Committee Challenges New 1500 Hr Requirement
 

Anybody else tracking this? Boo!

What further proof is needed that the 1500 hour rule is good for pilots than having airline management and Roger Cohen fighting against the bill?

Committee Challenges New 1500 Hr Requirement For FO's

Can someone get Roger Cohen put on the no fly list? Maybe even dig up some associations with some terrorists, get him labeled an enemy combatent and held indefinately without trial. You know, it wouldn't be so bad. Just sayin'
:cool:

ALPA is backing Roger Cohen. What a proud day for us all...

Not only does this proposal lower the standards for airline hiring but it would encourage new pilots to train at expensive 141 flight schools. I can see the glossy ad "Learn to fly here and get a 1000 hour deduction in your hours requirement," too bad that reduction will cost them $100,000 in debt.

Perfect example of how stupid congress can be. In one room they will debate the merits of this proposal and in the other hold hearings with Sallie Mae on why so many young adults are defaulting on their student loans.

That's exactly one of the reasons why we have to fire a good chunk of Congress in just 19 days guys! Be sure to get out and vote on Nov 2!!! sorry......kinda off the topic i know!:D

As an example, please cite the names of:
1.) The incumbent to be replaced.
2.) The challenger with a more favorable stance on the 1500 rule.

I'd love to know whom to vote for, thanks!

I'll be honest, before I wasn't too gun-ho about this. I was for safety, a better wage, at higher standard of living. However, I wasn't quite sure this rule would be the cause of that. I like the outcome, I just wasn't sure this requirement would be the means to the ends.

After seeing this, I support the requirement MUCH more.

"The Air Line Pilots Association backed the committee's recommendations, while the Coalition of Air Line Pilot Associations supported experience over even enhanced training."


time to bounce ALPA and vote in an in house w CAPA affiliation

Want him to hold your your hand while you vote as well?

Negative, I was asking him to support his argument. Sapient rationality is so out of fashion these days...

USMail pilots/their requirements in the 1920s
 

To put things into prospective the US Air Mail pilots in the late 1920s were required to have at least 500 hours of flight time to fly those contracts. Think about that for a second. What was the average lifespan of an Airmail Pilot? That was hard IMC flying with minimal equipment.

I guess my question is why was the commercial requirement ever as low as 250 hours. These airmail pilots weren't even carrying people and they were required to have more experience than today's airline pilots.

Let's look at experience. Air traffic and travel is much different today than it was back then, but I would almost look at the airmail pilots as being the bush pilots of the lower 48. That was experience. Flying around flight instructing, towing banners and and the like doesn't compare to flying single pilot IFR for a small freight company, or flying for a small charter outfit.

I think what the regulators are looking at is that you should be able to trade experience for the Total Hour requirement if the experience is useful and pertains to commercial aviation. (time spent flying a king air or something high performance through weather at altitude in busy airpsace. Not spending 500 hours flying through the same airspace in central FL and never getting any experience with Icing.)

The guy spending time in the King Air will need 1500 total and has more experience. The Empty Nipple grad with 500 hours is going to get the job in his place.

ALPA is supporting this because they think it will pass. Was the same thing with age 65. I agree with you guys, it's time to bounce them.

I expect the RAA and ATA to support watering-down entry level requirements to fly 121. It's only natural for them...keeps their costs down.

What is mind-boggling and unacceptable is ALPA backing yet again something that hurts its own members. What is their deal? ALPA, PLEASE STOP HELPING US!

ALPA is irrelevant, no longer represents its membership, and member airline unions, beginning with my own, should cut ties to it.

We need a union that will represent airline pilot's interests...not a bunch of dopes that'll do and say anything just as long as they get to sit at the cool dude's table.

They need to improve the training quality in my opinion. Is someone who has flown a C172 around a Texas farm for 1500 hours more valuable than a 500 hour pilot with deep understanding of jet transport flying/sim training, etc? Not in my opinion, I feel if you want to become an airline/jet transport pilot, then you need to begin that learning process from the beginning to understand the dynamic operating environment it takes to be safe and successful in this industry. It's been working in Europe for years, and I think it's time the US adapts a similar process. It's not just about how much experience you have, but the quality of your experience that makes the difference. KLM, Lufthansa, British are good examples.

But with that, if airlines want qualified pilots, they need to pay for it! The only reason the airlines don't want the 1500 hour rule is money, they know they will have to raise their poverty salaries which cuts into managements fancy bonuses!

Can someone more knowledgeable than myself tell me what happens if I stop paying my ALPA bill?

I will be sending ALPA a check for $1 dollar this month. Anyone with me?

I don't think University's should get a special exemption. If 1500 is the way to go, it's the way to go for everyone. I think 1500 is too high, but my view lost the debate.

Sounds good. You'll be expelled from the union, and then your contract's agency shop clause says you'll be terminated. Have fun with that.

Why are you listening to a newspaper article about what ALPA supports? How many times have we all seen reporters hand out blatantly inaccurate information about aviation issues? Did the thought ever occur that maybe this reporter doesn't have his facts straight?

