Mesa: Please Tell Me Where I'm Wrong
 

I am very new to this industry. I went through the Mesa Pilot Development Program, and was hired with 300 TT. I now have 160 hours in the ERJ, and it's clear to me that MAPD was originally designed to get someone on to the 1900. Putting people straight onto a jet is skipping a very important step, stick time on the 1900. That being said, I'm grateful the program was there for me. I will do my best, keep a positive attitude and move on when my marketability allows. I happen to love flying, and always assumed a company with a "fast track" program like MAPD wasn't going to be top-of-the-line from the employee's perspective.

Apparently it is my duty to pledge my hatred of Jonathan Ornstein. Why is that? I'm certainly willing to discuss shortcomings of the company, but I'm not willing to participate in spreading rumors I have personally found to be untrue. Don't the low wages at Mesa speak equally, if not more, about the failure of ALPA? Why is all the blame going to Jonathan Ornstein? Does that mean I think he's god and gets off scot-free? Of course not. But isn't it not any CEO's responsibility to get people to do the most work possible for the lowest wages possible? That's the free market, that's competition. It seems to me too many people claim to believe in free markets except when it comes to THEIR industry.

All this said, I don't mean this to come across as hostile to other pilots. I really want to learn and grow in this industry, and it's in that spirit I'm making these comments and asking these questions.

Thanks for your knowledge and experience, and have a great day. :)

I just fired up the BBQ, coals are getting hot, anyone ready for a roast?

stanrhintx,

All valid questions and points of view. Unfortunately you're unlikely to get any valid answers on a message board since those that might agree with you probably keep to themselves. Those that don't won't offer any intelligent comment on the subject.

I think it's great that you have been successful in your training and making it out onto the line. I think it's even better that you're wondering about how everything comes together. Ask questions of your captains, observe, and learn. Make your own judgements about the company, the industry, the union, and where things are headed. Don't let anybody force their line of rhetoric on you... instead come to your own conclusions.

Most importantly of all- keep upbeat and positive. Even though things might not be the best at times, those that can rise above the negativity are the ones that are most likely to land on their feet and find something in aviation that fits them well.

No. MAG ALPA gave away the farm to scope Freedom (surely you know the Freedom story) and secure ONE SENIORITY LIST for Mesa pilots. Could MAG pilots have gotten better workrules and/or payrates and still won scope? Possibly, but airplanes and jobs had already starting going to Freedom and Mesa pilots were afraid for their jobs. It would have been a moot point had A listers not stepped on other's backs for their own career progression...but I digress. ALPA did not fail Mesa in that Mesa pilots still had to ratify that TA, and they did. If it was for growth, if it was for fear, whatever...each pilot that voted YES is responsible for Mesa's current contract, and each pilot that voted yes *is ALPA*.


Because your CEO says "As long as resumes cross my desk, I know I'm paying my pilots too much." The sad thing? He's got a point - people are willing to work for Mesa and accept their pay & work rules. I was not, so my resume never crossed his desk. If people quit applying, they'd have no choice but to change the way they compensate pilots. Skywest had trouble getting pilots - they started paying during training, paid for uniforms, etc...Mesa just lowers minimums.

Freight Cowboy-

Don't be an *******. Just because that guy has a better job than you do doesn't give you the right say that kind of stuff. I won't hold my breath on a quick reply b/c your probably sleeping so you can fly my checks/film etc. all night.

Lower pay or not, flying a new, airworthy, clean, glass jet full of people is a better gig than you have. Best of luck to you, as you'll never get a job with anyone besides AA with a poor outlook on life like yours.

not a pro pilot myself...but...
flying freight is a bad thing? ive sat in the back of many regional aircraft..hearing all the complaints passengers make....i wouldnt want to deal with that. if i was a pro pilot id rather fly boxes..
o yea.. aren't UPS pilots now the highest paid?
fed ex seems to be doing pretty good too.
i mean with the way u guys are readily taking on low paying jobs at the regional level, whats next? flying for no pay? jus cuz its a ''brand new jet''
kinda sad if u ask me

FedEx and UPS are a different animal than freight cowboy is flying. I wouldn't put my in-laws pet poodle in the hands of some of those companies.

