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CO-Pilot time
I am not in the airlines so forgive me if this is a dumb question.
When a First Officer flies the plane even though the Captain signed for it he logs PIC because he is the person at the controls right? With that being said and knowing people are at the regionals most of the time to build time and move on, do you run into a Captain that hogs all the PIC often? Or is it pretty standard to swap back and forth? |
The First Officer or "Co Pilot" is never PIC and can never log PIC time. The Captain hogs the PIC every single flight.
The only exception is if the Captain is not capable of performing his duties such as dead or nearly dead. |
Originally Posted by Duksrule
(Post 968972)
I am not in the airlines so forgive me if this is a dumb question.
When a First Officer flies the plane even though the Captain signed for it he logs PIC because he is the person at the controls right? With that being said and knowing people are at the regionals most of the time to build time and move on, do you run into a Captain that hogs all the PIC often? Or is it pretty standard to swap back and forth? FO's generally only hold an SIC type rating and therefor can not log PIC when acting as "sole manipulator of the controls"...that would require a PIC type rating for that airplane. Anyways, airlines for hiring purposes only consider PIC time as that time you are the "PIC of record", that is the Captain as designated on the Flight Release by the company. |
Originally Posted by usmc-sgt
(Post 968975)
The First Officer or "Co Pilot" is never PIC and can never log PIC time. The Captain hogs the PIC every single flight.
The only exception is if the Captain is not capable of performing his duties such as dead or nearly dead. |
Originally Posted by missingbite
(Post 968978)
Unless the company you fly for types you in the plane, it doesn't matter if the Captain is dead or not, you can only log SIC. Someone please correct me if I am wrong but you can't log PIC unless you are typed.
If the PIC is dead, who the heck is in command?...I'd log it, put it a giant asterisk next to it and then have a good story for the interview. I wouldn't however put on my application or resume. |
BS. When the Captain has the fish and keels over you best believe I'll log PIC for that portion of the flight. Who is in command now? You; or maybe Ted Stryker. Whoever it is would log PIC.
Sure, you wouldn't be legal to sign for the plane. And sure It'll look funny in the logbook with 1 hour PIC with no PIC type. They'll drill you in the interview and you'll come back with a heck of a story. Or maybe i'm totally wrong. |
The only way the FO can "Legally" log PIC time is if he already has a PIC type rating and is the sole manipulator of the controls. If that's the case, he has a legal right to log the time as PIC.
However, it has been discussed her extensively that not a single airline would accept it. They only accept time that was PIC when you were the captain. Therefore, while you could legally log it, there would be no point since no other airline would accept it. What the FAA allows you to log and what the airlines accept are two completely different things. I've sometimes thought I should keep 2 logbooks - one for FAA times and one for Airline times. |
Originally Posted by Duksrule
(Post 968972)
I am not in the airlines so forgive me if this is a dumb question.
When a First Officer flies the plane even though the Captain signed for it he logs PIC because he is the person at the controls right? With that being said and knowing people are at the regionals most of the time to build time and move on, do you run into a Captain that hogs all the PIC often? Or is it pretty standard to swap back and forth? -- At least that's the way I interpret the regulations -- |
I called the Long Beach FSDO about this two weeks ago. Except for currrency requirements and time required in pursuit of ratings your log book is yours to keep as you want. That being said, the FAA expects a pilot flying as a first officer on an aircraft in which he holds an unrestricted type rating on to log the time that he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. In reading the regulation, it is unambiguous. An ailrine can weigh the time as they choose, but there are hundreds of American pilots flying in Asia as Captains that were formally first officers flying in the US.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights- (i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate; (ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft; (iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or (iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided— (A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate; |
To keep this from getting confusing...
