I posted this in another thread about a particular company, but I thought it might be worth reading by all the new folks applying for their first job. It pretty much applies to all.





I don't know GL, but the question of what is the upgrade time is .... well... stupid, stupid, stupid.

Since 2001 we have had a terrorist attack and idiots going nuts buying and selling oil. I THOUGHT I would upgrade in 12-18 months (with 5000+ hours, very plausible). Now, nearly FOUR years later, I just upgraded and that is only due to company growth... not people moving on.

Pick a company you can live with. I am NOT berating ANY company, but you MUST be willing to live there for several years if things go badly.

I chose a "bottom feeder" for three reasons: they had good contracts, I could live in base, and quick upgrade. Well, guess what! The quick upgrade didn't happen (and we are about the only place that IS upgrading). But for me, the plus side was job security (because of the contracts) and living in base. Put me at the same company and give me a two leg commute and I would have slit my wrists.

Arguably Horizon has the best contract. For me, living in Seattle would drive me nuts (as I am sure those Seattle folks would be driven nut living in south Texas). For me, giving up some pay was worth living in a Texas base. You MUST look at the whole picture. If you live in an outsation of a crappy company then maybe it could be good for you. But if you are looking at crappy pay, crappy work rules, and a crappy commute, you are crazy for taking the job (and that is true of any company, not just GL). Most people on here agree, pay and work rules at GL are very bad. IF, and that is a BIG IF, you live in Dickinson ND (not sure that is an outstation, but making a guess), and you are offered a job, it could be a good gig for you. But, if you live in Bar Harbor, ME, you will HATE life.

Look, I am not ANTI "bottom feeders" but you need to know what you are getting into. Crappy pay, crappy work rules, and crappy QOL will drive you nuts. If living in an outstaion base, paying 400 a month for rent or living with your girlfriend, making 20% less than everybody else is okay with you, it might work. But if you are taking the first offer you get, living three legs away, and living in somebody's basement, you will be miserable.


(Just so you know a bit about me, I came to my present company expecting to move on in 3-4 years. Now, having not moved on and due to my age, I am looking at making my regional the company I retire from since I don't want to stand hot reserve at 50. It isn't the greatest place to work... ask anyone. But, I live in base, can hold the line I want, and make enough to pay the bills. It isn't perfect, but because I made contingency plans if I was stuck here and knew what I was getting into, it isn't too bad either.)

 

Just keep in mind a lot of careers require you to pay your dues. Right now conditions are far less than ideal for airline pilots so things aren't good across the board. Those crappy airlines are still going to get staffed. If you can't get on anywhere else that may be your only option. If you get on with that ideal regional then you're lucky. A lot of indications point to the fact that the worst is over for this industry so upgrade times should be on the downhill soon.

FlyJSH, your 12-18 month upgrade expectation may have been realistic at the time you got hired but that is less than the industry average even in good times. You'd have been lucky to upgrade that quickly. Of course, 4 years used to be considered a long upgrade time at a regional! Your timing for employment just happened to be terrible. Did you ever consider Virgin America? It sounds like you have the time (I hear they're flexible on the PIC turbine) and they're still looking at upgrade times that would seem to meet your standards. Not to mention consistent growth over the next couple years (assuming all goes well). Of course, you'd have to move to NY or CA to avoid a commute. Being from Texas I can't imagine either of those sound too intriguing to you! Wouldn't blame you, I'm from CA.

 

You missed his point... STOP thinking about fast upgrades, go somewhere that you could work for more than just 3 years... An is not a 20% reduction in pay... GL is almost half the pay when compared to other regionals... If we as young pilots keep the mentality that we wont care about quality of life and what they pay us as long as we get the turbine PIC... guess what Great Lakes will not get a new contract and will continue to treat pilots like crap. This isn't the 90's... Major Carriers and Legacy carriers don't have their doors wide open for hire, and are waiting for you to have your 3,000TT and 1,000 Turbine PIC to hire you... There are is a surplus of pilots currently and there won't be a surplus anytime soon... Look at the way the airlines are doing business... Airline mergers = bad for pilots, less competition = less frequency, and this means less pilots... Is about time that you guys start thinking more than just about Aerodynamics when choosing a job... Maybe look at Politics, Economics, and Business. Look at the overall spectrum. Also 1,000 PIC is a way to separate the masses, the 4 year degree will also be a player.

 

Knowing what you are getting yourself into is half the battle. I agree with everything you said but we will still have pilots showing up to work at the bottom feeders who dont understand how poorly they are treated or how a professional pilot should be treated. Sometimes the bottom feeder makes sense to work at but in many cases the pilots either didnt know any better or were just thinking about an upgrade time.

 

I think FlyJsh offers great advice.

 

I'll throw in my own thoughts on this subject....


What it comes down to is there are two ways you can obtain the seniority to upgrade (usually around 50% of the way up the list)...

1) By the airline growing or..
2) Pilots above you leaving

Many pilots previously had the benefits of their airlines growing amazingly quickly. Doubling in size in 2 years allowed for, obviously, 2 year upgrades.. even if nobody left. They also had the benefits of lots of pilots leaving above them (some regionals had 1/4 of their list leaving per year)

These things aren't happening anymore. No regionals are going to be getting new 100-200 aircraft contracts. The days of those quick upgrades are over. That leaves only people leaving as a method for upgrading. Generally, people leave the worse regionals in more numbers than the better ones. But there is very little hiring going on right now. That means few are leaving, and there are few upgrades.

Whats this all mean? My guess is that upgrade times at all regionals are going to go up. The industry isn't expanding anymore. And when you hear that they have a "4 year" upgrade... thats for a pilot hired 4 years ago. It has zero bearing on a pilot hired today. Additionally, almost all of those "quick upgrades" from a few years ago... are still at their regional. They got in, upgraded quick, and got stuck. Now with 1000...2000...even 3000 hours RJ PIC time, they're still at their crappy regional suffering. Theres nowhere to go. If there isn't anywhere hiring, it doesn't matter how much jet PIC time you have. And when places really start to hire, these guys with 1000-3000 jet PIC are all going to have a lot of competition before they can get out. Think about how many RJ Captains are sitting around collecting Jet PIC time every day... we have an entire industry full of them.

Go somewhere that has a future and you can deal with the day to day life there, you may be there a while.

 

Just as important, going from ten legacy airlines to three means you can only have three bad interviews and you're done. (If you can even get three interviews)

That's bad for pilots.

 

FLYJSH has some great advice. I would like to add that the growth of regional airlines has stopped. And may even shrink in the next couple of years. Gone are the days of new airplanes showing up every day. There maybe replacement airframes but that's it.
There will always be a lucky few that will bypass alll the hard work and land a major job with 1000hrs. (Now 1500) but for the rest of us it will entail many many hours of on the job labor to move on. Pick an airline you can be happy with today. Like FLYJSH said, don't commute 3 legs for a quick upgrade.

 

I did not follow JSH's advice and I wish I had. I am stuck at a place I hate, and have recall rights at a place that is only somewhat better. I actually am close to upgrade but the place is so risky to be at with the operations there. There are so many LOI's and violations handed out at that company that you're in the minority if you don't get one in your time there. Plus they are firing a lot of people lately. Some of the people get fired for doing stupid stuff and some seem to get fired for getting completely fed up and refusing to be abused. I really wish I was at a place where I could make a comfortable living for the rest of my career if I needed to. Choose your employer wisely noobs.

 

SkyWest recently mentioned in their little newspaper, that they mail to all of the employees, that the average captain here has over 12,000hrs. They don't get a 1000 PIC and move on as you would think.