Cargo is not a desirable lifestyle as the only time you have to sleep is when the rest of the world, including your family, is awake, and living their lives. Works well for some, but it is not held widely as the best job out there.

Thanks All For the Replies...
 

dingo222- witty and quick reply. Very cool

Freightcowboy- wow, what can I say? Let's leave it this- have a nice evening, and I hold no hard feelings towards you. All the best...

FlyerJosh- thanks!! great info and great advice.

BoilerUP- great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to help educate me. You and Josh's response in particular are to me the epitome what a web site like this should be about- educating and helping one another.

Mwrong, sjs Biotchhhhhhhhhhhh! You make me sick.

compare Mesa payscale to PSA, pinnacle, eagle, TSA,commutair, colgan, chq etc,its the same so why dose everyone talk about MEsa pay?

I've wondered that myself. At first, I thought it was about JO starting up Freedom as non-union. But isn't SkyWest non-union as well? And while we're at it, isn't Jet Blue? It simply doesn't add up. I guess there had to be a boogeyman, and Mesa got the nod.

As far as i am concerned, all pilot pay stinks until you upgrade to capt for the regionals then it's ok, or go to a major, but then who know how long that will last too.

Bla bla-

First, great screen name.

Second, please speak normal english to me. Spare me the internet queer abbreviation lingo.

Third, quite mature of you to refer to me as biotch.

And finally, great comeback...you "really got me."

Let me guess: you fly cargo too? Or are you not even a pilot?

Thanks.

Danged if you do, danged if you don't. Initial pay sucks, just like any other industry. But there are limits. I remember some Scenic pilots making $13.50/hr. Sheesh... I made more than that servicing lavs! Who knows, maybe someday we'll be starting at minimum wage. The scary thing is, I know a whole slew of pilots fresh off their CMEL who would happily fly a CRJ at minimum wage, while living off mommy and daddy's trust fund. :mad:

... thank god some of us have more self respect than that.

In the end, the free market always dictates wages. And with the globalization of the economy, wages will most likely go down.

Yeah, Skywest is non-union. But the pilots there have a decent relationship with management and if you look at the payscale on here, they're paid pretty damn well when compared to other regionals. Read the jetblue fourms here, and it sounds like they won't remain non-union for long. Mesa didn't get the nod for being the boogieman, they're just the biggest of the companies out there. TSA sucks too but they're not nearly as big.

Then again, as long as people out there are willing to work in such crappy conditions (and worse yet, pay the company to do so) the pilots are just as guilty as the management.

maybe the hourly wage is comparable, but the minimums plus other compensation you should receive are not available at mesa, which btw i hate with a passion....and as far as blaming alpa or the ceo, in the end it's still you guys who apply there and continue to show up.

I am really very knowledgeable of the specifics on contracts or what a lot of the important clauses mean for that matter. However, from being on this website for about a year now and reading what i have read i feel mildly educated. To simply go to the main site here and look at hourly payrates doesn't show the whole picture. Mesa seems to have the crappiest contract in terms of working all day for only a few hours of pay, crappy schedules, and just downright sloppy work conditions. Sure if you just look at the numbers they seem close. But when you are guaranteed 75 hours and you get that its one thing, its another thing to be guaranteed something and then get in the neighborhood of 85-90 credit. It would seem to me like few Mesa pilots make more than what they are guaranteed where for instance AWAC XJet etc. guys may easily go over.

don't come here for an education

Dude I'm going to give you an honest and objective answer, so please don't take offense to it regarding your company, or the members of management.

The problem steams from the top I'll prove it to you:

Mr. Orstein believes in abusing his staff, paying them as little as possible, not maintaining adequate parts (mx personnel for that matter), taking care of the stock holders first, over promissing and under delivering...just to name a few. The byproduct of it:

Very unhappy and unmotivated employees. Highest number of cancellations due to crew issues in the industry.

You guys fly with the most MEL's of any carrier (regional and otherwise) in the U.S. Highest number of cancellations due to mechanical issues (check the DOT).

