving forward without being combined is extremely risky.

There's no benefit for Frontier to maintain separate. Everyone agreed to integration, to a timeline, to get it completed in a timely manner. You don't place your bets then try and pull it back off the table once the cards are being dealt.

F9 pilots aren't IBT they are FAPA. The you said the IBT hasn't been acting in the interest of it's pilot group. It has. Your reasons for seeing them as a failure, as pointed above, don't make sense.

I understand that is the idea, and it is flawed.

Do you think the company is going to just throw in our pay and work rules because we want them. Most of our scheduling section doesn't work with your CBA because you have PBS and we have hard lines. Duty and trip rigs, not gonna happen. Add/drop/swap, not gonna happen. They will cut and past the bus pay rates for the airbus flying and called it a amalgamated cba. End of story.

Meanwhile, you could be negotiating for all of the things that you currently do not have, but you are doing nothing instead.

The only way to guarantee that we do not have to work under the IBT CBA is to get rid of the IBT. Everyone remains status quo until the new CBA. We keep the CBA that we negotiated and fought tooth and nail to defend, and you keep exactly what you deserve. We elect a new union and start from scratch.

How's that 190 grievance going. Seems the ALPA guys got 2 major grievances completed in less than half the time your clowns have been able to get simple ruling on what is a seat.

You sir, are my newest hero. Finally a moment of clearity.

Have you tested your trip/duty regs against our current lines???? Do you realize that your trip/duty regs are so poor that it doesn't even apply to most of our current pairings??? Your beloved work rules are a joke. Because of the stunts you pulled before integration, and before you continue to sneak around damaging our combined future with the hopes of protecting yourselves, you have lost the respect of any professional pilot. Don't be surprised if you get that fence you want, then you wake up on the streets....you'll deserve it. (Ok..i regret saying that. I don't wish that on anyone, but YOU should be careful what you WISH for.)

Right, God has the time to spare to focus on which seat Frontier pilots occupy. While you're praying, throw in world peace too...let me know how it works out for ya! Maybe if we all pray really really hard, they'll get what they want!....What makes your FOs so special? Why do Frontier FOs get to decide who bids and gets awarded captain? RAH bought your company during your bankruptcy. Dozens of former airline have been down this path, why should you be treated any different? Why shouldn't a RAH pilot fly on the F9 certificate? You both work for the same company. What makes you so damn special?

All hale the mighty NW/DL B747-400 CA or is it E135 fo. He knows all and does not forget. You need to need a vacation dude, take a cruise or something. Easy with the "Scab" word.:rolleyes:

Well this is certainly a nice little lovefest in action. What are the current odds that this silly SLI will be a mirror of East vs West over at Airways?

Just a few thoughts here. I really hope some of these statements made on this board are by drunk keyboard commandos who are bored of looking at internet porn. If people really think like this on both sides of the table, we're in for a bumpy road.

Bottom line, we are all employees of a holding company run by crude tyrants with no respect for their frontline employees. They will play us against each other simply to erode pay. This union v union fighting only helps their cause. BB flat out stated he'd like to keep our lists separate. Why do you think that is? It sure as heck isn't to protect Frontier FOs seniority or chance at an airbus upgrade. The more we fight amongst ourselves, the less leverage we have against the company. A prolonged seniority battle has been in the RAH executive playbook from the start.

The SLI will be a painful process, but one we have to embrace quickly so that we can move on. I'm a RW FO, and pretty sure that I'll be royally screwed by the SLI. Will I be POd after it goes through? I'm expecting it. What I'm focused on however, is the long term issues at this new abomination of an airline. The sooner the SLI is complete, we can begin to form a unified front against management. Get angry at BB & WH, not at each other.

Originally Posted by ToiletDuck http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...s/viewpost.gif
1) Republic announced Frontier before Midwest who cares about announced, when was it final. Midwest July 30th, Frontier Oct 1.
2) Amalgamation of contracts has no set rules. The company can simply say no all day long. Not really. Look at dal/nw and ual/cal.
3) There was also the inclusion of Lynx and Mokulele at the time who also were to be represented
4) At that point in time both Frontier and Midwest didn't want to integrate let alone amalgamate contracts. Pure speculation by you.
5) Contract neg. was stopped for good reason. There was a lot going on and a lot of questions that needed answering. Each union found out the same way we did, though the news, and needed to make sure they had all of their ducks in a row before proceeding forward.
6) Without everyone on a single seniority list the amalgamation and negotiation of a new contract would just be a large flop See how dal/nw and ual/cal are doing it? There's no airline with multiple pilot groups that have benefited from not being on the same seniority list. See Mesa/Freedom, GoJets/TSA. Past history dictates moving forward without being combined is extremely risky. I'm not debating this. Just the way IBT has done this is backwords because a reasonable person would assume after a year of work on this SLI it would actually accomplish something. It doesn't. It's a list of numbers with no legal authority to do anything without a transition agreement that directs it's implementation. The only benefit of doing it this way is the IBT can hang on a little longer. If they would have done it via the method that dal/nw and cal/ual have used, the IBT would be gone by now.