Even if you have a full type rating in the plane that you are flying, if you are not the Captain and the one that signed for the airplane you NEVER log pilot in command time. IF the Captain is not able to continue his duties as PIC (such as he dies) then you are the only one left and have assumed command and can log that time as PIC but id recommend putting a note in the comments. As a first officer you log total time and SIC time for the entire duration of the flight regardless of who was on the controls. |
the FAA expects a pilot flying as a first officer on an aircraft in which he holds an unrestricted type rating on to log the time that he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. |
Originally Posted by Coto Pilot
(Post 969067)
there are hundreds of American pilots flying in Asia as Captains that were formally first officers flying in the US.
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Even if you have a full type rating in the plane that you are flying, if you are not the Captain and the one that signed for the airplane you NEVER log pilot in command time. IF the Captain is not able to continue his duties as PIC (such as he dies) then you are the only one left and have assumed command and can log that time as PIC but id recommend putting a note in the comments.
As a first officer you log total time and SIC time for the entire duration of the flight regardless of who was on the controls. What are you basing this on? I have copied the FAR which is very clear. I have been hired by seven airlines over the years, 5 of them majors and this has never been brought up. The FAA is the governing authority, not a possible future employer. When you complete an application, they will have you place your time where they want it which is fine, but this is how it should be logged. Please site your reference. |
you guys are funny.
1 hour PIC turbine + a cool story does not usually = minimum 1000 hours PIC turbine. semantics. |
Originally Posted by Coto Pilot
(Post 969100)
What are you basing this on? I have copied the FAR which is very clear. I have been hired by seven airlines over the years, 5 of them majors and this has never been brought up. The FAA is the governing authority, not a possible future employer. When you complete an application, they will have you place your time where they want it which is fine, but this is how it should be logged. Please site your reference.
When you apply to Southwest just make sure you subtract this time to meet their definition of what PIC turbine really is 2 PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered. |
Originally Posted by usmc-sgt
(Post 969128)
I give up. You are correct. Log time as a first officer however you would like. Although the FAA is the governing authority they are useless when it comes to how your logbook stacks up for a job. A future employer is exactly who matters when it comes to whats in your logbook.
When you apply to Southwest just make sure you subtract this time to meet their definition of what PIC turbine really is She we argue about when one should log actual next? Can you log that time as actual, even though you're on the ground? |
Originally Posted by usmc-sgt
(Post 969128)
I give up. You are correct. Log time as a first officer however you would like. Although the FAA is the governing authority they are useless when it comes to how your logbook stacks up for a job. A future employer is exactly who matters when it comes to whats in your logbook.
When you apply to Southwest just make sure you subtract this time to meet their definition of what PIC turbine really is Do not confuse resume/application time with logbook time the two can be different and the companies accepting resumes do not expect them to match...unless you're claiming MORE time than is in your logbook. |
Originally Posted by lolwut
(Post 969153)
Speaking of which, if you're driving around an airport and the RVR is so low, you turn to your fellow pilot and say "I CANT SEE ANYTHING! Tell tower we're stopping the plane!"
Can you log that time as actual, even though you're on the ground? |
Originally Posted by blastoff
(Post 969158)
Totally untrue, and has been beaten to death in this forum...pretty shocking this came from a Moderator posting several posts below the actual 14CFR61 verbiage. If you have a PIC Type rating and are sole manipulator, you can log PIC. You do not, however, count that time on your SWA application...but the FAA is interested in that time for meeting the requirements toward an ATP.
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Originally Posted by 5ontheglide
(Post 969110)
you guys are funny.
1 hour PIC turbine + a cool story does not usually = minimum 1000 hours PIC turbine. semantics. Good point. But having 1000 TPIC can get you an interview where you would get to tell the cool story of 1 hour TPIC and NOT being PIC typed. In which case, they wouldn't care about that bizarre 1 hour anyway. |
Originally Posted by usmc-sgt
(Post 969070)
To keep this from getting confusing...
