Pinnacle pilots - What are your reserve rules
 

Callout time?

Do you have access to the computer list to know if you are likely to get called or not?

Any details you can give me, I would greatly appreciate. Thanks.

It has been a long time since I have been on reserve, but I will give this a shot. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Reserves get 10 days off.

No computer list. You can ask to be first call or last call, but we have no way to tell whether or not they went in order.

No long call reserve.

Call out time is 90 minutes for home reserve.

Ready reserve, up to 9 hours a day, call out is to be at the gate pretty much as soon as possible. Ready reserve pays 3.75 hours per day and you do not get per diem.

When you are done with your last assignment on your last day, they have 3 options for you. Release you (good luck with that), reassign you, or hold you at the airport for an hour of reserve. At the end of the hour they have to release you or assign you a trip that leaves within 3 hours of your original in time.

Basically, reserves here are treated horribly. The TA we voted down in September was actually worse for reserves than current book. Apparently the next TA won't be much better, if at all. Sounds like there is a good chance reserve will STILL be 10 days off, and now they will be able to hold you at the airport for 3 hours (big improvement from the up to 12 hours of reserve from the TA).

I'm glad I don't work there, that is awful!

Call out on ready reserve is to return the call within 15 min; then be at the gate within 15 after that.

The only time when per diem is earned on ready reserve is if you are put onto a pairing (that begins calculation of your time away from base) during that duty period.

You can also be escalated to ready reserve while sitting on home reserve if Crew Tracking has "exhausted" all airport ready reserves for that shift. When you are escalated, they cannot make you sit past whatever shift the previous reserve was originally sitting. There is no further compensation for being escalated.

After reserve lines are published, reservists submit a reserve type request form indicating what type of reserve they prefer. Crew planning will generally honor this request based on seniority and scheduling effeciency.

Actually, there is NO PAY FOR READY RESERVE. Sure, it's 3.75 a day if you look at 75 hour guarantee, but it pays no more than a home reserve day you don't get used.....which are VERY few and far between. If you're at 76 hours for the month, and your last day of the month is RR, you get 76 hours. No more. I've actually had an instance where I was over guarantee for the month with a trip on my last day that would put me further over guarantee. They swapped me with the RR the next day who happened to be under guarantee. Normally, I'd say they weren't smart enough to figure that out, but someone was apparently paying attention that month. So, he flew the trip for no additional money out of the company's pocket, and I got a 9 hour airport appreciation sit for no extra money IN my pocket.

I'm desperately hoping for some sort of min day or trip/duty rig on the next TA as that's one of the big issues for me. Sitting at the airport for 9 hours is bad enough. Doing it for free (or at a loss since we don't even get per diem to cover the overpriced airport food) is a slap in the face. I can't think of any other regional that doesn't pay guys for sitting ready reserve.

I am on reserve here. There is no transparency, and it doesn't really matter because you will fly or do something every day anyway. Lots of ready reserve and you will sit for 6-7 hours and then get called. Lots of high speeds. Really not the most pleasant experience, but what reserve is, I guess.

Sweet Jesus!
This is in a contract?!!

Was just reading through the Spirit thread on their post-strike TA...what a contrast!

You guys really need to get released by the NMB!

Lets not sugar coat this one at all. our reserve rules are horrible. There are guys here that have sat it for three years plus, I don't know how they do it. You could sit ready reserve the whole month if they wanted you too. Pinnacle is a very senior happy junior not so happy airline right now, hopefully it changes with TA 2 when that eventually comes. As a senior line holder you can get anywhere from 19-21 days off a month. Junior guys get 11 and 10 and reserves get crapped on no doubt. Its something that has to be changed.

It's more like "The contract doesn't say we CAN'T do this, so we can" as far as scheduling is concerned. Even if it DOES say they can't, they'll try it and see if you catch it. Most of the reserves aren't even getting 10 days off. With the extensions (we get one refusal a month per the contract) and junior mans (no contractual refusals), you normally get reduced to 8 or 9 days off a month. You can refuse more than one extension or a junior man, but you got some splainin' to do with base management.

With the exception of today (sat for 8.5 hours and they didn't use me. I bugged them so many times they released me a 1/2 hour early), I normally sit RR for 6-7 hours then get called for a trip that ends 4 hours later. If you get a duty period of less than 11 hours, consider yourself lucky. Reserve will be on a reduced rest overnight while the rest of a crew is on a high speed. Why? They can add more flying to you when you get back to base if it's a reduced rest overnight. Now, if it's less than 9 hours rest, they can only use you for 12 hours. Pretty much every time I've had that happen, they use me for 11:55 or so. I had one where I was at 11:59 duty. Somewhere there was a scheduler dancing because it fit my schedule so perfectly.

