Time ALPA to put up or shut up! (Comair)
 

There are rumors floating around that CMR may be headed towards even worse days. I don't know if they are true, but the tea leaves don't look good. If we are a true union, it is time to start acting like one.

CMR has had a target on it's back since the strike in 2001. Despite what the ALPA cheerleaders say, it wasn't really a success. 89 days after the strike started, the final agreement wasn't much more than the "last, best, final agreement" prior to the strike.

During the strike, ASA flew CMR airplanes. During the strike, ALPA carriers DAL, ACA, and ASA flew CMR passengers through different hubs.

After the strike, CMR flying has been parted out to other ALPA DCI carriers.

It is time for the ALPA chest thumpers and cheerleaders to put up or shut up....I intend to bring a resolution to the floor of the next 112 LEC meeting to ask that current CMR pilots be given priority hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH for bidding purposes.

Either we are one together or we aren't...A national seniority list may not be possible, but this certainly is.

Rez...PCL128....Nevets...Will you support this or won't you?

Don't ask people to fall on their swords "for the profession" if you aren't willing to back them up.

I'm looking for people who will bring similar resolutions to the floor of their respective LECs. This is the time to decide if we really are a "brotherhood".

Stay tuned for more....

Email address has been established:

[email protected]

This IS NOT a decertification effort. I am looking for people to support LEC resolutions to give CMR pilots preferential hiring WITH THEIR CMR DOH.
__________________

Keep dreaming. Even the Mesaba pilots that just got "hired" (transfered) at 9E didn't get to take DOH for bidding. Even though they now work for effectively the same company.

Didn't know that Comair was selling tickets under their own code. I thought that all the passengers were Delta passengers. As far as flying struck work, that didn't happen.

While admirable, even Don Quiotxe would agree that it probably won't work. Are you pushing for this at ASA only, or nationally with any ALPA carrier?

More than likely, you would see the splintering of ALPA into numerous in-house unions if this actually gained traction.

It's a shame Delta didn't just decide it was easier and cheaper to fly the passengers themselves, since the passengers did buy Delta tickets. If regional airlines had to fly under thier own paint I'm sure passengers would be asking more questions about who is actually flying the aircraft.

I support this 110%! A couple of years ago when DAL tried to get rid of Mesa and XJT was ramping up their flying with DAL as a new DCI carrier, I had a conversation with our MEC chairman and he was in total agreement that if XJT got any of their aircraft we would try to convince management to take a commensurate amount of pilots onto the XJT list with seniority in return for basically having a turnkey operation. This is the whole thrust of the ALPA Fee For Departure Task Force - career progression protection.

Well, there WAS that old joke; "The only reason DAL exists in CVG is to feed COMAIR"

And for those that ACTUALLY flew in and out of CVG at the height of COMAIR's operation there can understand it.

Just so I'm clear..

You're saying that DAL flew struck work....

tell me where I'm wrong here. Beyond the fact that the flying belonged to DAL in the first place....okay, we'll forget that. You're now telling me that the picket line that I walked in MCO with the ComAir guys and gals in 2001, The line that I walked, even in my own furlough, is being thrown in my face.

[edit:delete]

Just curious, but who were you on furlough from in the summer of 2001? I don't remember DAL furloughing till AFTER 9/11.

With who???

On who's seniority list??

If ever the young ComAir guys wonder why there is animosity between ComAir and DAL, ...you should stand up and raise your hand.

I've been trying, on a personal level, to give the ComAir guys the benefit of the doubt. With this post, Joe...I'm done. Anything I can do to keep any ComAir guys out, I'll do.

You do know that Joe doesn't work for Comair?

Yep, mistake. As a DAL new-hire in Jan of 2001, I walked the line with the ComAir folks during the summer of 2001 in MCO. Many days. Got furloughed on Oct 31 2001 from DAL.

Better?

Never again.

He talked about filing a motion on behalf of the CMR pilots. What should I assume?

Every time you see a management/hr/office type at a regional airline, their salaries are paid exclusively through the wage concessions extracted from regional pilots. And theres a lot of them.

So what you are saying is that you would punish the good dudes at Comair for this guys comments on a public forum? Not sure if he is a Comair guy or not...and i don`t really care, but one bad apple does not ruin the rest of the crop.