Even if you have a full type rating in the plane that you are flying, if you are not the Captain and the one that signed for the airplane you NEVER log pilot in command time. IF the Captain is not able to continue his duties as PIC (such as he dies) then you are the only one left and have assumed command and can log that time as PIC but id recommend putting a note in the comments. As a first officer you log total time and SIC time for the entire duration of the flight regardless of who was on the controls. Actually, FAA legal interpretation states that even WITHOUT a full type (but having qualified in the seat through a 121 training program), an SIC (with SIC type) can LOG PIC time during that time when he is the SOLE MANIPULATOR of the controls. That said, as previously mentioned, that time is generally NOT considered "valid" PIC time by the airlines. February 9, 1999 Bill Carpenter 12808 E. Pacific Drive, #302 Aurora, Colorado 80014 Dear Mr. Carpenter: Thank you for your letter of January 25, 1999, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) time and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) You first ask whether it would be proper under FAR 61.51(g) for a properly qualified SIC to log instrument flight time flown during instrument conditions while serving as the SIC in Part 121 operations on an aircraft that requires two crewmembers. The answer is yes. As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions," you would log that time as SIC flown in instrument conditions. Naturally, the PIC logs the time as PIC flown in instrument conditions. You then ask if, for the purposes of maintaining instrument currency, an instrument approach on the above flight flown by the PIC can be logged as an instrument approach by the SIC. The answer is no. As the SIC you have not "performed" the approach as contemplated by FAR 61.57(c) because you were not the sole manipulator of the controls during the approach. Lastly, you present the following scenario: under a Part 121 operation the air carrier has designated a pilot and a copilot as required by FAR 121.385(c). The pilot is the authorized PIC and the copilot is the authorized SIC. The PIC is also the company check airman. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. You ask whether the SIC can log PIC time for that portion of the flight in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight. The answer is yes. There is a distinction between acting as pilot in command and logging of pilot in command time. "Pilot in command," as defined in FAR 1.1, "means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time." FAR 61.51(e) is a flight-time logging regulation, which only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight experience: 2 (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational private or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person -- (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated_ (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft: or (iii) Except for a recreational pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. (2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate. While it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. If the pilot is designated as PIC by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385(c), that person is PIC for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft. The pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated may also log that flight as PIC. It is important to remember that we are dealing with logging of flight time only for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the SIC is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC under Part 121. I hope this satisfactorily answers your questions. If we can be of further assistance, please contact us. D. Brent Pope Attorney, ANM-7H |
This is getting 21 (now 22) posts longer than it needs to be.
How about this...I personally have never met a single part 121 first officer who is typed in the airplane they are a first officer in who has logged a single minute of pilot in command time. Can it be done? Sure, why not..log whatever youd like. Will that time be worth more than the ink its written with? Not likely. As for the moderator comment..I am not a moderator here because of my vast knowledge of all facets of aviation and the ins and outs of our FARs. I did not sit in front of a panel or even have an interview. I am just a guy who volunteers around here to keep this forum clean of terms of service violations. If you insult another member, post something inappropriate, or just generally become a nuisance I will moderate. I am wrong quite often...just ask my wife. |
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 969172)
Good point. But having 1000 TPIC can get you an interview where you would get to tell the cool story of 1 hour TPIC and NOT being PIC typed. In which case, they wouldn't care about that bizarre 1 hour anyway.
Desperate Job Seeker: Im glad you asked, 'cause its a doozy of a story. See, back when I was a young handsome FO flying the trans-con, my bright captain (who had obviously never seen airplane) decided to order the fish...;) |
One consideration... Should you choose to log the time (as described/debated in this thread), that might help you if you are later employed by a Part 91 or 135 operator and you're trying to get insurance coverage.
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I remember a passenger calling me (the F/O) the Captain's "little helper".
I personally log PIC time when the Captain goes to the lav. |
Originally Posted by FuriousG
(Post 969022)
BS. When the Captain has the fish and keels over you best believe I'll log PIC for that portion of the flight. Who is in command now? You; or maybe Ted Stryker. Whoever it is would log PIC.
