Something to think about for newbies..
 

I posted this in another thread about a particular company, but I thought it might be worth reading by all the new folks applying for their first job. It pretty much applies to all.





I don't know GL, but the question of what is the upgrade time is .... well... stupid, stupid, stupid.

Since 2001 we have had a terrorist attack and idiots going nuts buying and selling oil. I THOUGHT I would upgrade in 12-18 months (with 5000+ hours, very plausible). Now, nearly FOUR years later, I just upgraded and that is only due to company growth... not people moving on.

Pick a company you can live with. I am NOT berating ANY company, but you MUST be willing to live there for several years if things go badly.

I chose a "bottom feeder" for three reasons: they had good contracts, I could live in base, and quick upgrade. Well, guess what! The quick upgrade didn't happen (and we are about the only place that IS upgrading). But for me, the plus side was job security (because of the contracts) and living in base. Put me at the same company and give me a two leg commute and I would have slit my wrists.

Arguably Horizon has the best contract. For me, living in Seattle would drive me nuts (as I am sure those Seattle folks would be driven nut living in south Texas). For me, giving up some pay was worth living in a Texas base. You MUST look at the whole picture. If you live in an outsation of a crappy company then maybe it could be good for you. But if you are looking at crappy pay, crappy work rules, and a crappy commute, you are crazy for taking the job (and that is true of any company, not just GL). Most people on here agree, pay and work rules at GL are very bad. IF, and that is a BIG IF, you live in Dickinson ND (not sure that is an outstation, but making a guess), and you are offered a job, it could be a good gig for you. But, if you live in Bar Harbor, ME, you will HATE life.

Look, I am not ANTI "bottom feeders" but you need to know what you are getting into. Crappy pay, crappy work rules, and crappy QOL will drive you nuts. If living in an outstaion base, paying 400 a month for rent or living with your girlfriend, making 20% less than everybody else is okay with you, it might work. But if you are taking the first offer you get, living three legs away, and living in somebody's basement, you will be miserable.


(Just so you know a bit about me, I came to my present company expecting to move on in 3-4 years. Now, having not moved on and due to my age, I am looking at making my regional the company I retire from since I don't want to stand hot reserve at 50. It isn't the greatest place to work... ask anyone. But, I live in base, can hold the line I want, and make enough to pay the bills. It isn't perfect, but because I made contingency plans if I was stuck here and knew what I was getting into, it isn't too bad either.)

Just keep in mind a lot of careers require you to pay your dues. Right now conditions are far less than ideal for airline pilots so things aren't good across the board. Those crappy airlines are still going to get staffed. If you can't get on anywhere else that may be your only option. If you get on with that ideal regional then you're lucky. A lot of indications point to the fact that the worst is over for this industry so upgrade times should be on the downhill soon.

FlyJSH, your 12-18 month upgrade expectation may have been realistic at the time you got hired but that is less than the industry average even in good times. You'd have been lucky to upgrade that quickly. Of course, 4 years used to be considered a long upgrade time at a regional! Your timing for employment just happened to be terrible. Did you ever consider Virgin America? It sounds like you have the time (I hear they're flexible on the PIC turbine) and they're still looking at upgrade times that would seem to meet your standards. Not to mention consistent growth over the next couple years (assuming all goes well). Of course, you'd have to move to NY or CA to avoid a commute. Being from Texas I can't imagine either of those sound too intriguing to you! Wouldn't blame you, I'm from CA.

You missed his point... STOP thinking about fast upgrades, go somewhere that you could work for more than just 3 years... An is not a 20% reduction in pay... GL is almost half the pay when compared to other regionals... If we as young pilots keep the mentality that we wont care about quality of life and what they pay us as long as we get the turbine PIC... guess what Great Lakes will not get a new contract and will continue to treat pilots like crap. This isn't the 90's... Major Carriers and Legacy carriers don't have their doors wide open for hire, and are waiting for you to have your 3,000TT and 1,000 Turbine PIC to hire you... There are is a surplus of pilots currently and there won't be a surplus anytime soon... Look at the way the airlines are doing business... Airline mergers = bad for pilots, less competition = less frequency, and this means less pilots... Is about time that you guys start thinking more than just about Aerodynamics when choosing a job... Maybe look at Politics, Economics, and Business. Look at the overall spectrum. Also 1,000 PIC is a way to separate the masses, the 4 year degree will also be a player.