But it so much easier to go on an internet message board and complain about how little ALPA does for them. ;)

Fair enough, but in this case it's pretty clear that ALPA is willing to compromise on the 1500 hour minimum.

I'll be sending an email to [email protected]

You can't be fired for opting out of a union. It is your legal right to either be a part of a union or not. Your attitude is one of the many reasons why people like myself aren't a big fan of unions because you try to scare people into becoming and staying a member by threatening that you will lose your job otherwise.

You mean like:

Tim is ALPA? :D

You can opt out, but you still have to pay the contract admin fee though. If you don't do that, you could be fired.

I know this but most union guys don't want you to know that and they use scare tactics to make you think you have to be a part of worthless ALPA. I am no against unions but I am sick and tired of ALPA and in turn they will no longer be getting another penny from me.

i'll keep paying my dues, but I will make a move to start a vote and decertify ALPA as our representation. In house is the way to go. No more ALPA PAC chumming it up with government officials and pushing agendas that hurt the profession.

It just proves that Roger Cohen never had a real job in his life

Has it ever occurred to anyone that ALPA genuinely believes that safety would be served better by being able to substitute some of the hours required for an ATP with relevant courses offered by ABBI accredited institutions?

you probably are also for doctors internship be reduce by 60 percents if they just watch some youtube of surgery's.

ALPA is supposed to be a union. That means it is supposed to be an "organization of workers formed for the purpose of advancing its members' interests in respect to wages, benefits, and working conditions."

ALPA should be looking out for the interests of Airline Pilots...not people who aren't airline pilots yet.

The corrupt band of yahoos that lead ALPA are blinded so badly by their desire to "sit at the table" that they are selling out the very people they are supposed represent. Perhaps they honestly believe they are helping...problem is they are not. Lowering barriers to entry into the profession only serves to dilute our skill and positions we've obtained to our detriment. What they have done and are doing hurts all of us...airline pilots AND people who want to be airline pilots.

CAPA, now.

My understanding is that they will still deduct dues from your paycheck regardless if your a member or not. Their argument is that you are still under protection from "their" contract. "Their" work. Correct me if I'm wormg.

I think the point is that they must do internships. To gain that real world experience under the tutelage of an experienced doctor. As you know this is not a requirement for airline pilots. Experience or training like this, in some form, would be great experience for a new pilot before he/she gets to an airline. I think courses from acredited schools should be given some sort of credit.

For all you guys that mock Riddle and other schools like that, you have no idea what your talking about. I got a much better knowledge base in commercial aviation particularly, airline operations then if i just flew around towing a banner or got my training at some mom and pop school. I was much more prepared for airline training than someone who had no exposure to it at all. We had classes in advanced aerodynamics, advanced aircraft systems and avionics, power plants, weather, CRM, performance, safety, a CRJ course, and so on. I think you get the point. You mean to tell me that these course do not help someone prepare for a career as an airline pilot what so ever? That they have no bearing on a person's qualifications to be an airline pilot? Your arguement with they new doctor proves that very point. They MUST have certain course, or they can not continue into their profession. Why do you think Riddle guys get hired at places? Because companies know that they have had these courses which makes them a much better candidate for a pilot position. So a 1500 hr banner pilot with no advanced training is a better candidate than a, say 800 hr guy with advanced training?

I've been in airline systems classes where people had no clue about high altitude aerodymaics, jet systems, high altitude weather. Some didn't know why most jets have a swept wing. How they got threw the interview I don't know. At this level you should have some knowledge of those things. I just don't think your initial training course at an airline is the place to be exposed to that for the first time. Courses at an accredited school prepare you for that. Knowledge is power.

I'm not saying that I was ready to fly for the airlines right out of the box, I wasn't, that's why I CFI'd and did some 135 stuff. I'm also not saying that I know it all because I went to Riddle, or that I'm the greatest pilot ever because I went to Riddle, or that Riddle is the greatest school ever. We definitely should have a much higher time requirement. I agree, that real world experience is everything. But if your real world experience consists of single-engine flight time over a beach for 1500hrs, I don't think that makes the cut. Another problem is how to make it fair as well.

End rant. Rebuttals?

That makes a lot of sense....maybe too much sense.

Well...ok then....

I won't go further into semantics or proper spelling, because I do agree with your main point. I think certain training should have "incentives" or "rewards" because some programs provide value beyond tooling around with the proverbial banner in tow. For certain.

However, knocking the requirement down to 500 guts the spirit of the 1500 hour rule. How about 1500 hours for the ERAU (et al.) grads and something more for the mom and pop trainees. Please tell me congress isn't dumbing things down to 500 TT. I say foul!! :mad:

Even a riddle grad should be better at 1500 hours then he/she was at 500 hours. all hours are not the same but neither are students. Do C students get the same "credit" as A students?

If a pilot wants a leg up in the hiring process then good for them. Add additional qualifications ..... like your riddle degree to your 1500 hours.

Do you think 1500 hours is it? Dragging a banner up and down the street for a couple of summers wont get you the ATP or even meet the requirements.

THIS IS WHAT SHOULD BE REQUIRED FOR EVERY AIRLINE PILOT!

NO NEGOTIATIONS PERIOD!