You'll get DHed out of domicile to do flying, teased with a DH home, show up to the gate only to find out your reservation has been canceled and crew scheduling wants you to call them. Then you get the word you've got another out and back, and you'll DH home on the next flight. Rinse, repeat for two days. That was my weekend in DTW last weekend. I just pack for 5 days every time now just in case.

You'll fly a highspeed, followed by 10 hours of rest, a 2 day with a 18:55 show for a reduced rest overnight (legal since you just came off 10 hours rest), a 5 leg day, then another high speed. Reserves here call in fatigued way more than line holders, and management scratches their heads wondering why we're tired all the time.

The last TA that came out added one more option to the list posted above as to what they can do when you complete an assignement: back on reserve for 12 hours. That would have been the new default, but the TA (thankfully) got shot down. Word is, the new one is they can hold you at the airport for 3 hours instead of 1, but I also heard from a rep today that the min day may or may not make it through in negotiations. Now, if I fly one leg, and they hold me for 3 hours, I might be okay if I know I'm gonna credit 4 hours or the greater of flying assigned. If that goes away, and I sit at the airport for the same pay as the one leg I just flew, no thanks.

Ouch. Sorry you guys have to go through that stuff. That is rough.

Kellwolf it's freaky how close all that is to PSA's reserve. Given yours has some crap that we don't have to deal with. Just remember there is a special place in hell for schedulers who treat pilots this way, it's like they get a sick satisfaction from making your life miserable.

My god.............what a sweatshop.

Eagle's reserve rules leave this in the dust, but it goes to show that not all regionals are the same. More then likely, in a few years Eagle's will probabaly look like this...........in fact, most regionals will look like this if they want to keep their flying.

The race to the bottom (or top, if you're in management) has begun.

Seriously, holy crap that is a set of awful reserve rules.

Yeah the guys back in 1999 thought those rules were a good idea. 11 years later and we still have them.

That is SOOOO far below what we deal with here at Mesaba. That abuse wouldn't stand here. I have been on reserve just about 5 years here. I don't find it all that bad as long as you live in base, that is the key here. PBS has soured it a little with the loss of bidding into conflict to get an extra day off and the loss of build up reserve pay (the best paying lines in the old bid system) But all in all I don't really mind reserve most days/months. Putting up with Pinnacle reserve rules would have me bidding back to senior FO in a blink.

Reserve rules are a big part of the 5+ year negotiations process.

Under those rules it looks like I will hold on to my FO position until I can hold a good line as CA. Hmmmm, that might make my next upgrade chance at age 60 or so, awesome!!!!

Damn. Makes me wonder if Colgan would be better. The way they are hiring, Mesaba guys might be line holders after a couple months? ahhhhhhhh Don't want to commute though...

Decent rules coupled with a min day/duty rig would go a LOOOONG way here. You've got that over at XJ. I just wanna make sure the guys that take the recall offer from 9E from your side of the house know what they're in for.

This is a great point... There have been a bunch of resv FOs that have quit because its so bad with no end in sight.
XJ furloughs be aware this place is bad news.

I've talked to several guys and we think it's a nice step that we would get our longevity honored for pay at Pinnacle and colgan but we'd much rather have our contract honored. I would take either of your hourly rates with my contract before I'd take my hourly rate with your contract.... I guess I'm one of those guys that believes soft time/ contract provisions really are worth it. Not sure I can justify taking a paycut from my job now to be abused on reserve with no end in sight.

Agreed except for one point. Why not shoot for the best of both pay and work rules. None of the 3 airlines involved have such stellar contracts that compromises, subpar terms, and reductions should be even considered.


When it comes down to it, at a regional, your paycheck is going to suck. No matter what you negotiate your payrate to be, you'll still be getting paid less than you should and your takehome pay will be embarrassing (I'm not saying that its right though, its just how things are right now). So why not try to at least get a better quality of life and not feel like an indentured servant?

Agreed. I was referring to the offer for furloughed mesaba guys to be pref hired at pinnacle and colgan right now. They are going to allow the Mesaba guys to keep their longevity for pay rates. I'd rather keep the contract than the rates. But in the final hash out of the contracts I expect no less than Mesaba's current contract and an increase in pay rates. We shouldn't be giving things back and Pinnacle has fought a long time to have anything to give.

Pinnacle reserve sucks pure and simple. Typically you will work in some fashion every reserve day yet not break guarantee. Max work for min pay. Believe it or not the rejected TA proposed making reserve WORSE. Unfortunately we have a number of pilots who were hired on the leading edge of a big expansion and did little to no reserve so don't understand this. The bottomline is DO NOT COME TO PINNACLE! Many came here thinking it will get better and a good contract was "just around the corner". We have lots of guys getting divorces, getting foreclosed on or quitting and leaving the industry because they couldn't survive the Pinnacle "holding pattern" any longer. We have happy senior guys here that get good schedules and livable pay but most people here get the shaft. Quick upgrades are long gone and won't be back anytime soon.

