Foreign pilots
 

Would someone please educate me as to why people with foreign citizenship and passports are able to work for airlines based in the United States when in many countries in Europe and elsewhere it is impossible to get a job without citizenship? Why are foreign pilots getting jobs in the United States while my U.S. born brothers and sisters are furloughed and on the streets. It's not a race debate, its an ethics debate. I'm not trying to be a bigot, but I am trying to understand......

Why would the US government grant work permits/Visas to the Air Lingus pilots when thousands of qualified Americans are on the street? And you are right, without European citizenship I don't think you can fly there unless the aircraft has a US registration.

Long story short...

1) The United States has the largest aviation industry.
2) Flight training here is much cheaper
3) There has never been protection for American jobs no matter what industry you've looked at
4) Other countries want to grow their aviation industry and want to hire from within
5) Other countries are not (were not) as financially advanced as the US and thus need to keep those jobs to boost their economies.
6) Those countries are allowed to discriminate based on all things we are not.

Flyerfly:

What does that make the thousand of expats flying in the middle east, Latin America, Africa, and Asia? You can't have it both ways. It can't be ok for our guys to go overseas, but then flash the foreign card here in the States.

So here's an idea; how about reciprocating agreements instead of this foreign pilot narrow minded bull**** some of guys keep throwing around? If you're unhappy with the current arrangement write your congressmen, write the administrator, write your reps assuming you work for an airline. As I said before, you can't have it both ways, you can't knock foreign pilots for coming over here and applying to fly here as legal residents, while at the same time saying is ok for the thousands of expats to work overseas.

sighs....I don't blame you for being so uninformed because everyone seems to think the same. It's no different in Europe than it is here. If you have a green card (permanent resident) for that country, you can work for the airline. Lufthansa, for example, requires permanent residency (NOT citizenship) and fluency in German. It's the same here in the US. If you have a green card and can speak English, you can fly for the airlines.

edit: reference page 2...http://www.be-lufthansa.com/fileadmi...LH_E_Pilot.pdf

I completely agree. Seriously, it becomes annoying to hear this pointless argument thrown around so often. Man up, quit whining, and realize you can't have it both ways.

I'm sure you didn't mind the foreign students that helped you gain your experience as a flight instructor that much faster.. Maybe you already forgot that you instructed at a JAA flight school in USA....

I don't have a beef with foreign pilots.

Want someone to blame for thousands of your brothers furloughed? Blame the seniority system. That's really why they're furloughed. Has nothing to do with foreigners.

No US airline, to my knowledge, has a clause that will provide sponsorship to a foreign pilot. That foreigner has to have permanent residency in the US (green card) at the minimum. If he/she does... so what? They have every legal right to work in the US, just like you do...

However, they cannot:

- hold security clearance... green card holders cannot be FFDO's for example.
- hold an elected office until they become citizens, and they can never be the president.
- vote.
- be commissioned officers in the military - they can however enlist.

Also, before every simulator training session, even green card holders have to obtain TSA clearance, unlike US citizens.

As for griping about JAA/EASA and how it's a PITA to obtain their license, well.... you may have a point there - though if you have residency in the EU, and if you're typed, they can validate your license and you can fly with them for up to a year on a validated FAA license, though at some point you'll need to convert it to full JAA license.

Take it easy bud... lots of us are living/flying and making a decent living abroad because we refuse to be paid peanuts in the US.

I guess one thing those "people with foreign citizenship" have learned is the American immigration laws. As a "U.S. born brother or sister" the very least that you should do is make yourself familiar with the laws of the country that you were born in and live in. I suggest using the search engine of your choice to do some reading on the subject. It would be nice if you did a 3,000 word essay and submit it here so that the mods could sticky it for all to see.

I am currently on my third job outside of the U.S. or it's territories. I am here working alongside people from all over the world and most get along fairly well. I am here because it was (again) the best option if I wanted to continue to fly and further my career.

Though I don't have the numbers, I would bet money that the U.S. is the biggest pilot exporter in the world. Think about that the next time you complain about "foreigners" stealing your job.

BTW, if you are Native American, then I sincerely apologize as the rest of us are truly foreigners in your country.

He must be...

This question has been answered on this topic (very well I might add.) But I'd like to add some things to it. I am a U.S. citizen, however not born in the US. I was naturalized through legal means of course. I was also furloughed a couple times before. I'd just like to clarify that "U.S. born citizens" have the same job rights as naturalized US citizen, minus being the president (that I won't contest, I don't want to be president anyway) So to recap;

1. Job in the US requires; US Citizenship or Green Card or Work Visa
2. Job in the US as a pilot requires; US Citizenship, or Green Card with TSA clearance.
3. Green card eventually turns into US Citizenship for the most part.
4. Green card = legal means of evnetually becoming a resident/US Citizen.