Sure, you wouldn't be legal to sign for the plane. And sure It'll look funny in the logbook with 1 hour PIC with no PIC type. They'll drill you in the interview and you'll come back with a heck of a story. Or maybe i'm totally wrong. |
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
(Post 969164)
You are incorrect, sir. This may be true in a king air/part 91 world, but in the 121 world, the one who signs is the PIC, no question about it. Every pilot at Southwest has a 737 PIC type, including FO's. The FO never signs or logs PIC, because the "C" in PIC is never met.
Never flew part 91. In fact the bulk of my time is Military Heavy Time, which could start another 25 page debate on how to log. If you took more than a cursory view of the argument, "logging" PIC is different from "acting" as PIC. A quite lengthy FSDO explanation has already been re-posted on this thread that I suggest you review before attempting to argue further. We've seen this thread too many times to simply accept your "shoot from the hip" point of view on the "C" in PIC. The PIC column in your logbook has nothing to do with who was in command...in fact, it's a bit of a misnomer; the column on your employment application probably does require "command", it's important to know the difference. Part 121 does not govern your logbook. Half the guys in 121 no longer keep a logbook.
Originally Posted by usmc-sgt
(Post 969182)
As for the moderator comment..I am not a moderator here because of my vast knowledge of all facets of aviation and the ins and outs of our FARs. I did not sit in front of a panel or even have an interview. I am just a guy who volunteers around here to keep this forum clean of terms of service violations. If you insult another member, post something inappropriate, or just generally become a nuisance I will moderate. I am wrong quite often...just ask my wife.
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There's also a difference between "Legal" and "This is a good idea," just to be clear. I just hate blanket statements that you "can not" and "never" that are misleading.
Part 2 of the argument: How are the Regionals upgrading 100's of Captains a year that don't have the requisite PIC time for an ATP? I know they're counting their SIC time as "PIC Time" towards it (i.e. every other leg), even though the pilots are not logging it that way in their Logbooks...what is the legal citation for this or is it covered in Ops Specs? |
What it comes down to is logging a few hours of PIC isn't going to change anything.
You're either going to get that dream job with 300 hours TPIC or 3000 hours of it. Nobody is sitting around waiting to 1000 and then getting called by a major. You're either like most people who have a job supplying them with all the turbine PIC they could ever need and just waiting for the major to call.... or you are one of the few who has some short of amazing item on your resume or connection at the company that you'll get called no matter how little TPIC you have. Log it the legit way and you'll get a job when you get it. |
Where the heck is Duksrule? Its his fault..he started it.
See what you started! |
Originally Posted by FuriousG
(Post 969022)
BS. When the Captain has the fish and keels over you best believe I'll log PIC for that portion of the flight. Who is in command now? You; or maybe Ted Stryker. Whoever it is would log PIC.
Sure, you wouldn't be legal to sign for the plane. And sure It'll look funny in the logbook with 1 hour PIC with no PIC type. They'll drill you in the interview and you'll come back with a heck of a story. Or maybe i'm totally wrong. Just like student pilots log PIC while soloing. |
Technically...
An FO who is fully typed in the aircraft can log sole manipulator PIC. I also cannot find any legal reason why someone with only an SIC type could not do the same although that seems much more open to interpretation. But in the US this time would be useless for airline hiring purposes, and if you did not make a clear distinction between your sole-man PIC and your real PIC an employer would assume that you were trying to misrepresent yourself..buh-bye! Yes, it's legal but if you want to do it you had probably better log it in a separate column. |
WOW..... really guys the distinction is clear... what you can log and maybe what you should log are two different animals. Can you.. more than likely yes... should you? depends on the type of operation. Personally I have flown 91, 91k, 135, 121 and military and I have always adhered to the in command idea for PIC time... but I certainly understand that other side of the argument for logging of time. In the end, log what you want, be able to explain it and live with the chips falling where they may.
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 969276)
No, you're right.
Just like student pilots log PIC while soloing. |
Reading all these different responses to whether or not a First Officer, typed rated or not, can ever log PIC time in a 121 operation begs me to wonder what everyone logbook looks like! I'm sure most of you all were flight instructors at one time and taught FAR's. The person, the non-airline pilot, who asked the original question is probably scared out of their wits reading about how there’s no clear consensus among actual airline pilot about whether or not they can log "pilot or co-pilot" time.
