Originally Posted by dang (Post 892242)

So Skywest (inc) has purchased Xjt. Skywest (airlines) has voted no to a pay proposal. And now we are going to fly regional jets with more than 50 seats out of IAH. This has all happened without a union. What does this mean for Skywest (airlines).

Originally Posted by thndr8 (Post 892316)

We are. Give it some time. It's in the works. Not everyone is liking all these changes here either.

Originally Posted by Slaphappy (Post 892347)

I wouldn't hold your breath, Alpo isn't interested. Neither are the majority of skywest pilots.

Originally Posted by Jamers (Post 892356)

I bet ALPA is pretty freaking interested; especially after the IAH announcement. It's time to get serious, and start losing the cranky child attitude.

Originally Posted by CRJLCA (Post 892390)

Maybe when ALPA starts defending the interests of Regional Pilots and quits bowing to the major's pilots, SkyWest pilots may be a bit more inclined to find what little good, if any, ALPA has to offer them.

Until then, ALPA doesn't show that they care about Regional Pilots. It's a "Conflict of Interest" for them. SkyWest Pilots are way better off without ALPA, oh and 2% or 3% ahead on pay.

Originally Posted by dosbo (Post 892421)

YHGTBFSM

ALPA has allowed almost 50% of all domestic flying to be given to regional airlines while drastically shrinking the number of active mainline pilots.

Untill domestic flying comes back to mainline then I can only assume that ALPA is in fact representing the the interests of regional pilots at the expense of real careers at the major airlines.

Originally Posted by dosbo (Post 892421)

ALPA has allowed almost 50% of all domestic flying to be given to regional airlines while drastically shrinking the number of active mainline pilots.

Untill domestic flying comes back to mainline then I can only assume that ALPA is in fact representing the the interests of regional pilots at the expense of real careers at the major airlines.

Originally Posted by Free Flyer (Post 892433)

Also, this only delays you RJ drivers from a decent paycheck while you wait to get hired to fly something bigger. Trust me, I've been there before and it's no fun waiting for that bigger airplane to fly.

Originally Posted by dosbo (Post 892421)

YHGTBFSM

"ALPA has allowed" almost 50% of all domestic flying to be given to regional airlines while drastically shrinking the number of active mainline pilots.

Untill domestic flying comes back to mainline then I can only assume that ALPA is in fact representing the the interests of regional pilots at the expense of real careers at the major airlines.

Originally Posted by dosbo (Post 892421)

YHGTBFSM

ALPA has allowed almost 50% of all domestic flying to be given to regional airlines while drastically shrinking the number of active mainline pilots.

Untill domestic flying comes back to mainline then I can only assume that ALPA is in fact representing the the interests of regional pilots at the expense of real careers at the major airlines.

Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 892503)

Why do you assume we want to "move up" to first year pay and loss of all seniority so that WE can get fuloughed in 2 years when oil returns to $150 a barrel and Jeff states that the "plan" only accounted for $80 a barrel?

No thanks. How about this: you direct our union to fight for your interests, and I'll direct our union to fight for my interests. May he with the best lawyers win!

Originally Posted by CRJLCA (Post 893041)

Allowed?? Like they have control over giving us table scraps? PLEEEASE!! They have NO place and NO say and thus DON'T have the abilty to ALLOW or DISALLOW anything.

That's why the sabre rattling rhetoric, ALPA focus towards Regionals looks like impotent has beens.

Originally Posted by CRJLCA (Post 893043)

That's not going to happen. The market and industry cannot support it. Be glad we are helping the majors with codeshare by supplimenting their former markets.

Originally Posted by Free Flyer (Post 893049)

If you are comfortable working at the regional and enjoy the lifestyle, then stay there, I'm just saying that there are opportunities out there for better stuff so when the timing is right, make your move.

Originally Posted by Free Flyer (Post 893049)

Just don't get upset at others like myself who took a calculated chance and things worked out. I can't stand people who whine about their current position/life but they make no effort to improve their lives. I don't know you, maybe you did try and it didn't work out. I don't know, not my deal. I just don't understand why people want to stay at a regional. It makes absolutely no sense to me, but to each his own.

Originally Posted by dosbo (Post 893055)

Of course ALPA has some control over telling thier pilot groups that a contract is good or bad before it goes to vote as well as fostering unity within a pilot group and industry as a whole. Your so called table scraps are mainline flying that was outsourced to companies and pilots willing to undercut mainline and each other for the opportunity to be the lowest paid. If your regional airline is so valuable and cost effective then put your own paint on it and start selling tickets yourself.