If you take a look at a company like Southwest the corporate culture is: "we'll take care or our employees, our employees will take care of our customers, and our customers will take of our stockholders". That translates to fair wages, happy employees, happy customers, and a much higher level of profitability. ExpressJet is a good example of it as well.

Mesa carries the worse performance numbers in the industry along with one of the highest number of attrition and low employee moral. It all ties in together.

This is where opinion begins:

On top of it all is the fact that he uses the money that he saves ("steals" from you guys) to allow him to underbid the competitors, and creates alter egos, and borderline illegal operations (go!) to undermine the collective barganing of the only entity that exist (for better or for worse) to protect our livelyhood.

So there you have it short brief and to the point, and all factual information no rumors.

Peace, brother. Far be it for me to claim to have a positive attitude all the time. I respect you for having made this most recent reply. Thanks and all the best!

Thanks!
 

Thanks for your thoughts. This is precisely the sort of information I want to put into the bin I call my brain, to help form my opinions and learn more about the industry.

Hell, I'm gonna take the lazy way out here...
 

.... thank you to everyone who has replied thus far. Much of the information confirms what I'm learning as I go. My goal is to keep a positive attitude, be aware of the reality of the industry, and eventually increase my marketability so I can get a job with a great company like Southwest, UPS, FedEx (my top three choices, I know I'm years away). There's several other fine companies to work for, of course.

Thanks again.

Freight-

Almost a great comeback.

I am still in college, and like yourself will not be going to the regionals. I have been flying a Citation for nearly 2 years and will do so full time after graduation. I'm not the typical CFI airline pilot wanna be that you find on this forum.

While I do have a lot to learn, I know a fair amount about the business, as my father is a pilot in the industry as well. I won't brag to you how long he has flown for the airlines.

For my last point, your fathers experience, while extensive has done nothing for you, and never will. I bet the Dad line works great in interviews.

I don't see how I was an a$$.

Who you flyin A321's for? United?

hey MWight ... uve been flying that citation for 2 yrs??? and u plan to do so full time after graduating????

well then why would u post the following.. in a diff section?????

Young pilot with 820TT/40 MULTI looking for right seat programs/jobs.

Anyone have any information that could be helpful?

Thanks.

in 2 yrs u got 40 hours of multi engine time?? plus the time it took to get the rating?

Well first of all, you really dragged the bottom of the barrel on regionals. I wouldn't classify any of those airlines as "stellar career choices" for those of us that live in a world where we have to pay bills and make ends meet.

But to answer your question, the short answer is work rules. From what I understand (i dont work for the devil errr...Mesa) they are a "block or worse" type operation. Ive heard some Mesa guys say that they are paid average block which means no matter how long the flight takes, you are paid what it was blocked for. You sit in line for takeoff for 4 hours in a blizzard in DEN before your hop to COS which is blocked at 40 minutes, you only get paid 40 minutes. At an airline like XJET, you would have gotten pay for that 4 hours plus what it was blocked for. Pay protection is another issue. Say after 4 hours on the taxiway, you gate return and the flight cancels. At a company like Mesa, you would be SOL, the flight never went, you dont get paid for the flight or for the time you spent taxiing, thanks for the effort though. At an airline like XJET you would have been paid for that time.

Another thing to look at is duty rig. If you are called out to the airport, does the company have to use you efficiently? At a company like Mesa, there is no incentive for them to do that. You could come out, fly a leg blocked at one hour, sit at the outstation for 8 hours and then turn around and fly back and the company would only have to pay you for 2 hours. Know of any other jobs like that where you are at "work" for 10 hours but you get paid for 2. Companies with a duty rig usually have rules requiring them to pay you a minimum amount (for example, 4 hours of flight pay) for every day you are on duty, regardless of how much flying you do. That gives the company incentive to schedule efficiently because every company hates to pay folks to just sit around. There are other examples of duty rig out there that Im sure people could explain.

Finally, a disclaimer: all of my info on Mesa is anecdotal and has come from listening to Mesa pilots b!tch about their pay and workrules. If anyone has corrections, or better info, feel free to rip my post apart:D

I thought the 1900 was reserved for high time hires. Did you have any say in what aircraft you wanted?

