Mesaba Flow?
 

Any news from the meeting with Delta yesterday?

just the crickets is all we have heard. Which I hope is a good sign. The company may not of shown up and said "it's dead in the water have a good life" I think they are still talking which is better than nothing.

Good news is first flow award came out Monday. So our first 9 pilots have received class dates. Now the hope is that we can keep it going.

What class date did they get?

Im going to say somthing here that i hope does not create a controversy. I am flighting to make sure that this aquisition of mesaba is fair for all of our pilots but i especially don't want mesaba pilots to get screwed because of this. I don't want any MOA or anything, I just want a straight up 1 for 1 integration. If mesaba is allowed to keep the flow however, I would like to work at Delta as well and I currently am trying to market myself and network to try to get it, but I would hope that the flow would be extended to those of us that want to work there as well if we are all on the same list. If not thats going to create some tension for sure - and what happens if there is a flow back if only half of the pilots on the list can flow up? And also what happens when mesaba is not a delta connection carrier anymore when the saabs are gone and mesaba is left flying for united, usair and continental.
Just some food for thought, i hope that the flow stays in tact, i just want to be a part of it if it does.

I think the only way mesaba will keep the flow will be for pinnacle to get the flow for all of us here after integration is complete. I don't want to have a flow for a couple reasons. 1) I will most likely never benefit from it. 2) It could hurt the chances of us getting hired at Delta before we reach the top of our list. 3) It decreases our job security by trading it for a junior mainline guy.

I think persuing a flow is not a good idea and I hope we just keep the "preferential hiring" instead.

you bring up valid points, i guess my point is is that i want everyone to be on the same page. We either all get it or we all dont get it. I want what is best for all of us and the number 1 priority is a new working agreement that is acceptable, then a fair integration, then the flow.

8/16/10 for seniority but they wont attend class until November.

Yeah I just do see any way that the flow will be able to stay in place much longer. I am glad a few people got to move up but once the transition is done it will not make sense to have the flow anymore. Mesaba and Colgan are merging. Colgan doesn't even fly for Delta. What happens if people have to flow back. There is nothing in our pinnacle contract that allows that so they cant flow here. And I am sure they wont be allowed to flow to colgan/mesaba since they wont even be flying for delta anymore if they go there. It will be easier for the flow to end then to keep it going.

Yes but it is a little more complicated than that. It isn't all about you/me/us. There are Delta scope implications. I'm sure Delta wants it gone and yes it might be difficult and confusing for you and your company to work out. However I do not think the Delta pilots are going to give up a negotiated benefit that helps to prevent furloughs of their pilots for the sole reason that it is easier for your company. In the end it is a Delta and Delta MEC issue, you and your company have very little (if any) say in the issue at this point in time.

The Mesaba flow has very little scope implications. It will end. The Compass flow is a little more complicated. The fact that DALPA and Delta are negotiating tells me it will end too. If not, there would be no negotiating.

No not entirely true. 8 people got held back until November 2010 but they all received DAL seniority numbers. 1 Saab CA received August 16 class date. So in effect 9 Mesaba pilots flowed up.

I agree with you. If flowthru continues, Pinnacle pilots and Mesaba pilots should integrate immediately 1 for 1 based on seniority percentage and allow Pinnacle pilots to flowup as well. But I think what will happen is flowthru will end at the end of 2010 for everyone at Mesaba. Compass pilots, I am not sure but their flowthru I heard at the Mesaba HQ is that it will also end if it hasn't begun yet. That's why Compass was sold so cheap to TSA. This is what I heard from upstairs but not confirmed 100%.

Great post...

Many Pinnacle pilots would be much more supportive of a 1 for 1 percentage merge (and doing away with the 2 for 1 LOA) if we got something out of it like a flowthrough...

Unfortunately from everything I've seen coming from Corp., it still seems like they're going to try to asset transfer jets and staff with "preferential" new hires on year 1 9E seniority...

The only fact we know right now is that Mesaba and Colgan's certificates are mergine, and Mesaba and Colgan's lists will have to be merged b/c of that.

If the "new XJ" then integrates with 9E at a later date, you'll have Colgan senior pilots who might end up flowing before a 9E guy...

Another issue--what happens if we ever get a contract and get our long-awaited bonus checks? If our MEC trys to do a W2-based method again, you're going to have XJ pilots getting XJ longevity on 9E payscales...if we merge, you could set up for a situation where XJ pilots axe any TA that solely gives bonus money to 9E pilots....

What a CF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pure speculation at this point as there are no hard facts. If that were to happen get ready for some fireworks.....