Knowing what you are getting yourself into is half the battle. I agree with everything you said but we will still have pilots showing up to work at the bottom feeders who dont understand how poorly they are treated or how a professional pilot should be treated. Sometimes the bottom feeder makes sense to work at but in many cases the pilots either didnt know any better or were just thinking about an upgrade time.

I think FlyJsh offers great advice.

I'll throw in my own thoughts on this subject....


What it comes down to is there are two ways you can obtain the seniority to upgrade (usually around 50% of the way up the list)...

1) By the airline growing or..
2) Pilots above you leaving

Many pilots previously had the benefits of their airlines growing amazingly quickly. Doubling in size in 2 years allowed for, obviously, 2 year upgrades.. even if nobody left. They also had the benefits of lots of pilots leaving above them (some regionals had 1/4 of their list leaving per year)

These things aren't happening anymore. No regionals are going to be getting new 100-200 aircraft contracts. The days of those quick upgrades are over. That leaves only people leaving as a method for upgrading. Generally, people leave the worse regionals in more numbers than the better ones. But there is very little hiring going on right now. That means few are leaving, and there are few upgrades.

Whats this all mean? My guess is that upgrade times at all regionals are going to go up. The industry isn't expanding anymore. And when you hear that they have a "4 year" upgrade... thats for a pilot hired 4 years ago. It has zero bearing on a pilot hired today. Additionally, almost all of those "quick upgrades" from a few years ago... are still at their regional. They got in, upgraded quick, and got stuck. Now with 1000...2000...even 3000 hours RJ PIC time, they're still at their crappy regional suffering. Theres nowhere to go. If there isn't anywhere hiring, it doesn't matter how much jet PIC time you have. And when places really start to hire, these guys with 1000-3000 jet PIC are all going to have a lot of competition before they can get out. Think about how many RJ Captains are sitting around collecting Jet PIC time every day... we have an entire industry full of them.

Go somewhere that has a future and you can deal with the day to day life there, you may be there a while.

Just as important, going from ten legacy airlines to three means you can only have three bad interviews and you're done. (If you can even get three interviews)

That's bad for pilots.

FLYJSH has some great advice. I would like to add that the growth of regional airlines has stopped. And may even shrink in the next couple of years. Gone are the days of new airplanes showing up every day. There maybe replacement airframes but that's it.
There will always be a lucky few that will bypass alll the hard work and land a major job with 1000hrs. (Now 1500) but for the rest of us it will entail many many hours of on the job labor to move on. Pick an airline you can be happy with today. Like FLYJSH said, don't commute 3 legs for a quick upgrade.

I did not follow JSH's advice and I wish I had. I am stuck at a place I hate, and have recall rights at a place that is only somewhat better. I actually am close to upgrade but the place is so risky to be at with the operations there. There are so many LOI's and violations handed out at that company that you're in the minority if you don't get one in your time there. Plus they are firing a lot of people lately. Some of the people get fired for doing stupid stuff and some seem to get fired for getting completely fed up and refusing to be abused. I really wish I was at a place where I could make a comfortable living for the rest of my career if I needed to. Choose your employer wisely noobs.

SkyWest recently mentioned in their little newspaper, that they mail to all of the employees, that the average captain here has over 12,000hrs. They don't get a 1000 PIC and move on as you would think.