There's no benefit for Frontier to maintain separate. Everyone agreed to integration, to a timeline, to get it completed in a timely manner. You don't place your bets then try and pull it back off the table once the cards are being dealt. Everyone agree to integrate the seniority list. Nothing more.



Interesting replies in red to ToiletDuck...sounds verbatim like the writings of a certain ALPA lawyer who uses a couple of folks to to his posting.

He forgets to mention that the merger of dal/nwa involved some screwing of the NWA pilots and a deal cut by the DAL MEC and ALPA that Prater denied he had signed...until a copy was handed to him.

Also forgets that there have been other mergers that have been royally screwed up...like NWA/Republic.

And that this merger involves three different unions. And they were smart enough to realize that it's better to get everything lined up before movng forward.

One things for sure. ALPA will love hitting you for more dues money. Don't expect much in return...ask the Midwest guys how much help Prater offered when he was up there for the rally when he promised to "change his zip code" ...he told them in a meeting they'd get nothing...because then ALL the little carriers would want the same help.

Regardless, expect him to be camped on your doorstep and your new "bestest" friend for the next three months. He's running for election again and is gonna start raiding every place he can, looking for votes.

And your money.

This is exactly what is wrong. You think getting this SLI ruling from the arbitrator accomplishes something. It doesn't. It only puts out a pretty list of numbers, names and DOH. Without an agreement by all parties on how it's going to be implemented, it is useless. Your union is doing a really good sale job on you all. Actually it's not because it really pretty simple but you guys seem to be pretty naive. Get your head out of the sand and realize they are using you. Get to a union meeting. Ask the questions. Why does ual/cal already have a transition agreement and you do not? Does the SLI allow us to be unified? Whose contract does a Midwest pilot follow? How about a lynx pilot? How about a F9 pilot flying a 190? Single carrier status? What are the safety measures that have been implemented to make sure your leadership isn't stealing from you? Why is your 190 grievance taking far longer than usual? It seems most of you are happy that your new leadership aren't crooks and they want to set up new bylaws. I can tell you that if the MEA leadership did any of this they would rather masturbate with a cheese grater while taking a bath in lemonade than face the MEA pilot group.

Not a fan of ALPA myself outside of their aeromedical department. So I assume you approve of the route the IBT has taken in this case.

So let me get this straight...Ichigo goes on a senseless rant and when nobody pays attention to him, he goes out and registers an entirely new identity (sticky) and refers to 'himself' as his 'new hero'. I have to agree with zoo here...please, please keep talking. For all you are doing, you might be my new hero.

Happily Mr. Zoo. What exactly is your cause?

Please elaborate on how I am an idiot too. Or is it the word you resort to when you don't like what someone else says? You know, like a child does.

I miss spoke and said "lines" instead of "parings". The last time I ran your work rules against our PAIRINGS, it applied to and prevented very few of our current PAIRINGS.

Do you wish to comment of any of the wonderfully valid points I made? Or do you wish to simply focus and point out typos?

I hope you keep talking as well, my research into pompous asses is almost complete.

Wait, I thought you were a 747 captain or is that under your ichi name?

Like a NW/DL B747-400 CA really even knows (or especially cares) that RAH/F9/MEH/Mokulele/Lynx are in SLI talks. You have to remember before you can forget!

Wrong

Like I told you earlier. There's not agreement because there's more than two entities and there was debate on if they'd be integrated. The company has to agree to amalgamation of contracts, which DAL/NWA and CAL/UAL have, but in our case there's video, which I've watched, of BB saying "We'll sell Frontier before we integrated them". Also there were four unions involved. All four would have had to come together to do this process.

There is no Midwest certificate. The Lynx operation is being wound down. The Midwest/Lynx guys will either end up on the Frontier or RAH codeshares and get paid based on the aircraft and position.

Once again you're paid based on what aircraft you fly. If you end up on the 190 you get 190 pay. *shocking*

There are measures being taken with the completion of the new local. More information on all that will be released in the future.

Ask the arbitrator

Wow! F9er and Zooropa, you two are just a gold mine of developed, strategic, and focused thought! No wonder this was so easy.

You two continue to ignore and my valid points cause you can't dream up a single rational thought. You are incapable because RIGHT always trumps WRONG. It has been entertaining however, seeing you choose to focus on whether or not I have a double personality on this silly board and which aircraft I operate!

Hey TolietDuck..I regret to inform you that your logical sense is of no use here.

My job here is complete.

I am confused. How can you lose in the SLI?