If this dude does not work for Comair this post should be deleted for flamebait moderator.

In this business it's every pilot group for themselves and within each pilot group, its every pilot for himself. Unity within the profession as a whole is a mythical concept only and ALPA is simply a DIR (Dues Income Receiver) trying to hang on to every income dime it can.

ALPA stood by while other carriers like TWA and Midwest were devoured in the depths below them and left for dead, so you can forget ALPA "putting up" anything for (i.e., saving) any carrier with the possible exceptions of UAL or DAL because the loss of one of those would basically bankrupt them, thus devestating the upper elite's wealthy lifestyles. If the forces that be decide Comair is toast, plan your next career move, because you are basically all alone. Geez..........reading a lot of these posts, one can see Comair's blood is already attracting sharks hungry for a bite at the carcass.

RIP Comair and welcome to the abyss. As time marches on, more of the sharks will devour their like and dispatch them to join the previous carcasses, while the great whites of herndon circle above clear of the melee and fatter then ever from the scraps that rise from what they could or would not stop.

Ah, to be a modern day airline pilot....................

Joe Merchant works for ASA.

God forbid one ALPA DCI pilot offer a resolution in support of another ALPA DCI pilot...

I understand the animosity the RJDC caused with Delta pilots...but since that shiat is long since over and done with can pilots stop the childish, exclusionary high school antics and start acting like the professionals they so readily claim to be?

Joe is an ASA pilot not a CMR pilot.

There are over 400 of us that work here now that were not around when all that garbage went down.

It's not likely to go anywhere in this case but the general gist of the idea is worth discussing.

The only way we are going to get a virtual DCI list is to agree on it BEFORE something bad happens, or is imminent...I don't think anyone would be willing to enter into a reciprocal deal with CA right now, there's way too much smoke over there even if the flames aren't visible yet.

Perhaps a DCI one list agreement which would go into effect in 3-4 years? That's far enough over the airline event horizon that nobody could predict who would need the insurance the. It's too late to buy insurance when your house is on fire.

Why not have this for Midwest guys or does this only apply to Comair pilots? Plus if SkyWest does buy Comair assets like the rumor states, what is binding if the ac just go to SkyWest and fly under ual colors? What about those that fly under multiple airlines? I can understand pref hiring but if it's not a merger why should a lifer benefit at another company while making qol for those junior already here suffer? If it's a full blown merger like asa/xjt a pilot integration list is a must but that's not what we are talking about.
I understand the unity but regardless of the good will it would be another slap in the face of the junior pilots and the qol they earned at their airline.

JoeMerchant..great idea, and thanks from all us @ OH. Not that long ago, OH was in the cat-bird seat...if you think you're safe at an airline, you're a fool. If circumatances were reversed, although it would suck for me, I would strongly support ASA pilots' seniority.
"We must all hang together, or we will surely hang seperately"

Jayray5150 seems to be caught up in the minutiae, and since this isn't your 1st "airline rodeo", I'm guessing you are one of the few @DAL who came up through the regionals instead of squadron life. If you've been a regional pilot, you know what it's like...Joe was merely showing solidarity, a trait sorely lacking among pilots.

As far as Mesaba, hopefully they'll eventually get an SLI.

It's true, if it's not UAL or DAL, we will probably be left to our own devices. ALPA couldn't even come up with furlough mitigation practices @ OH when XJT and FedEx were able to, (not knocking the guys @ local level..we have a great furlough coordinator) ALPA national has left too many guys twisting in the wind to believe they'll help. (A ray of hope in the Spirit strike...but that's an anomaly.)

If you guys think ALPA is going to do anything to help regional pilots you are sorely mistaken.

They couldn't care less. It sucks, but its the truth.

They've stood there and watched us get to where we are today (in the ****ter); why would they decide to do something now?

As a super junior guy at OH, I would just be satisfied if the DAL south guys would make eye contact with us in the terminal.

It gets frustrating working hard to get Delta guys on the jumpseat only to have them pretend to not know us once we get in the terminal.