The markets and industry surely can afford to put all flying at mainline. It just takes the will of management to actually want to run an airline not a piggy bank for corporate bonuses. There is absolutely no reason that mainline cannot have reasonable payscales for all aircraft down to BE-1900's as an entry level aircraft. Just think of the ability to control the brand and quality of the product. United just rated second as one of the meanest airlines to fly on in the americas (domestic), any coincidence that nearly 50 percent of thier domestic flying is done by regionals? Most mainlines have lost complete control over the quality of thier product for domestic operations.

What you now consider table scrapes used to be mainline career paying flying.

Originally Posted by buddies8 (Post 893494)

referencing only the bold items, yeah thats most all of it.
mainline flying outsourced, first to outscore you need to own it, YOU DONT OWN ANY FLYING, plus if you wanted the flying, ALPA pilots mainline should not been so full of themselves to look down on this flying.

own paint, why not, another low cost carrier

reasonable payscales- you did not do it then you are going to do it now, US Airways E190 is max $95 for captain at 16 years, what you willing to do it for?

united bad numbers-now you blame the regionals for bad numbers, well you get what you pay for, was not DAL number 1.

table scraps-you you threw them away and now you are crying.

quick question, how long have you been a pilot at mainline, that is a recognized mainline?

Originally Posted by CRJLCA (Post 893525)

If the majors wanted to fly regional sized aircraft I think it would already be happening on a bigger scale. If they DO decide to go after it, most likely the staffing would be from the regionals that currently fly the tails needed. That's great and may be something that would pan out, I would though, consider that a lateral move.

Dosbo, I am happy for you that you made it to the pathway to your ultimate career goal. I know you sacrificed many things to attain it. I chose to stay where I am and like you who chose to move on, I found merit, for me, in staying.

I just don't see that the majors could continue to operate Boeings and DC-9's on low yeild markets. I see the regionals as someone who could represent the mother carrier when the market/economy could not support higher cost aircraft, but still wanting to keep the other majors from stealing their hard earned and well established market share. I see the regionals as a surgical weapon that the mother carrier may subsidise as a means to keep the competition at bay. For your mother carrier of choice, a win-win, at worst, the best of a bad situation.

In my "perfect world scenario", if I would have been making the decisions, I would have used the "Regional Airliner" as a hub bypass aircraft. That is the origional intent in Bombardier's marketing plan. Scope is what killed that. I believe that had scope not have been an issue and the mother carriers would have bought the RJ and operated it as a hub bypass that there would many more mainline pilots in the ranks. No they wouldn't be making the big dollars, but what a network to bargian with as a represented pilot and what a network to be feared from the competition.

I personally remember that ALPA pilots did not want the lower wages for the RJ and rejected the idea of them flying it. Then they were scared of the RJ and reacted with scope and thus killed creative ideas and route structures that could have been used to facilitate dominance in the mother carriers market share and route structure. There is a possibility that this will happen IF CAL and UAL pilots "go all the way" with the exclusion of the RJ codeshare within their systems, if corporate will allow it. Those tails are needed and that will bring the RJ and it's pilots into your fold. Should have been long ago, but I can see it happening in the future.

I'm still glad that I chose to stay, (25 years) and I'm happy for all who have taken the chance and moved on past the regional level. I am excited about what the future holds. I see along the way, as the airline industry evolves that some regionals may appear to some as under achievers. I used the word evolve, it's not over yet, just a slower pace that it could have been had those making the big decisions had a crystal ball. We are all doing the best we can with what we have and some companies have more available resources than others. By the time it's done evolving or should I say slowing down with big changes, we ALL may be working for just three or four carriers.
It's just the way it is today. Things are changing and the future is bright, especially with less less student pilot upstarts. Hang on the fat lady hasn't sung yet.

Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 893087)

I am. That's what I'm saying.



LOVED the dig there "maybe you did try and it didn't work out". You guys just can't help yourselves from insulting us can you? No, FYI, I've never applied. No desire to. Now for the rest of you post...

Can't stand whining? Then maybe pilot message boards aren't for you.

I'm glad you took a "risk". It seems to be a common misconception among junior mainline pilots that having taken that so-called "risk" somehow makes you better than (or more "entitled to" success) the rest of us who didn't. I will never understand why you guys feel superior to us because you chose to gamble and won (for now).