I also just want to add, that getting a work visa to work in the US aviation industry is not an easy thing. I have a european citizen friend who waited 5 years for a US work visa. He can also only work at that specific airline because work visas are sponsered by that company only. If he gets fired, furloughed, or the airline closes shop.... their goes his work visa too.

Heyas,

I think the question the OP was asking was a little different than the answers he got.

Everything I've read says that it is virtually impossible these days to even get a green card, let alone an immigration visa (way different than a temporary one) unless you have a lot of horsepower with who you work for or a relative that will sponsor you.

And when I say horsepower with your employer, that means you are a PhD, MD or have some other kind of highly specific or technical skill. So highly specific that they can't find it locally. Or you have a TON of money. Like millions (actors/actresses/etc). In either case, these people spend a TON of cash greasing the skids of the immigration process.

Now none of these things apply in any way to the airline industry. You think some regional, or even a major for that matter, is going to pay some immigration attorney 100k to push a visa application for a new hire? So how to people still find their way into the business?

Well, legal immigration. That accounts for a TINY minority.

Sponsorship of a blood relative. That accounts for a bit more.

But the simple answer is marrage. Lots and lots of it. And if you don't think "targeted" marrage doesn't account for a TON of how people get green cards, then you are hopelessly naive.

When I was a CFI, we had more than a few Euro types come over on the "education" visa. The one where you could "work" in your field of study for up to two years.

As the visa period came to a close, one offered cash money for marrage. "$5000, and 3 years and anything goes".

Another, who planned WAY ahead, left their spouse and filed for divorce the day after the 3 year window was over.

Think it was just men working the action? The above two cases were perpetrated by women. My buddy who had his wife leave at the 3 year mark was devistated. He had NO idea that was what she was after. Silly him, he thought it was love.

That was nearly 20 years ago. They may have tightened down the rules since then, but I doubt it. A friend had her husband leave after he got his citizenship, and that was just a few years ago. She also had no idea.

My guess this accounts for a big part of what you see in the airline business. But its "legal immigration". Most of it may even because people are in love and are committed to each other. I will leave it to your personal inclinations as to what the percentages are.

But the laws have changed. Many universities are having a severe time finding graduate students for the sciences (math, engineering, computer science, natural sciences, etc) because the laws and the vetting process governing those people has become quite strict. Many universities also work on government projects require background checks that these people simply cannot complete. As a result, the demand for US Citizens in graduate programs has skyrocketed. If you want to go to grad school, and you are a US Citizen, there are some amazing deals out there. Places will bend over backwards for you.

Nu

First of all, it's a very small minority that have most likely married or gotten sponsored into a green card. Second of all, it's because they can. This is a country with open borders. Most countries have closed borders, they can not afford to lose people so they obviously prefer to hire within and they make it harder for outsiders to become a citizen and get a job.

Yes, kick all of the foreign born pilots out of the airlines here in the US and suddenly this "pilot shortage" will begin. Leave all the flying jobs to the American born Americans because they are more entitled it sounds like.

Close this idiot thread.

Must be all your lovely flight attendants

flyerfly, can I ask where you grew up? Let me guess, you hate Canadians too?

MOD INPUT:

Please keep this civil and non-inflammatory. While bordering on the political, the subject in question is non-partisan and relevant to the US airline industry.

Are you a complete ignorant? Have you ever stepped outside of the usa?
Dubai is little america. So is India and China. Americans are flying for airlines all over the world. The LAW in the USA is that if you have a right to work then you have a right to work regarless of race, creed or religion. Read the constitution. Just because a person has an accent on the radio doesn't make then any less of a citizen than you.
Buy an airline ticket to China, go to a airline and they WILL do what it takes to hire you. But have the balls to go over there and try it out.

Wow all of you guys need to either get a punching bag or to really go to town on some woman because there is so much built up aggression and rage in this thread that was unwarranted. It was simply an educational question and clearly with my remarks on "not trying to be a bigot, and trying to understand" didn't mean anything to any of you. Maybe you should all write a 3000 word essay on how to read critically and understand where the writer is coming from. At least one of you got it. I grew up in small town Iowa. I love Canadians (except their beers), and I enjoy traveling and learning about everyone's cultures. I accept everyone for who they are. Thread fail. Close it. I'll just ask Wikipedia....It'll have better information.......