Also, some of us want to be (gasp) Delta pilots one day. I understand about the bad blood between the two groups, but please don't lump a 2005 or later hire and assume we had anything to do with what happened before we came on property.

I agree... there are several of us at CMR that were not around during the DAL/CMR fist fight. In fact many of those that were at the time disagreed with things that were being done.

That said we do need to figure out a way to protect ourselves and our careers. I don't think Joe's answer is the proper one. Seems like just another way for Mgmt to screw people over once labor cost at one airline are "too high".

The whole attitude of any pilot that looks down upon Comair pilots because they struck as a union to get a fair contract drives me nuts.

Any pilot in a position where they are in negotiations and a Federal mediator says, yeah you have every reason to strike, would do so. You wouldn't look around and say "hmmmmm.........I sure hope this doesn't affect anyone else's life if I go on strike".

I have met many mainline pilots that felt if they struck at their airline it would have been acceptable. So it's kind of a double standard to label Comair pilots for doing what every pilot would like to do to their management. Show them how important of a role they play in everyday operations. And even more important on holidays.

I wasn't around back then. But the feeling I get is that the reason mainline pilots dislike comair has more to do with the things the MEC said when they were furloughing. He was very arrogant and didn't want to lend a helping hand to DAL furloughs.

True. From what I understand before I got furloughed from Comair is the anger towards the OH pilot group has to do with the MEC's refusal to take furloughed Delta pilots without first resigning their Delta seniority number. In addition to that, the RJDC was in full swing... and we all know that wasn't helping anything.

I'm saddened that those affected would just write off all Comair pilots because of this. Many of us have been hired post 2001, as for me, I was only 16 years old when the strike and Delta furlough occurred. Had I been around during that time, I would have absolutely voiced my disapproval toward the total lack of compassion and disregard for furloughed Delta brothers and sisters. I would just like everyone to know that the decisions made by a certain past MEC does NOT reflect the opinions of everyone currently working there or furloughed from there.

Edtied, Diver Driver is a minute ahead of me as well as the addition of Spirit;

This more correct regarding the animosity. Couple that with the whole RJDC issue.

ANY pilot that expresses ill will towards COMAIR for the strike needs to have their head examined. Because sadly, excluding the ACMI/non-sched strikes, those little "regional" pilots are ONLY ones to stand up an walk for better pay/workrules since NW and before Spirit. Of course, after being in compliance with the RLA. What happened to those pay/workrules during the BK's is history. None the less, doesn't change the fact.

No pilot that I have ever spoken to is "mad" at the Comair pilots due to their strike. In fact we admired their fortitude, and in fact every Delta flight I flew during the entire strike I ensured was not in any way a sort of extra section or upgrade of equipment so as to somehow give mgmt a tool to lessen the strike's impact. We even had a booklet printed and issued by our Strike Committee detailing the steps we should take to review such flying.

However, how do you expect DAL pilots to feel when:

a. The Comair MEC unilaterally petitions ALPA national to get on our seniority list (and at least some assumed that their Comair DOH would transfer over, giving an RJ captain an instant 767 left seat).

b. The Comair MEC leadership explicitly rejected the idea of furloughed DAL pilots flying for Comair at the bottom of the seniority list unless they resigned their DAL seniority.

c. Comair pilots were leading proponents of RJDC nonsense.

d. Now "Joe Merchant" STILL thinks that a Comair pilot should get hired at DAL with his Comair DOH used for "bidding purposes"?....

And ya'll wonder?

I kind of hear what you are saying. However I have to play the devil's advocate on this one. What did Delta mainline pilots do for Comair pilots when they were furloughed? Did they offer some sort of helping hand in giving them a job as a mainline pilot? Please don't take that the wrong way but this is a discussion board and I think it's worth discussing.

No I do not work for Comair but I hear some of my fellow pilots saying things that make me wonder. Some of these guys should have no beef with Comair pilots but it seems as if some guys just want to hate like others.

This is not directed at you HerkFlyr.