Now I'd say that you knew going in that management has a history of asking, and MECs have a history of selling scope. That was part of your risk. But now you are fighting it and blaming those still at the place you came from. Maybe a little buyer's remorse there?

I'm not upset with you except for when you make threats to take my job away, just because you chose to take a risk, and it might not be working out.

As I said. You tell our union to fight for you, and I'll tell our union to fight for me. If you can't understand why I choose to stay at a regional, then I guess it doesn't really matter.

But true unity would be to find a mutually beneficial solution like one list or a staple. When you guys unilaterally rattle your sabers and say you're going to steamroll us, of course, we're going to bow up and defend ourselves.

Originally Posted by CRJLCA (Post 893525)

If the majors wanted to fly regional sized aircraft I think it would already be happening on a bigger scale. If they DO decide to go after it, most likely the staffing would be from the regionals that currently fly the tails needed. That's great and may be something that would pan out, I would though, consider that a lateral move.

Dosbo, I am happy for you that you made it to the pathway to your ultimate career goal. I know you sacrificed many things to attain it. I chose to stay where I am and like you who chose to move on, I found merit, for me, in staying.

I just don't see that the majors could continue to operate Boeings and DC-9's on low yeild markets. I see the regionals as someone who could represent the mother carrier when the market/economy could not support higher cost aircraft, but still wanting to keep the other majors from stealing their hard earned and well established market share. I see the regionals as a surgical weapon that the mother carrier may subsidise as a means to keep the competition at bay. For your mother carrier of choice, a win-win, at worst, the best of a bad situation.

In my "perfect world scenario", if I would have been making the decisions, I would have used the "Regional Airliner" as a hub bypass aircraft. That is the origional intent in Bombardier's marketing plan. Scope is what killed that. I believe that had scope not have been an issue and the mother carriers would have bought the RJ and operated it as a hub bypass that there would many more mainline pilots in the ranks. No they wouldn't be making the big dollars, but what a network to bargian with as a represented pilot and what a network to be feared from the competition.

I personally remember that ALPA pilots did not want the lower wages for the RJ and rejected the idea of them flying it. Then they were scared of the RJ and reacted with scope and thus killed creative ideas and route structures that could have been used to facilitate dominance in the mother carriers market share and route structure. There is a possibility that this will happen IF CAL and UAL pilots "go all the way" with the exclusion of the RJ codeshare within their systems, if corporate will allow it. Those tails are needed and that will bring the RJ and it's pilots into your fold. Should have been long ago, but I can see it happening in the future.

I'm still glad that I chose to stay, (25 years) and I'm happy for all who have taken the chance and moved on past the regional level. I am excited about what the future holds. I see along the way, as the airline industry evolves that some regionals may appear to some as under achievers. I used the word evolve, it's not over yet, just a slower pace that it could have been had those making the big decisions had a crystal ball. We are all doing the best we can with what we have and some companies have more available resources than others. By the time it's done evolving or should I say slowing down with big changes, we ALL may be working for just three or four carriers.
It's just the way it is today. Things are changing and the future is bright, especially with less less student pilot upstarts. Hang on the fat lady hasn't sung yet.

Originally Posted by Free Flyer (Post 893540)

I wasn't digging you. I was trying to simply say that maybe you didn't get hired by the airline that you were trying for. I'm not perfect, I applied to 3 airlines and got hired by 2, so it's not like I'm saying that I'm better than you. Relax.

Originally Posted by Free Flyer (Post 893540)

I don't know who you work for, Skywest or XJT. I don't think that we have the same union, but if for some chance we do, this is my main point of not staying at a regional. Look at ALPA, they take a cut of my pay to do their work to stay in business. If you take a 2% cut of a regional pilots pay (let's say $75K vs. mainline $180K), who do you think that ALPA will try to help out more? ALPA would rather help out the person that gives me more money. It's simple business.

That's my point. Why would you want to stay employed with a regional and in turn get less representation because you don't make as much money?

Originally Posted by pause (Post 893662)

Thread drift............
St. Louis sucks. Worst place I ever lived.
....now, back to the regular scheduled thread

Originally Posted by dosbo (Post 893535)

Eloquent justification for regional service, but it is still outsourced flying.