Its not speculation. It is what they WANT to do. Management wont care about all the fireworks or a ****ed off pilot group. The more people they get to quit on the mesaba certificate the less trouble it will be to get rid of that good contract and get everyone on a colgan/pinnacle contract. They are probably hoping the senior pilots will retire or quit. Now whether or not the mec's can stop them or work out a deal is another story. They have said more times than I can count that colgan and mesaba would merger and that alpa merger policy would dictate how that would happen. In the same sentence they say that pinnacle and mesaba will not merge. The jets moving over are going to be an asset transfer, nothing more. They think they are doing all the mesaba guys a favor by letting them come here as new hires but keep their longevity. Also allowing them to keep their seniorty for sli integration is not sli integration with pinnacle but with colgan. All they are doing is getting people off the mesaba conract and getting them on the pinnacle contract.

In fact the company wanted to take planes from us and move them to mesaba on a temporary basis to cover flying while the new hires are being trained. There would be nothing we could do about it if they did. Just like there is nothing mesaba can do if corp moves the planes to pinnacle. Unfortunately this is how the company wants this to go down and it will if they get their way. The only way it wont is if the MECs can get together and come up with a legal standing to force the company to merge us all.

Can you provide a source as to Mesaba pilots being offered year one seniority? We know the planes/assests are going to be transferred but I have not seen or heard anything official concerning seniority transfer or lack there of.

Wow this is turning into FI.com real quick. No facts, pure bs rumors that guys concoct on the line. Come one guys, 9E can't break the XJ contract and start them at year one. It's illegal. The company and the all the MEC's will be meeting soon. You will get your answers soon. All this spectulation is just that, pure speculation.

Give it a break

Our MEC agreed to hire the mesaba furloughs and allow them to come over here as seniority based new hires. For pay and benefits their longevity is going to be based on their longevity at mesaba prior to furlough. However when it comes to bidding and schedules they will all be treated as new hires. So if they had 2 years at mesaba they come over here as 2nd year pay on the pinnacle contract but as new hires as far as seniority.


Dont you guys get the same FAQ's that we get? What I posted is almost word for word what our company has stated in calls and in the memos they have posted. Im not starting anything. I am simply repeating what the company is saying. I am not making this stuff up.

I believe the post I was referring to initially was implying the pilots transferring with the jets would go back to year one seniority. We all understand the furlough situation and how that's being handled seniority wise, the past couple of posts were a little misleading.

Furloughed Mesaba pilots still retain their original seniority at Mesaba while employed at 9E or 9L. This will be used for future seniority integration. Read your union updates, it's all listed there.

"Who moves and how they move will be subject to negotiation with ALPA, and ALPA also will determine how these pilots will be integrated into Pinnacle’s seniority list. Management does not do that."
Here's from our FAQ. Note it doesn't say integrating at year one/new hire. It specifically states that this is a union matter. Even the company knows this.

Anyone else here who has questions either email/phone your rep or wait for the ACTUAL meetings between the Union/Company to commence and then find out the true facts.

The company hasn't told anyone what they want yet. It's all speculation until the end of the month.

I agree with what you are saying. It is really just semantics. Pinnacle Corp. is calling it an asset transfer. The XJ contract just says that they must offer jobs to the pilots when the planes are transfered. A merger would require an equitable list merger. I don't think this is new news. Whether it can be legally pulled off or not is the next question.

Seniority for XJ furloughs will not change on the MESABA list. On the pinnacle list they are at the bottom as if they are new hires. Only difference is they get credit for time worked at XJ for pay and benefits. They will be junior to every current 9E pilot in every way. In the event of an SLI their seniority number at XJ would be used for integration.

Yes, but read section 1 of the contract, subsection D Transfer of Company Aircraft and subsection E Merger Protections. This is what AirSupport was getting at. They do not have to do anything but offer you a job at Pinnacle in an "Asset Transfer." Those are the words management has been using, aren't they?

Who moves and how they move will be subject to negotiation with ALPA, and ALPA also will determine how these pilots will be integrated into Pinnacle’s seniority list. Management does not do that.

JayRay, what part of the above statement, don't you understand???? As I said before call/email you rep. The speculation on here is not reality.

Okay, I understand your statement. However, reread the contract and you will see our contract offers us no protection in the case of an asset transfer. Also, reread the statements from management and read between the lines. They are not going to just say, yeah, you all do it however you want. One list, two lists, whatever you all, the pilot group, want is fine with us. We will pay all the retraining fees, so you guys/gals just figure out how you want to do it. No way. Of course this is all speculation, the truth won't come out until it is all over and done with. Isn't that why we come on here, to speculate?