1. Be at least 23 years of age.
2. Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language.
3. Be of good moral character.
4. Meet at least one of the following:
5. Hold at least a commercial pilot certificate and an instrument rating.
6. Meet the military experience requirements (listed in FAR 61.73) to qualify for a commercial pilot certificate and an instrument rating.
7. Hold either a foreign ATP or a foreign commercial pilot license and an instrument rating, without limitations, issued by a member nation of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).
8. Hold at least a current FAA third-class medical certificate. Later, if your flying requires an ATP certificate, you must hold a first-class medical certificate.
9. Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor, or complete a home-study course (such as studying Airline Transport Pilot FAA Knowledge Test and Aviation Weather and Weather Services) to learn (61.155)
10. Applicable Federal Aviation Regulations . . . that relate to airline transport pilot privileges, limitations, and flight operations.
11. Meteorology, including knowledge of and effects of fronts, frontal characteristics, cloud formations, icing, and upper-air data.
12. General systems of weather and NOTAM collection, dissemination, interpretation, and use.
13. Interpretation and use of weather charts, maps, forecasts, sequence reports, abbreviations, and symbols.
14. National Weather Service functions as they pertain to operations in the National Airspace System.
15. Windshear and microburst awareness, identification, and avoidance.
16. Principles of air navigation under instrument meteorological conditions in the National Airspace System.
17. Air traffic control procedures and pilot responsibilities as they relate to en route operations, terminal area and radar operations, and instrument departure and approach procedures.
18. Aircraft loading, weight and balance, use of charts, graphs, tables, formulas, and computations, and their effect on aircraft performance.
19. Aerodynamics relating to an aircraft's flight characteristics and performance in normal and abnormal flight regimes.
20. Human factors.
21. Aeronautical decision making and judgment.
22. Crew resource management to include crew communication and coordination.
23. Pass a pilot knowledge test with a score of 70% or better.
    1. A knowledge test is not required for you to add another aircraft type rating to your ATP certificate if your ATP certificate lists the aircraft category and class rating that is appropriate to the type rating sought.
24. Accumulate flight experience (FAR 61.159).
    1. Except as provided in b. and c. on the next page, you must log at least 1,500 hr. of total time as a pilot that includes at least
       1. 500 hr. of cross-country flight time
       2. 100 hr. of night flight time
          1. A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hr. of night flight time, limited to not more than 25 hr. of night flight time.
       3. 75 hr. of actual or simulated instrument flight time
          1. The maximum time that may be accumulated in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane, is either
             1. 25 hr., if the training is not conducted under FAR Part 142, or
             2. 50 hr., if the training is conducted under FAR Part 142.
       4. 250 hr. of flight time as PIC of an airplane, or as SIC performing the duties and functions of a PIC under the supervision of a PIC, or by any combination of the two. This requirement must include
          1. 100 hr. of cross-country time
          2. 25 hr. of night flight time
          NOTE: Not more than 100 hr. of the total aeronautical experience requirements may be obtained in a flight simulator or a flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the experience was obtained in a course conducted under FAR Part 142.

Thanks for agreeing, and thanks for pointing out the one misspelled word in my whole rant.

Response to above statements..... Well the C student will have to answer to the person giving the interview, if they get that far. I know I did. I wasn't a C student but my transcript was far from perfect and they drilled me on it. I think meeting the ATP mins is good. But just because you can memorize some answers from a book or memorize how to work THROUGH (there I spelled it right) a problem, doesn't necessarily mean you understand it. But at least you learn something form it. If you can past the test, I would say you are probably good to go. I think that the ATP written is in a serious need of an upgrade though. I think that training as a whole, from private to ATP needs to be upgraded. Every school should be part 141 or better. I think the FAA needs to be held more accountable for how pilots are trained. And of course a 1500 pilot is going to better than when he had 500. Just like your better at 5000 then when your at 1500 and so on.

What do you guys think of this - instead of an ATP written, pilots must have taken, and passed, certain academic courses in order to meet those requirements. Courses that deal with more advanced aircraft and the subjects related to it. Theoretically, the current way, someone could go from private to CFI, get the flight time for the ATP, without ever touching as much as a Cessna and whatever for their multi rating, take the test, pass, and still not fully understand some of the subject matters related to flying high performance aircraft. Am I wrong with that theory? According to some of you, that would be acceptable. As long as they got the ATP right? And why is there no multi engine requirement in the ATP?

Is there any relief for military pilots on the 1500 hr rule

As of right now, I don't believe so.

Nor should there be unless there is language that waters down the requirements for others in my opinion.
With the commitments such as they are I'm not sure that there are too many communities out there that can't reach that goal after meeting the minimum service commitments.

USMCFLYR

People are bashing ALPA because this does not help the supply side of the economic equation. My only point is that maybe ALPA believes that safety is more important. I do think there should be credit given. I just beleive that 1000 hours credit is a bit too much.

The ARC just submitted their recommendations. Its not know what they recommended, if anything, for military pilots. The FAA will issue an NPRM and we will see if they do propose giving them credit. At that point, everyone will be able to comment and give their opinion. Hopefully, the FAA will issue a final rule that is fair to military pilots.