As far as I know, you aren't actually keeping either. You are coming to Pinnacle as a Pinnacle pilot, which means working under our contract. Our contract has pay rates, which should be what you get paid. You are just keeping your longevity for figuring your new Pinnacle pay.

This sucks for you guys. No doubt about it. But please keep in mind that you are being offered the decision of whether or not to come over. No one is forcing you to do it. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people are in line behind you in case you say no.

Unfortunately "no one is forcing you to work here" is the cop-out for a lousy contract at Pinnacle. Not enough people want to fight. Having said that - staying away or quitting is the only way to improve things here. Until they can't hire anyone they will continue with their ways.

I'm sorry if it seems like I misunderstand, I don't. We would get 2nd year Pinnacle pay NOT 2nd year Mesaba pay, I understand that completely believe me. What I'm saying is, given the choice of keeping longevity for pay or keeping contract provisions I'd keep the contract 10 times out of ten. But I guess since you brought it up, I'd rather have Mesaba pay rates with your contract too. It's nice that they will let us have 2nd or 3rd year pay,that's 200% more than I would expect... but lets shoot for the moon here. As pilots we've done plenty of settling for good enough.

We ensured that there would be no penalty for bypass. We need pilots at 9E and the MEC's have made every effort and opportunity to get furloughs back to flying. What else would you like? The ALPA National "one list" camp has worked for decades for portable longevity and this is the first time it has ever come about into something to get guys back into a cockpit without hurting any pilot's current seat/seniority/pay/benefits. What will unfold is still speculation, but this entire MOU is being worked to keep the pilots that are now our brothers and sisters in mind. The company is going to have to hire either way and would get the luxury of filling classes on an 11 year old contract at first year pay... Instead they will pay you for time worked before you were under the "umbrella". If you don't want to come here, fine, but please don't start the "moon routine" when guys are fighting the flak to get you aboard when times are rough.

We get that "if we don't want to come here, fine". But the fact is that some of us are facing the fact that if we don't "come here" we'll be shipped off to the East Coast as a Mesaba recall when/if that does come around. Believe me, I'd love to wait around for a Mesaba recall if it meant keeping a Mesaba base but unfortunatly that's probably not going to be the way it works. And don't get me wrong, I honestly think that Pinnacle buying Mesaba was a good deal. We all know that Delta wasn't trying to hide the fact that they had nothing but kicks to throw at us and Pinnacle Holdings offers the opportunity to maybe keep the Saabs and some add'l flying, but with that will most likely come transfers to random 2-3 leg commute bases that non of us had anticipated. Especially those that volunteered to leave to save someone else's job because they could afford to do so and would come back in a year when things got a little better. So I apologize if we all sound like bunch of whiny babies, it's a lot to take in in such a short time and now we're just trying to weed though all of the information and stressing over what the best option to take would be.

+1 to almost all of C152's post
Higney- I guess I'm not clear enough, I am SUPER thankful for the opportunity. I am IMPRESSED that a)the unions are this organized and b) the company almost looks like it might be looking at something other than the bottom dollar.

Let me extend you a personal thank you because I know you're a Pinnacle rep.

That said, most of the furloughs knew that there wasn't a recall forthcoming. This has thrown a wrench in our plans. Maybe it's a good wrench,the jury is still out. The first 60 will be given the choice of going to pinnacle and the next 90 will only be able to go to colgan. Pinnacle offers us the ability to bid our former bases which is awesome, however we'll be on reserve and to be honest it sounds like your reserve sucks. Colgan will hire more, so some guys might be line holders but their work rules are very poor so perhaps that's not really better.

The choice we face is tied up in the seniority integration, if it goes the way many previous mergers have gone, furloughs generally get stapled. The thought process being, "these guys didn't have jobs anyway, so what do they care about being stapled to the bottom" or some version there of. This offer is very well thought out because it reduces the number of true new hires and thus the number that would be affected by whatever the final decision is on SLI. The issue is, we're faced with returning to one of the companies now in an attempt to preserve our seniority or risking getting stapled and losing what little seniority we might have.

Obviously there is a lot to contemplate for a lot of people. I guess the issue is maybe we shouldn't be trying to discuss the merit of the offer in mixed company.

I ,for one, appreciate the show of solidarity by the pinnacle and colgan pilot groups. I just have no idea what my answer will be when the time comes.

In the mean time, I hope you get a TA soon and that it's worthy of the time you've waited for it.

First- the seniority integration won't matter whether you take the employment opportunity or not. I say that, but an integration process hasn't been developed yet so the only aspect that could change by coming is longevity. All that aside there is the ability to bypass and the offer for 60 will extend to all furloughs, just the first 60 in seniority that want it will get it. 9E is still working on a contract and reserve was a huge issue in the failed TA1. I will never try and forecast a TA but at this point the company cannot bring airframes over without seniority worked out, and the company has wanted dual qual; this purchase by the holding company makes that abundantly clear as to why.