Better information on what? Seriously.

you think US exports more than the UK or not at least a tie? Counting, of course, the many UK nationals that have probably spent most of their lives outside of Great Britain.

I feel the same about a lot of semi-skilled positions I've worked in, the immigrants are here to make a buck, not because I couldn't do the job as well or better. life isn't always fair.

That is just preposterous. Please explain exactly how the seniority system is to blame for furloughs.

Sighs, eh?

Before you attack the OP, why don't you try and explain to me the inequity of transfering certificates between JAA and FAA? I don't think that you can. I know that when I fly a 172 in Ireland (for fun), my FAA ATP grants me a whopping PPL with day privleges only.... Meanwhile, the JAA pilot can go to a FSDO and AUTOMATICALLY be crossdecked with a Commercial certificate. One written and BAM, Instrument rating. One more written and checkride, ATP.....

Meanwhile, the FAA pilot, regardless of rating, has to start from square one in Europe.

And before you spout off about Emirates et al. I am talking about professional flying in Western Europe and Australia specifically, not some Third World country or 12th Century throwback city.

I didn't realize the argument was regarding the ease in certificate transfer. I thought we were talking about the right to work for an airline in a country. Guess what. Those with green cards here didn't magically have an FAA certificate. They had to start from square one. No need to whine about how difficult it is to get a JAA cert. If you REALLY wanna work for a European carrier, get the damn cert and quit complaining. Nothing is holding you back.

Go to Canada and pay $100, take a test and voila you have a CDN ATPL.
If you have a right to work in Canada you are set.
It cost me $4000 to convert my license from Canada to the USA. Mind you that was 10 years ago and the US Regs were a bit different.
15 years ago if you came from Europe and had a ATPL you would get a FAA commercial with a stamp on it that said "Not for Hire". You would then have to take a flight test and written to get the restriction removed.
I don't know why the regs changed, or for what reason. Maybe to increase revenue for flight schools in the US. Tighter regulations is doing nothing for GA in Europe. Maybe we should be thankful for the income of foreign students.

1234567890

Hi!

If U want to work in the US, you need a green card and FAA license. If a company really, really wants to hire a Euro pilot, with no green card, and no FAA license, and they know all the right people....it still won't help. no job for that guy.

On the other hand, if a certain Euro company wants to hire an American with no right-to-work/EU citizenship, and no JAA license, they CAN get them a work permit and have their license converted to JAA.

So, it is POSSIBLE for an American to get a Euro job, and there is 0% chance a Euro guy will get a US job.

If someone is legally entitled to a US job (green card/citizenship and FAA license), it should not (and does not) matter where they were born, what their citizenship is, or what is their first language.

cliff
MIA

I came to the USA from Canada in 1990 as an RN during a significant nursing shortage. By 1992 I had my Perminent Resident status (Green Card) and started flight training shortly after.18 years later I am still a Canadian citizen and though I cannot vote, I still do not want to change my citizenship. I still occasionally get the "you are taking jobs from Americans" yet I have faithfully paid my taxes and have helped to save the lives of more than a few Americans. This country was built on legal immigration, and it is what continues to make it great.

"We got into space thanks to German rocket scientists and Canadian aerospace engineers" G. Krantz

A JAA commercial requires roughly 700 hours of ground instruction to get and how much does the FAA require? Only a small percentage of that. (yes too lazy to get the exact #'s). Other countries have written tests you actually have to study for... and not this memorize the Gleim answer garbage. That is why the FAA license isn't taken very seriously or given reciprocity in JAA countries.

Also if you if have an FAA commercial they credit you 200 hours of study toward your JAA... not square one.

No, people are just calling you out for your demonstration of general ignorance...

In your original rant, you implied that "foreigners" were taking many aviation jobs from "regular Americans", even resulting in some furloughs...patently false. As pointed out by others, many Americans are actually working abroad as expats, and far outnumber any green card holders working in aviation.

You also implied that flying jobs were currently being offered to any non-citizen who desired to work in the U.S., demonstrating a lack of knowledge of your own country's immigration laws. FYI the legal immigration process is no cake walk...if someone has jumped through the hoops, they most definitely have the legal right to work here.

What is a regular American? I had the honor to witness my wife's ceremony when she became a citizen it was awe inspiring to see people from all over the world there with their traditional dresses and speaking probably 20 different languages, the person administering the oath started mentioning all the countries that were present and people started to raise their hands as their country was mentioned, after the ceremony was finished then he said "Now all Americans raise their hands" the place erupted in thunderous cheer and they all raised their hands and started jumping with joy, if that is not what this country is about and those are not regular Americans I don't know what is.

