Originally Posted by Pinchanickled (Post 887116)

Has there ever been an airline to go longer than Pinnacle has been in contract negotiations? Is 9E in record setting airline pilot negotiations?

From my viewpiont, it just seems there's no pressure from any inside or outside source to get a contract. All of the emails regarding this continue to say the same exact thing..."progress has been made, but yet we still have more work to do. Remain strong and unified, success will be achieved"......after nearly 7 years of that same old song repeating itself, I must only wonder if it's just the same story passed down generation to generation.

Originally Posted by bored (Post 887151)

Huh? I know it's been a long time for you guys... but are we reading the same negotiating updates? AFAIK they're pouring all their resources into this joint contract, which is halfway done. Negotiations are scheduled every week until the 15th. They all seem to be eager and confident the deal will be wrapped up by the November 15th deadline.

As soon as they announced their intentions after the Mesaba purchase, the game changed. Now they have all kinds of pressure to get a deal done ASAP. The sooner they get a deal done, the sooner they can start integrating, which will save them tons of money. That itself, is incentive for the company to get a deal done.

Originally Posted by Pinchanickled (Post 887145)

RU4692:

Many of us have. However the even the smallest positions available are given out via the buddy system quickly. Help wanted isn't advertised, rather kept on the down low. When you call reps, no response, when you fill out hotel perfoance reports, no response, when you file a grievance, again nj response and if your lucky your grievance might get picked as one of the "lucky 8" that will be represented to the arbitrator. Even the smallest union rep positions have perks, such as monthly reimbursement of your cell phone with no accountability to return calls or even answer.

Lots of people would love to help, but it had to be welcomed and accepted first.


By the way I dig your statement at the end of each of your posts........reminds of 9E contract negotiations! "it goes on".

Originally Posted by bored (Post 887520)

True, the meaty subjects have yet to be proposed or are being proposed this week (section 25, according to the last hotline). A rep explained it to me this way... what's being proposed is either Mesaba current contract, latest Pinnacle TA language or a combination of the two. Nothing being proposed is all that radically different from what was already agreed to in the Pinnacle TAs or mgmt knew what they were getting with the XJ contract. I was very skeptical with the November 15th deadline in the beginning, but after talking to my rep, I think the deal can actually get done. Honestly, it sounds like retirement and insurance will be a harder sell than pay. As for the perdiem... I don't think it's that a dollar amount wasn't agreed to, it's just that it hasn't been proposed yet.

Originally Posted by bored (Post 887562)

Actually, the Mesaba contract only has an LOA that outlined a few concessionary areas. Since signing that LOA in 2006, we've snapped back on all but a couple things. Our pay on December 1 will snap back and then some, our perdiem will snap back and uniform allowance will snap back as well. All other areas have already snapped back. Other than that, the contract is still the one signed in 2004. Work rules were untouched as was the bulk of the contract. So... calling it a concessionary contract isn't entirely accurate. What it is though, is a 2004 contract that has been extended and needs some updating. I can't speak for the Pinnacle TAs since they were never really made public. If they make gains from current book and aren't worse than the XJ current book, I'm not so sure we can expect much more.

Having said that... after talking to my rep it sounds like the joint negotiating committee is committed to producing a TA that allows all pilots to find gains and doesn't force any pilot backwards. For Colgan and Pinnacle pilots there will be incredible gains from their current agreements. For Mesaba pilots there will be a few tweaks with improvements, but nothing earth shattering.

I think the devil lies in the duration and the pay increases beyond DOS. That, IMO, will drive the vote. I don't think we should or can expect anything beyond average to slightly above average out of this deal, especially given the time-line. Maybe the answer is a short duration for now and try to extract all the value we can with the momentum of merging and prepare for a bigger and more aggressive section 6 a short time down the road.

Originally Posted by bored (Post 887589)

We were indeed negotiating during 9/11 and that had a huge effect on the results, as did the Mesa contract and the Big Sky threat. But the end result is a contract that really isn't that bad. We have a lot of good things in the contract that we still enjoy, which were untouched in LOA23. It's an old contract that needs updating, for sure. But it's not as horrible as some people seem to think it is. I voted NO in 2004, and will vote NO again in 2010 if what's produced doesn't meet my needs and the needs of the pilot group. A no or yes vote, however, has to come based on a comprehensive look at the whole contract, not just pay rates. It also has to make sense for us and can only be compared to other airlines, to a certain extent.

According to the rep I spoke with, the company is full aware that this joint agreement will come in place of a section 6 for XJ and that there will be value returned. I believe that's why they're waiting to propose DOS + increases. The elephant in the room also, is splitting the FO pay scales, which will be a HUGE gain for ALL FOs.

Originally Posted by jayray2 (Post 887619)

Are you hearing they are going to split pay scales? With Mesaba's seniority list being upside down this could have some negative repercussions. One of those being 900 junior FOs being immediately displaced with the possibility of a pay cut for those FOs. If everyone is reported to make small gains in this deal as well as keeping their current equipment seat, a split FO rate could upset this balance. It would not surprise me if they did not split FO rates.

Originally Posted by BarbieTrash (Post 887141)

You always have the right to strike... I believe you guys and gals have earned it after 7 years.

Originally Posted by bored (Post 887678)

Jayray - they are indeed proposing to split the pay scales. Unfortunately we'll just have to deal with the repercussions (senior saab guys making less than junior 900 guys). This has to be done now and small sacrifices like this will allow huge gains overall. I really hope they don't compromise on this, but the company could be a stumbling block here. However, if it means accepting 75% DH pay, lower perdiem and trivial little things all to get the payscales split, I'll be all for that.

Originally Posted by Lone Palm (Post 887691)

I suspect the company tries to get the union to agree to dual qual. Secondly, Jayray that's the seniority system and how it works. For the last year and change the guys still on the Saab have been making less and dealing with drastically worse schedules because of the Saabs going away; the guys/gals on the jets have artificially enjoyed better pay and schedules due to the different fleet types. Overall the split of the FO scales is better for us as a whole and your seniority will dictate what you can bid as it always has.

Originally Posted by jayray2 (Post 887619)

Are you hearing they are going to split pay scales? With Mesaba's seniority list being upside down this could have some negative repercussions. One of those being 900 junior FOs being immediately displaced with the possibility of a pay cut for those FOs. If everyone is reported to make small gains in this deal as well as keeping their current equipment seat, a split FO rate could upset this balance. It would not surprise me if they did not split FO rates.

Originally Posted by Bartok (Post 887783)

There won't be displacements because of this because it won't come to a free for all bid, if senior FOs bid the 900 slots there would have to be a vacancy and they would probably incur a seat lock.

Split rate is necessary, XJ management has riden the backs of the FOs for years because of that combined rate.

Originally Posted by Lone Palm (Post 887806)

I think he is referring to all the Saab FO's that will be displaced with the Saabs going away and subsequently bidding new positions.

Originally Posted by Bartok (Post 887829)

I thought about that too, but that's going to happen regardless, not because of split rates on FOs.

And depending on when that happens and the quality of our displacement rights, most of the senior FOs will probably take Saab Captain slots and Q400 Captain slots not 900 FO.

Originally Posted by Lone Palm (Post 887971)

That may be true in the other bases but I know most of the MSP FO's won't upgrade unless it's in MSP.

Originally Posted by Bartok (Post 887981)

We'll see, passing up an upgrade is a risky business.

But everybody has their own situation.