Same could be said of ASA, but the problem being is the senior guys that got here have stayed here and, for the most part, not moved on because it would be a major step backwards for them monetarily...I'm sure this could be correlated to almost any other airline as well with 2008 being the complete debacle that it was...hopefully things will pick up somewhere between now and my retirement date of 2048....( god i think i just puked a little )

I think you forget many of us coming into the regional game are coming from jobs that pay per hour, and those hours are an on-demand basis. IE flight instructors who might have a great AUG and make $4,000 that month, but also make $400 all of Dec. Also have no benefits, pay for plane tickets, and are ready to move out of their home towns/college towns. Or in my case jump pilots with seasonal work, and no benefits, and sick of piston airplanes. You are saying don't take this or that, when your at that point you would rather take anything else.

There are many opinions on how to be successful with this career. I personally know guys at a many airlines, bottom feeders all the way up to some top tier places, and I know guys who “did everything right” and are sitting on furlough or not where they ever wanted to be.
The only part I would take issue with is to totally dismiss upgrade time. I know guys who have been in the biz for as long as me, 8 years, and have ZERO pic turbine time. Ouch. Sure there are jobs that you can get that don’t need TPIC, even Delta was hiring pilots with zero PIC during this last little wave they went through, but on the whole, it’s required dues for most of us. So you need to look at everything, in a rough priority order;

1. Bases
2. Pay
3. Benefits, - health, 401k matching?
4. Work rules - duty rigs? JA's? Commuter policy if you're going to do that
5. Upgrade time
6. Company Culture
7. Career-ability (made up that word) If everything goes south, can I stay here and make a career and be content?
8. Union? (even if there is a union on property it can be toothless too or the other way, too combative and you don't get anywhere either)

Each individual will weigh each one a little differently, so focus on the company who is hiring that works the best for what's important for you.

Also, on the regional level keep to the common sense rules;

1. Keep your overhead as low as possible! Even when you upgrade. The transtion from RJ CA to Main Line FO can be rough. It may take a few years to replace that RJ CA pay. (I type this shaking my head in disgust)
2. At any airline it holds true, but on the regional level, as absurd as it is to say, LIVE IN BASE! As stated in previous posts, your QOL will be SO much better, especially with the games airlines will play with your schedule. It’s nice to see a flight cancled, or changed and think, “oh well, guess I’ll head home and stop at the Home Depot to finish that little project…” Can’t beat it.
3. Don’t buy a house (you will most likely move, multiple times, and if you turn your home into a rental, being a land lord can be frustrating when you’re a long way away) This way you can respect #2 above. And in many markets, FL, MI, NV, AZ parts of CA what's the point?
4. If you’re single, stay that way (yea I know this is a tough one, whatever)
5. If you do get married, I sure hope your other half is pulling down a good salary, because making it on Regional FO pay is tough, Regional CA pay is passable. Add in the student loans though and your back to tough...
6. Network and always be nice, you just never know...

Good luck, roll the dice…

(and sports fans, feel free to add to that list of "rules" for successful Regional Pilot living. And no, don't steal the light bulbs, toilet paper or towels from the hotel rooms.)

Okay, so let's look at pay. My first year I took home about 1000 per month after taxes, insurance, and uniform allotment. Yes, I had insurance, but I paid a good chunk for it. Admittedly, we do have a new TA, and I am sure it is a HUGE improvement for me, but it isn't like hitting the lottery.

I did flight instructing, hauled boxes, air ambulance work, corporate, and some contract work, but the first two years at my regional were by far the worst.... and I KNEW what I was getting into.

Sick of pistons? geez. In years to come you will judge the planes you flew by things like the quality of the seat, how quickly it heated up in the winter or cooled in the summer, and if it had decent cup holders. Other than that all that counts is the pay and schedule. Give me the same QOL, good job security, and the same pay, and I will fly a 150. I would say I'd miss air conditioning, but since the Saab's is so bad, being able to open the windows sounds pretty good.