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Originally Posted by missingbite
(Post 969193)
Let me guess, you would have the flight attendant help you pull the Captain out of your seat too right? You are right, that you are totally wrong.
All kidding aside, I take this all as a merely hypothetical discussion as what you could log. It is pretty clear what you should be logging in the US 121 world, if you wish to ever pass an interview with another carrier. |
Originally Posted by jayray2
(Post 969310)
I'm not sure what you are saying. This is totally different from the discussion at hand. I'm pretty sure no one is going to question logging PIC time as a student while soloing. It is an accepted practice and the FAA legal also backs it up.
Just my opinion. I would not log sol-man PIC in 121, but if I were an FO and the CA became incapacitated I would log that PIC like someone said, with a big asterisks so I could tell the story later at an interview. Maybe they wouldn't hire me for logging bogus PIC :rolleyes: In which case I probably didn't want to work there anyway. |
So I'll toss a grenade and run away. In the 121 world, some say it is legal to log PIC if you are the PIC typed and the sole manipulator. (What FO is PIC typed at a regional anyway?)
What about the Fed ride that captains must take. Without the blessing, can you still log it in 121? (1) A pilot in command must— (i) Perform the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a check pilot; and (ii) In addition, if a qualifying pilot in command is completing initial or upgrade training specified in §121.424, be observed in the performance of prescribed duties by an FAA inspector during at least one flight leg which includes a takeoff and landing. During the time that a qualifying pilot in command is acquiring the operating experience in paragraphs (c)(l) (i) and (ii) of this section, a check pilot who is also serving as the pilot in command must occupy a pilot station. However, in the case of a transitioning pilot in command the check pilot serving as pilot in command may occupy the observer's seat, if the transitioning pilot has made at least two takeoffs and landings in the type airplane used, and has satisfactorily demonstrated to the check pilot that he is qualified to perform the duties of a pilot in command of that type of airplane. (2) A second in command pilot must perform the duties of a second in command under the supervision of an appropriately qualified check pilot. |
Originally Posted by Swedish Blender
(Post 969671)
So I'll toss a grenade and run away. In the 121 world, some say it is legal to log PIC if you are the PIC typed and the sole manipulator. (What FO is PIC typed at a regional anyway?)
What about the Fed ride that captains must take. Without the blessing, can you still log it in 121? (1) A pilot in command must— (i) Perform the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a check pilot; and (ii) In addition, if a qualifying pilot in command is completing initial or upgrade training specified in §121.424, be observed in the performance of prescribed duties by an FAA inspector during at least one flight leg which includes a takeoff and landing. During the time that a qualifying pilot in command is acquiring the operating experience in paragraphs (c)(l) (i) and (ii) of this section, a check pilot who is also serving as the pilot in command must occupy a pilot station. However, in the case of a transitioning pilot in command the check pilot serving as pilot in command may occupy the observer's seat, if the transitioning pilot has made at least two takeoffs and landings in the type airplane used, and has satisfactorily demonstrated to the check pilot that he is qualified to perform the duties of a pilot in command of that type of airplane. (2) A second in command pilot must perform the duties of a second in command under the supervision of an appropriately qualified check pilot. (i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate; Airline SIC training and military training are clearly recognized as being "rated" in the airplane, even if no FAA type rating is issued. Again this is all totally academic since it would not be a good idea to log such PIC unless you have a specific reason or know a potential employer who might allow it. Actually, insurance comes to mind...if an underwriter does not specify sole-man vs. actual signed-for-the-airplane PIC I think you could safely fall back on the FAR definitions for logging time. Might be helpful in the corporate world. |
Originally Posted by Swedish Blender
(Post 969671)
So I'll toss a grenade and run away. In the 121 world, some say it is legal to log PIC if you are the PIC typed and the sole manipulator. (What FO is PIC typed at a regional anyway?)
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