Actually Grandpa, I do fly a citiation part-time (there are 3 other FO's). I'd like to fly more, however school requires a large time commitment. Because of class, I can only fly on weekends and during the breaks. When you work for an owner who flies around 75 hours a year, spilitting it 3 ways can be difficult.

Did either one of you attend or graduate from college with a 4 year degree?

Let's not talk down to people while you work at Spirit, as you haven't exactly "made it" yet.

Freight--you're getting mighty defensive. What gives bud?

How to the captains at Spirit look at you when you say "peace" everytime you leave the cockpit? For a professional pilot, you're not very professional.

Also Freight-

At what point have I acted like my ego is sensitive? I assure you it is not, as this is simply an online forums full of people who may or may not be pilots.

You ought to not take yourself so seriously.

"PEACE."

Dearn god, make it stop. 2 people have highjacked the thread.

You guys ever heard of PM's? No offense but the young lad could care less about your issues. Give the guy an answer or PM eachother to death!!!

Sanchez, I'm not sure what issues you are talking about just making points.

I did give my answer and I'm ready to close out and be done with this thread. I apologize if your offended. I appreciate your professionalism and sorry if I've lacked.

PEACE

No apology nessesary, I just hate to see thread go into a different direction, when this is a good opportunity to pass on what you, and me, and many others know to be wrong with this industry...i.e. Jonathan Orstein.

MWright and Freightcowboy:

Can you two kids take your "my p**** is bigger than your p****" to another place? You really don't want to get into it with some of us other folks on here, trust me...

Get over yourselves! I'm pretty sure that neither of you are God's gift to aviation. We each choose our own paths. For some that's Mesa. For others it's Spirit. Or Jet Blue, or Ameriflight, or corporate or even driving the lav cart.

Personally (based on the immaturity I've seen in this thread) I find it hard to believe that anybody would put up with either of you. I know that I for one would happily put you off at the first airport I landed at if you acted like this on my aircraft...

It's fine to disagree. It's how you disagree that's driving the rest of us up the wall. If you want to call each other stupid and toss around names why not take it to that other aviation forum where such behavior is tolerated.

</rant>

I have a tendancy to get bitter when JO's name is mentioned since he invested a bunch of money into Spirit. I think the company from "rumor" of course is putting a clause in the new contract to keep from making any type of decisions and from I gather the company has agreed then again just "rumor".

Every thing I know about Mesa through some descent Mesa Pilots has been mentioned.

PEACE

Flyer Josh,

I apologize for lack of professionalism I did get wrapped up but hey ******* happens sorry that it carried as long as did which I did not intend too.

I'm stubborn but its a way of survival. I do not act like a God of Aviation, I'd like to think I'm pretty professional in the cockpit. The Captains and I get along great and I think you would too.

Anywayz, good luck to your future aviation career.

PEACE

P.S. Again, I like to debate not insult but when it comes my way just like everyone I'm sure including yourself won't take it. Also, since my lack of professionalism has P$$$$$$ people off I'm offering everybody an apology and taking my threads off

... so whose up for beers? :D

All-
Apologies if I bothered/offended anyone on the forum. I guess I got too serious in my discussions with Freight Cowboy. I wasn't try to bug anyone. Sorry about that.

Freight Cowboy-Sorry for jumping up your a$$. I got carried away.

Again, apologies.

Regards,
wright

MMMMMMmmmmmm beer. You buying?

in all fairness i am probably gonna do the same if not better than most first year tprop FO's
although i only get 13:50 an hour flight time i get half that for duty time(anything not flying from clock in to clock out) so its almost like a 6.75 per diem. So an average month i get paid for about 120 effective flight hours(2 duty hours =1 flight hour) when you count all the down time that im paid for watching movies.
And i do not work my ass off to get that 120, and my reserve is 96 efh if i chose an easy schedule and dont wanna fly.
Im home every night, i rarely have more than a 12 hour duty day, anything more than 12 hours I get 2x and if i pick up a shift on my day off i get 2X and im doing the easiest severe VFR flying in a low slow airplane, and ill probably make the same 1st year as someone flying a fast 1900 doing scary approaches and sleeping in a passenger seat during standup overnights.

i know that wasnt the point of the thread but had to stick up for my brothers!