Probably the job I enjoyed most was moving boxes in a Caravan, and I got it right after instructing. I worked at an outstation, did two legs a day, only saw my boss twice each year, got to wear shorts and a polo shirt, had every holiday off, and paid the bills. No long trips and every Saturday night I was out getting slapped by a few women. A similar job now starts around 35k with benefits. That's a whole lot better than 20k flying 90 hours per month.

Look, this isn't a hobby, it is a job. Yeah, I still like to fly, but my ideal schedule is two legs per night, three nights per week. Any more than that is just labor. It isn't about what you fly, where your hotel is located, or having people in airports ask you where baggage claim is located. It is about pay and QOL.

Not to be a jerk but you just sound bitter. I would have stuck somewhere like Wiggins, got the pic turbine time for 35k/year and moved on, why you downgraded to Lakes is beyond me.

Not to be a jerk, but you sound like an immature pilot who can't wait to get out of piston airplanes to play airline pilot. You do realize that you will get sick of flying turboprops too, right?

FlyJSH, is not bitter. He has some great advice that you just don't want to hear. You want someone to tell you going from flying jumpers to flying for GL will make your life better. It will not. Only your logbook will improve. Your experience there will qualify you for better jobs, but realize that you are not the only one at GL or any other airline looking to get a flying job that has decent pay.

good thread all around. I definitely appreciate when you more experienced guys out there share advice in a neutral light. Noobs like myself got plenty to learn when it comes to this business-we'd rather hear it in advance from you guys that find out the real hard way later on.

btw flying is a career we've all embarked on hopefully because we are passionate about aviation. There've been plenty of days where I grew weary of instructing but at the end of the day I still enjoyed flying and helping others along in their journey. My QOL was good enough that my goal for the next level is to keep it that way. Get paid what I am worth, to some degree. No steps backwards. I couldn't imagine taking less money than I currently make and have a worse schedule with tremendously increased responsibility (i.e. flying paying pax around versus flying 1 student around). Why should any pilot settle for less than that? I'm not even through my first airline ground school yet and I'm already seeing how much abuse management can throw around. Yikes.

Veteran regional guys out there, keep it coming. We need to hear it.

It sounds like FLYRJSH has great advice. Here's my advice! Great Lakes sucks at best. I was there during some of the best hiring of the decade so I was lucky and got out in 4 years. I took advantage of them as much as they did me. I took two type ratings and a checkairmen letter away from the deal and made the best of my time there by meeting new friends and learning how to be a pilot.
These days, I wouldnt tell my worst enemy to go to GLA because there is no near future hope of escaping.

The airplanes are old and falling apart. (terrible maintenance and lack of resources doesnt help) The entire management puts safety on the back burner and treats long time loyal employees like garbage, especially gate agents and the like.

I will try to find a letter I wrote to the director of operations after multiple maintenance and safety issues I encountered over a period of time and post it for you on here. It fell on deaf ears, obviously. If you decide to go to GLA, dont say we didnt warn you and dont get on here and cry because you hate your life and are stuck in a training contract. Just learn how to bend over and take it, because that is what working for lakes is all about. Enjoy!

I struggle to understand the guys who defend making flight instructing a career, or linger there any longer than necessary with respect to the industry’s hiring trend, unless of course you absolutely LOVE doing it, then I have a great deal of respect for you. But for most of us, we enjoyed it, did what we had to do to move on, had the long days, one after the other, but the guys who can’t take the pay cut from their 141 flight instructor job, you have really painted yourself into a corner. Job for job, I would much rather roll up to my (insert regional aircraft), go through my preflight, acceptance check, program the box, and then sit and sip my coffee while the FA and pax get settled. Do that for a few legs a day, over a few days on a trip and then go home. No fuss no muss. Not to mention, it’s a lot easier to make the transition to a “major’ (cough cough, ah-hem) airline from a regional flying a turbine around, than flying the nicest equipment at any flight school. Not saying it’s impossible, but you better have some mind blowing connections.