Higney, at this point it's all speculation. I'm aware we can bypass and keep our mesaba seniority, I'm just keenly aware that if we bypass we may damage our final seniority.

Lets say we go to pinnacle and get a pinnacle seniority number of 1160 as one of the first called (example number only) in the mean time pinnacle hires 60 so the final number on pinnacles list is 1220. (still just an example) The SLI is completed and furloughed pilots are stapled from 1220 on down. If we had taken a job when pinnacle was hiring we would have a pinnacle number above what our Mesaba number would have been.

For clarity lets say there's a pilot Bob. Pinnacle Bob gets 1160 but Pinnacle Bobs Mesaba seniority gets stapled at 1221. So now Pinnacle Bob has essentially two numbers on the list, one which is because he took a job at Pinnacle and one that represents his original seniority. If it's only Pinnacle list you are considering maybe he only lost 60 numbers, if the Mesaba furloughs are stapled below all active pilots on both other lists then you stand to lose 150 numbers by defering a recall. I really don't believe if a guy has a Pinnacle number they are going to force him back to his Mesaba number, but if he doesn't have a Pinnacle number then I guess they wouldn't be changing anything.

I know that seems like a really convoluted example but it didn't seem like you understand the choice furloughs may be facing.

You are more than welcome to say it won't go that way, and I sincerely hope you are correct but it would be nothing more than speculation and it's a calculated risk.

A large portion of Mesaba's furloughs are already twice furloughed so we're not spring chicken for how things can work out. Airlines can say whatever they please about whatever they please and you won't know the truth until it actually happens.

Which is why in the end, it all comes down to wait and see.

For the record, I hope I'm wrong about all of this and I'll be nothing but pleasantly surprised by the final outcome. I was pleasantly surprised by the concept of actually rehiring the furloughs instead of off the street regardless of what my personal decision in that matter might one day be.

For any sli issues the MOU is designed to use the XJ original list regardless of a pilot taking the employment opportunity.

Isn't that everything in this industry?

According to what I have been reading from the union, the XJ furloughs that take a recall will still be integrated based on their original XJ seniority no matter how long they put in at another place. You will not get credit for ANY time served away from XJ for purposes of integration. So wether you stay or recall you will be integrated exactly the same, so they say now.

If that's the case there's less of an issue. The guys that don't currently have jobs will go and the guys that have found other things won't and our seniority will shake out the same.

My problem is in the airlines there is a LOT promises about how things will go but the truth is you can't believe it until you see it. Or are those 15 900's still coming ? :(

True, but it's at all levels. Senior Delta guys thought they'd still have an okay retirement 10 years ago. You never know if you've made the right choice in this industry until you're in the ground. It used to be until you retire, but even that's a crap shoot now.....

So where does Pinnacle put you up at for training??

At the Homestead Suites right down the road from Corporate Headquarters in Memphis. We haven't had a new hire class since '08, so this may have changed. The Colgan folks are allegedly put up in another hotel in downtown Memphis.

If it is the Homestead, this place is a dump. We had a roach problem in our room. You will also hear stories of professional women soliciting services by knocking door-to-door. Then there's the story of the dead pimp.

"Breakfast" in the "crew lounge" consisted of a variety of cold muffins, sticky pastries, bruised mushy fruit, juice, and coffee.

There are washing machines and dryers.

There is a fitness center across the street from the hotel. The front desk at the hotel will give you a free pass to use.

Your sim partner will be your roomie. If you want to room and do the sim with someone you know, let the front desk know upon check in.

If you are bringing a vehicle, keep an eye out. A classmate had his SUV broken into and a GPS stolen. The hotel is located in a corporate office subdivision area. The surrounding neighborhood is not very safe. I would not recommend attempting to walk anywhere (there's nothing really around anyways).

The hotel van driver will take you to/from the airport, Corporate Education Center (CEC)/headquarters, and FlightSafety. If they are not busy, they will also take you to a Super Wal-Mart about 10 min away or as far as Beale Street.

Also note: if you require a pick-up at the airport, the hotel shuttle (which was a plain white van with no markings) will pick you up on the UPPER DEPARTURE LEVEL. When I arrived, I sat outside the lower baggage claim level for 45 min waiting for the van to arrive when finally I asked the front desk to clarify the location to be picked up. Silly me to just assume that I'd be picked up under the sign that said "Ground Transportation - HOTELS".

That Homestead sounds actually a tiny bit worse than the one Mesaba used in Minny, Thankfully our hotel comittee got it banned from use. We now stay either at the towne place or staybridge suites off I-35.