Even though I have been furloughed for the past two years I still dont regret the move. When I decided to get into the 121 career field it was still career worthy at the mainline level. As long as a large chunk of flying remains out sourced the career will suck, quality of service will suck, and passengers will be unhappy with the overall product no matter who is flying the aircraft.

As far as the Fat Lady singing, we will see what the results of the UniCon JCBA are. If they are positive I may get my career back, If negative it will be time for me to pack my bags and write off the last decade of effort and sacrifice then move on to something else. Perhaps I could manage a Burger King, it probably pays more anyway.

Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 893676)

Apology accepted.



I work for ASA. So YES, we are represented by the same union if you're represented by ALPA, as you said. And I'm glad you recognize (and even brag about) the inherent conflict of interest in that ALPA takes my money and takes your money, but helps you "more" because you pay more!

I will tell you this. If your JCBA eliminates RJ flying (putting us out of jobs) and ALPA's president signs said agreement, the upcoming DFR lawsuit will make the RJDC look like a Sunday School meeting. You can count on it. ALPA knows this, and your MEC leaders know this. So everything else is just chest thumping and ****ing in the wind.

As a side note, looking at the pay scale on this site, it's laughable that you would try to say the average mainline pay is $180 a year!!!

Originally Posted by boxer6 (Post 893709)

So its a one way street?
ALPA mainline can allow (or be forced to) outsourcing but when they would like it back that's at risk for a DFR lawsuit? ALPA national signed off on the outsource with no DFR threat so they can surely sign off on "insourcing". If what your saying is true you can be sure the mainline guys at UAL (and CAL) will jump ship from ALPA so fast you won't believe it. DFR issue disappears.

If you want to protect your flying advocate ASA to market your own at risk flying. The flying is not your flying...it is at risk and always been at risk. It just didn't seem so the past 10 years. This point has been made ad-nauseum.

Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 893676)

I will tell you this. If your JCBA eliminates RJ flying (putting us out of jobs) and ALPA's president signs said agreement, the upcoming DFR lawsuit will make the RJDC look like a Sunday School meeting. You can count on it. ALPA knows this, and your MEC leaders know this. So everything else is just chest thumping and ****ing in the wind.

Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 893776)

So weak. Please try harder next time on your third post here.
.
"ALPA mainline can allow outsourcing" (emphasis added). You allowed it! You gave it away. But now that you realized you made a mistake, you think you'll just take it back for nothing?!! Try that with a mortgage you got a high rate on. Or a car you bought for too much. Sorry, Jack, but the world doesn't work that way!!!

And you're asking the union I pay dues to to put me out of a job. That's a failure of DFR if I ever heard it!

Threatening to leave ALPA now? *YAWN*. Do it. Tomorrow. C-YA. Then we'll be one of the largest groups and they'll HAVE to do what we want! Be we all know you don't have the huevos to do it, so spare us the lame, self-serving threat.

Originally Posted by boxer6 (Post 894035)

You sound pretty worked up about this.

Ok, Lets play your scenario. What do you propose should happen to that flying being done under the UAL banner? If ALPA national ok's a freeze at the current level is that OK with you or is that a breach of DFR because you won't grow? What price do you think mainline pilots should pay to do the flying they once did? In a perfect world tell us what you think the end result should be.

I think you started the threats there, CPT. I only mentioned the leaving of ALPA because there is, from what I read and hear, a large contingency already at DAL and UAL ready to do it if and when necessary. Don't think that the conflict of interest in DFR between the mainline and regionals is lost on anybody. BTW, it isn't just the conflict of interest. Again, from what I hear, many are pretty angry over the FTDR's and the requirement of 1500hr legislation position.

Question, I wonder if you think ALPA will be a better and stronger union for you if DAL/UAL decide to join, say, APA.

Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 894563)

This site has a search feature. Just saying since you're new.

I've said it several times and I'll say it again. I predict that current number of 50+ RJs WILL be frozen/grandfathered. I think that's fair. What's NOT fair is your MEC's still official position that all 50+ RJ flying is going away.

Yes, it will be much better/stronger. The amount of support I currently get from National is so small, it couldn't get much worse. Plus, we won't have them taking our money and using it against us anymore. So I say don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

Originally Posted by Wiggam (Post 894604)

The only thing more insane then staying at "XYZ" regional, is defending said regional all hours of the day in online forums. Feeling nervous about your decision at all?? Go for a walk outside, it won't kill you!