The gist of my note here is not to knock flight instructors at all, especially the career ones, again, much love, but to say, don’t pass on a regional job cause of the pay. Keep driving that car from college, live with a roommate, keep the expenses low, and plow into the regional job knowing all the risks but staying optimistic about it, that you will be the one who get’s in, upgrades, and moves on. It does happen and will happen. Will you be the one?

Post script, did it happen for me? Not really, but I’m tracking just fine and I do know enough pilots who it did happen too. Fly safe, be positive with everybody you meet and opportunities will come your way.

He isn't bitter and he doesn't work for GLA... I work with this guy and he is positive and upbeat all of the time. He is just offering a realistic point of view which may not sit well with people but at least its the truth. I too went from hauling boxes to a regional and took a substantial pay/QOL cut in doing so... but truth be told I would have made the same decisions if I had to do it all over again.

right but I have seasonal work, spend 3 months of the year unemployed, and do not make much money. My point is regionals can be a HUGE pay jump for some people. I know some people flying jumpers who make $10/load and do that full time, needless to say they are living on 15k/yr, and are happy and budgeted for it. However going to somewhere like Eagle means 25k first year and 30k second, trust me they are not complaining at all. Esp those who are 23, single, low debt, college grads, and ready to move on in life.

As was said, I do not work for Lakes. I quit flying the Caravan when it looked like the company was going to be sold. I could have stayed on, but on a resume 2000 hours of turbine SEL isn't worth any more than 1000 Turbine SEL. In the seven years I worked for the air ambulance company flying a C421, we went from 7 fixed wing and 13 helo bases down to just two. I left about 6-8 months before my base closed, and I would have been unemployed.


This year I will finally make as much as I did in the 421 (four years ago), and things seem to be improving. That said, I do keep an eye on Mountain Air, Skydive Deland, Vintage Props and Jets (forgot, they went belly up :( ), and a couple others (nothing against Wiggins, but they fly where it is COLD!). You never know when things will change like a terrorist attack, speculators doubling the price of oil, or the mainlines miraculously taking back ALL of their flying. So you gotta have a contingency plan.

Talk about irony, but this is sounding a lot like the "move to a legacy and start over or stay senior at a regional" debate.

I know some people at Deland, shoot me a PM I might be able to help. Flying jumpers full time with a turbine will most likely max out at about 1k/week. so 50k a year is the max, if your on salary, per load will always work out to being less in the big picture.

Thanks Rick, but I am good for now.

As long as there are 300 hour wonders out there, willing to sleep under mom and dad's roof, this problem will forever continue. We are our own worst enemies. Second only to those people who claim the "shortage is right around the corner."

You mean it's not? :rolleyes: Oh, the Humanity!

Wow, wish that could be me...
I worked graveyards at 7-11 to help put me through college and did a tour of duty at Lowes while in flight school.
So, even though I've been "paying the dues" for a while now, I have no hindsight regarding change in my career path. I just hope we can all unite as a GROUP and get better pay for what we do. Going to GLA is like slu*ting yourself out for a piece of bazooka gum (the flavor lasts for about a minute then its gone).

I worked my way through college too... thats why it took me 6 years. I am still paying my dues too. Right now it sucks... I try to view this period of time as a residency/journeyman's apprenticeship... stay positive because it will get better in time and keep in mind that it could always be worse.

Been there done that... I worked 6 months on and 6 off... I know how it goes. After 2.5 years at my current employer I will make 30k... I have quite a few friends at places like Eagle, Air Wis, PSA, and Horizon that complain just as much if not more than those friends of mine at Colgan, CommutAir, and Gulfstream. Quite simply.. the regionals suck.

The plus side for pilots is that if you get hired by one of them, you can hopefully have a stable career... who knows.

You couldn't follow JSH's advice because after Gojet wouldn't hire you, you were stuck with only Great lakes. I'm surprised that you keep putting down your employer when they took you in with very little experience. Sounds to me like you think they owe you something. You knew it was going to be bad and yet you went. There is a difference between giving advice and complaining about your situation.