We don't really wonder;

a. Our MEC doesn't have the power to unilaterally force Comair to uphold our own contract, much less force Anderson and Moak into a merger. Besides, our guys senior enough to hold Capt. 767 are just senile enough you could tell them they've been promoted to Commodore, give 'em solid epaulets and make them sit j/s for a couple days at a time (just go cold mike & don't let them touch anything). The rest of us junior peaons would gladly take a staple and the worst rsrv. lines on the DC-9.

b. A huge chunk of us weren't here when J.C. did that...we're not big fans of his work!

c.Not so sure RJDC was "nonesense" (granted, it could have been handled differently)...it seems pretty obvious ALPA has a conflict of interest. Wasn't ASA part of that too?

d. I don't want to speak for JoeMerchant, but I believe he was referring to DOH within our peer group (DCI carriers). It'll never happen, but nice to know there are others you can count on in a bar fight.

Joe Merchant works for ASA; he was talking about proposing a resolution to give Comair pilots DOH at ASA. I guess unity within a union is a pretty far-fetched concept.

ALPA is not a union. Keep repeating that until you get it. ALPA is an association of individual unions. Your airlines pilot group is your only union.

I guess I don't follow all the paths of this thread.

Suffice it to say that I am sure that any Comair (or ASA) pilot would make a fine addition to the DAL seniority list. I have no desire to "blackball" anyone. I just want you to know that there are some formerly-furloughed DAL guys (I was not personally furloughed, however) who still have some hard feelings about stuff in the past.

We do need to move on, and have. I hope that we can hire a lot of you all, Comair included. Just do it the way nearly all the rest of have--submit an application, get invited for an interview, and get hired. And then welcome aboard.

The LEC 112 meeting was this past Friday, and Joe sat there like a bump on a log.

This is just Joe's latest attempt to embarrass ALPA. He's trying to lure the ALPA cheerleaders to say what a bad idea this is so that he can call them hypocrites. He posted this same flamebait on Flightinfo. Pretty transparent if you ask me.

Move along... nothing to see here...

A resolution to give Comair pilots preferential hiring at ASA. How ironic.

The Comair pilots were offered preferential hiring at Delta.
JC Lawson and the Comair MEC said no.
Many, probably most, current Comair pilots would be at the mainline right now.
All Lawson had to do was let CMR hire Delta furloughees without resigning from Delta.
Instead we have December 16, 2002. A date which will live in infamy.
The RJDC and their poodle, JC Lawson, screwed the entire CMR pilot group along with the Delta furloughees.

Here is the offending document.


TO: Comair Pilots
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman
DATE: December 16, 2002

Your MEC met in CVG with the Delta MEC Chairman, Captain Will Buergey, at his request, to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Through this letter, I hope to dispel rumors and provide a more thorough understanding of the purpose and outcome of that meeting.

The Delta MEC, while in session at the bi-annual October Board of Directors meeting in Hollywood, Florida, formally directed the Delta MEC Chairman via resolution to meet with the Comair MEC Chairman to seek preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair while allowing them to retain their Delta seniority.

The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:

We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier.
We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.
At our meeting in CVG, Captain Buergey offered preferential hiring to Comair pilots if the Comair MEC would recommend to Comair management that they hire furloughed Delta pilots and allow them to retain their Delta seniority.

Your MEC responded that hiring any pilots at Comair who do not resign their seniority at their previous carrier gives rise to numerous substantive concerns. The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support. We suggested three alternative concepts, any one or all of which might lead to a mutually beneficial solution:

Relax the Delta PWA, Section 1, seat restrictions imposed upon Comair and ASA that limit our growth in 70-seat and larger airframes.
Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language with Delta management that defines all Delta flying within the Delta revenue stream to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.

The Comair MEC stands ready to work with the collective MEC's to bring about change that makes sense in a challenging economic environment and works for all pilots who perform flying under the Delta brand. As we stated in the Tuesday, December 3rd meeting, our door is still open.

COMAIR MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
SUITE 120 3940 OLYMPIC BOULEVARD ERLANGER, KY 41018
859-282-9016 FAX 859-283-5533

Yup, that is a horrible stance that those chumps took. They are also no longer in power, yet unfortunately still active pilots here.

There are also 537 pilots here that were hired after that regrettable letter.

I wouldn't mind seeing those responsible for the letter removed from our union permanently.

Those responsible for that letter should have been recalled from office the very day that letter was put out.