This situation is covered under the contract. You can call it an asset transfer or anything else, it is still covered under Section 1.E.1. It is not a merger, but the second line triggers it. The company was sold to another airline and it affect the seniority rights of Mesaba Pilots. Under that section, it provides that seniority lists must be merged in a fair and equitable manner.

I think everyone is confused and people are talking about multiple things. The Mesaba furloughs being hired retain their longevity but for schedule bidding purposes, they will be new hires. They will however keep their Mesaba seniority number so when ever things get hashed out, they could be more senior at Pinnacle after the SLI occurs.

Second, anyone who things a 15 years captain coming with the 900s to Pinnacle and will be forced to be the most junior pilot is ridiculous. That is where the fair and equitable language gets triggered.

Outstanding post. You clarified the rampant confusion shown by some here. You have accurately summarized the situation we are all in right now. People are confusing furloughed Mesaba guys being given preferential hiring at Colgan and at Pinnacle with the main issue of merger of the entire Mesaba and Pinnacle pilot seniority list that is bound to happen in the future.

The seniority integration of XJ and 9E pilots will happen for sure, in my opinion. What Pinnacle and Mesaba pilots needs to ensure is that Pinnacle adopts Mesaba work rules/benefits and payrate going forward and cherry pick good ones from each airline. I suspect Colgan will operate as Mesaba and for awhile Pinnacle Corporation will have 2 separate operating certificates, one for combined Pinnacle/Mesaba and another for Colgan that changes its name to Mesaba with furloughed Mesaba guys there.

Additionally, I am all for giving Flowthru rights to ALL Pinnacle pilots. Since Pinnacle owns Mesaba now and as Mesaba currently has the flowthru agreement, it is only fair and equitable that all Pinnacle pilots should be given the flowthru rights like Mesaba pilots.

There is a dollar sign attached to everything in that contract, including the flow thru. 9E pilots did not have to pay that price, and therefore should not be included in it. Would it be a nice gesture? Of course, but is it fair and equitable, absolutely not. Not trying to be a jerk, but that is the reality of the situation.

Wait. What? What did the XJ guys give up to get a flow through? If it's a flow down, then I would just expect that to go with the rest. In "not trying to be a jerk," you really are sounding like a "I got mine, but I'm not sharing" guy. To my knowledge, the flow was negotiated between DAL and XJ MECs, and the terms had guys flowing up and flowing down. What other "price" was paid?

Funny how half the posts never include Colgan in the talks about merger/flow thru/contract. It's all jockeying for positions between Pinnacle and Mesaba. This must be a fair merger between three pilot groups. Let's not forget that!!

Back to the original premise of this thread. We haven't heard any news from the company or union as to the future of the flow thru. A second "Flow-thru bid notice" came out on July 23rd and will be awarded August 10th. I haven't moved 18 numbers in 2 years let alone 2 months. I hope it keeps going as long as possible.

Agreed. I don't think Colgan has popped up in this thread simply because they aren't a DCI carrier. Which tosses ANOTHER wrench into the issue.....

with one list one contract, Colgan is the wild card in this situation. Pinnacle and Mesaba seniority lists are likely mirrored and would be fairly status quo. I'm waiting to see what equitable agreement can be reached with one seniority list when you include a relatively junior Colgan group.

I know Mesaba's most senior pilots are probably more senior than Colgan's senior pilots, but isn't at least half their group as junior as the junior guys at Colgan? Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember something like they more than doubled in size starting 2007-ish when they got all those CRJs. That would make about the bottom half of the list '07 hires and beyond, is it?

Most junior CA according to APC (excusing street CAs)
PNCL Oct 06
Colgan Feb 07
Masaba Jun 07

If there is any significant fence, I doubt the middle and bottom third of each group we see much of a change.

Now, the top thirds ..... that could be a different story.

It was a good deal. NWA could only flow down as many Mesaba guys that flowed up. No one could be pushed further down the list than the seniority they gained from the flow. If Delta furloughs right now, about 15 Delta guys can flow down to Mesaba.

If you feel that way, start pushing your MEC to end it. I'm sure DALPA will happily oblige.

The only thing that was given up for the flow was the ability for XJ pilots to be hired at Northwest. For the short time the flow was working in 2008, Northwest would not even look at an XJ pilot. I would consider that to be giving up something.

As for pay, nope nothing. Pinnacle had every opportunity to attempt to get into a flow agreement if they wanted to.......i guess no one stepped up to get it done.

Actually, that WAS being worked on loosely after the Delta/NWA merger. However, Pinnacle isn't (and wasn't) wholly owned. Compass and XJ were the only wholly owned NWA regionals. I suspect that if 9E WERE wholly owned, we wouldn't even be talking about this.