But I do know one thing, you Mr. Flyerfly do not get what this country is really about

The original poster stated Foreign pilots have nothing to do with furloughs. The seniority system does. If you're (un)fortunate to be on the bottom of some seniority list, and the company furloughs, getting furloughed has nothing to do with foreign pilots, but rather the furloughee's date of hire.

In other words... the original poster's anger is misplaced.

Its amazing how a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. Let’s look at the initial post first:

US Citizens – have either been born here or naturalized. Either way if you go back a few generations or in a lot of cases, just one generation you will find a parent who emigrated from another country. Or in the later case, they have done what the US government has asked them to do to obtain citizenship.

Stealing jobs from brothers and sisters? As already stated, should we all close the boarders to prevent flow out as well as flow in? How dare Emirates come here recruiting!

Legal Permanent Residents – Are just that. Again the government has stated how to go about the process, and those that have followed it surely can reap the rewards. Now if you don’t like that we need to start a debate as to how many are removed along with their offspring which means most of the US apart from Native Americans.

Oh, and should the Statue of Liberty be returned along with the Colossus “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free”

Now onto working in Europe

The countries of the EU have many work visas similar to the USA which have two subtle differences. Firstly there are no caps in most cases, and secondly if you have a job offer, the company who offers you the job can sponsor you for the visa. Some airlines and other companies have different requirements, but European anti discrimination laws keep that fairly well checked.

As for getting the JAA license, here we go again.

If you want to fly in the USA as the holder of an ATP, regardless of your qualifications, you will need to take the same exam a low hour pilot has to take and take a flight test for that license. If you want to work in Europe the requirement for a high time pilot is the same as a low time pilot. You can’t blame the system. It is there to prevent people who learn 900 questions without having a clue as to why it is the right answer from getting a position. If you are that good a pilot and that knowledgeable, you should have no problems passing the exams, and have no issues with taking them so that you can go and earn $50,000 per year as a first year FO on a Q-400 or even $100,000 as a fist year 737 FO. There was a Massive difference between the requirements for the Aer Lingus job openings between FAA and JAA rated pilots. I wonder why??

But I will concede that the mentality is that if you have paid your dues in the USA, then it should be easy for you to get one of those jobs in Europe or Asia. Until we get past that stupid saying, things will never change.

It is much easier for a citizen of just about any other country to get a job in America, than an American to get a job in just about any other country.

The USA is very generous with permitting foreign work and make the process relatively easy, compared to other countries.

I know from experience.

Unless you have a valid work permit for the USA you will never be able to fly here. Unlike Africa/middle east/asia where you can be an expat and land a tax free flying job. Your post was wrong. Yes there are visa/work permits given out for farming jobs/hotel industry because americans are not willing to do the jobs. NAFTA allows professionals to travel more freely accross the CDN and Mexican border but still have to apply with the INS.
Airline pilots are not part of NAFTA because you do not need a university degree to work as a pilot. Therefore it doesn't meet the requirements of a professional job.

this was my reaction to the above:-

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:_s93BU4sDvjIDM:b

I find these statements always to be vague. Care to share the experience?

Getting a work permit is far from easy in the US. The US is VERY restrictive when it comes to work permits and even more for permanent residency. Otherwise, you wouldn't have as much illegal immigration from the southern border.

And I know from the experience of obtaining a US Perminent visa how difficult and expensive it is. I was fortunate becuse there was a major nursing shortage, and as a professional I was needed in the USA. I knew Canadian MDs who could not get work visas becuse their specialties were not in demand. I had my US resident Alien status before I even started flight training otherwise I would not be here as a pilot.

True, but that is what makes this country the greatest integrated social experiment in the history of humanity and that shouldn't be criticized but rather praised.

What I find Ironic is the indignation that some are expressing here because back up a few years and the American ex pat pilot population world wide was negligible; take Japan for example, when I started working here 4 years ago you would be hard pressed to find a single American pilot here but now I don't remember when was the last time that I met a new pilot from anywhere else but the US. But now that the resumes are numbered in the thousand world wide all of a sudden there are many cries of injustice due to being discriminated against. Funny how things come and bite us in the derriere because prior to 9/11 any employment abroad was unthinkable and not up to our high standards and now we are even taking jobs in third world countries and complaining as to why the red carpet isn't rolled out for us.