More press over our wages.
 

Sadly, for many Americans it seems they may become worried about their safety and not be concerned about the quality of life of their underpaid pilots. So far there's little evidence that says safety has, or will be, compromised. This is a sad indicator of the increasing tilt of the equality level in this country, all about our own little selves. "Oh my god, those pilots make so little, I am worried about my safety" - its not about the pilots, its about themselves. And everyone knows many pilots play this against each other, too. Sad. I frequently ask non-pilot friends if they'd pay $5 more per flight to boost pilot/crew pay. They all readily agree they would. Let's use a RJ700 at 80% capacity. 48 X $5/4 = $58 per crew per leg. 4 legs a day = $232 a day per crew x 15 days per month $3480 a month. Like that's going to happen!

I am sure someone else has thought of a tip basket by the cabin door. I also wondered what would happen if upon arrival the crew said "we'll we're here and on time, everyone enjoy their time at home, it'll give us time to spend our food stamps" Of course they'd be fired. It would be a interesting court case, too. Fired for telling the truth. Interesting times.

Why should the public care about how little we are paid, other than the fact that low pay is generally associated with attracting less qualified applicants. I accepted the rate, so I can live with the consequence of that decision. Do I think we need to increase the pay? Yes, but that needs to be taken care of during negotiations, and not through any form of government intervention.

We need to stand united and make our demands. One person can't do it by themselves, but together we all could. It's about time to stand up or we're going to see a continual erosion of our quality of life. It hasn't been going our direction - has it? Its not going to either until we all grow some spinal stiffness and unity.

We pilots gave a lot after 9/11 to help the airlines stay in business. Now things are looking up and profits are beginning to slowly flow. Its time we get a piece of the pie back.

We need to realize that we drive the wages and the value of this profession. We determine what it is worth. Lately it doesn't seem like we're valuing ourselves and what we provide. We have become our own worst enemy. It's not the companies or the unions, we have allowed this to happen and it's time to turn that around. We need to get involved and stand up.

Please, please, everybody simmer down! Roger Cohen will be here momentarily to set the record straight.

Until then here's some light reading:

Regional Airline Association > RAA- Home

Enjoy :D

Yeah, people are only worry about themselves..... and I only worry about myself AS IT SHOULD BE! If you disagree, please feel free to make a donation to the FlyJSH Transportation Rejuvenation Fund *

We will never get any gains by crying "Poor me, my QOL is so bad I can't stand it. Please pay me more." We may be able to get better pay by selling the idea of better pay attracts better pilots, and better pilots are safer pilots.



* The FlyJSH Transportation Rejuvenation Fund is a charity raising money to provide underpaid, under appreciated, puddle jumping captains new family vehicles.

If I needed brain surgery, I wouldn't spend all day surfing the internet, looking for the cheapest brain surgeon. I would want the best brain surgeon.

Until they check for the lowest fare on Orbitz, etc. Maybe the airlines should put a note on those websites saying "we pay our pilots $5 more per hour than X airline, hence our higher fares." That would bring customers!

Roger Cohen...what a spray tan freak of nature!

I hear even his dog spray tans while Roger is out on the road staying in 50$ hotels next to EWR.

Roger is no longer in charge. Chip childs is the new chairman of the RAA.

When one ultimately only cares about themselves then that's what you get, one person against the others. The "others", even if they make the "rules", certainly don't care only about themselves, they work together to make sure individuals only think about themselves.

I've been in aviation 30+ years, did the regional thing in the 80's. I am furloughed and seem to be SOL right now, but I can't and won't go back to the regionals. Those in the regionals now don't know how much worse you have it. I fully understand the way it works, the narrow pipeline that may lead to the 50/50 chance (at best) that you'll make it to the majors or whatever passes as a good gig these days. The system is totally rigged against the majority of the pilots. Yes, I've been a active union member, but that's fallen down hard - essentially a fail situation. (which is why I think a lot of pilots take the "individual pass, they see how unions seem to little for the majority of the pilots, at least in the regional realm). What the union, or someone must do is get RLA amended. When essentially the government tells you when you can strike and also approves various ways for carriers to go bankrupt (and toss much of your agreement) that's the top tier of the rigged system. There's really a lot of other things that need to be done, but time and again it seems to come down to that, amending the RLA. One strike every ten years isn't going to do anything, in fact it can make it worse, witness the dismantling of Comair.

This argument over pay and conditions has been going on 10+ years now, and every year the chorus is it'll get better, and how much worse can it get? Yet after ten+ years, you have your answer.

I am not trying to trash anyone at all. I think most pilots do an outstanding job most times in spite of the conditions they are in.

I don't know chazbird,

Back then;

-2,500 TT and an ATP, to be even looked at for a job that you still had to pay 10 Grand to fly a Metro
-$12 an hour FO pay, 21$ an hour CA pay (J-32 TranStates, early 90’s not the 80’s but still) and no flight attendant.
-No internet forum for the gouge. The forum was an FE who used to instruct floating through the FBO and regaling the instructors with tales of the interview, ground school and life in the big leagues.
-Typed airline applications then snail mailed. Then wait and pray.

off the top of my head.

Each generation has their own challenges.

This is all easily summed up:

#1: The public does not care about how little we get paid. They only care about cheaper tickets. This will never change no matter how illogical it seems.

#2: Airlines (Regional Airlines in particular) will always dangle a carrot which plenty of pilots will promptly run after. The latest "everybody at Eagle is guaranteed a job at AA" is a perfect example.

#3: Airlines (Regionals in particular) will continue relying on people's passion for flying to staff their aircraft. Granted, less people are taking the financial plunge these days..but there will always be kids with "daddy's money" who will push forward with flight training ignoring the costs vs returns.

#4: Any future pilot shortage will be offset by larger aircraft being flown for lower wages after all the current batch of pilots begin retiring...

It will take an act of Congress (re-regulation) to change any of this. Short of that...don't expect this industry to change for the better...ever. The looming pilot shortage, as real as it is will do nothing to change pay or QOL. It will simply force Airlines to invent new ways to pay us nothing and work us longer.

Not true... I flew the metro in the 80's and never had to pay anyone $10,000.00 ! Also made much more than $12 an hour to fly it. Not really sure where this guy supposedly went for such a bad deal?

I interviewed w/ /CoEx in 1992, and as I recall it would've been based in EWR making 12K first year. I came home and told my wife there was no way, not with a family.

You realize the government intervenes in your negotiations and holds your pay rates lower right now, right? Government intervention in your favor would only be fair or they should butt out of the negotiations.

Most 3rd year regional first officers are making more than the average median income in America. I think don't think too many 23 years olds will be getting much sympathy because they are only making $40,000 on 3rd year pay. Especially considering that college isn't required. All it takes to get in the regional seat is a high school diploma and a few hundred hours of flight time. If you don't like it don't take the job but quite crying about it. Wait, I forgot they are they entitled generation.

$40k is still underpaid. I'm actually on 6th year rj fo pay...and it is still less than 40k, not by much but still less. I find it stupid how all the mainline pilots come on the regional threads and say things like "quit crying, leave of you don't like it". You're not the one having to do these jobs. If you big bad mainline pilots would stop giving away your scope, and flying till 65, we would not be having this conversation.

Median income in the US is $49,000 and falling. Most pilot bases are in higher cost cities. Most regional pilots have a 4 year degree + specialized training + travel away from home = should be making more than median income.

I am not overly romantic about 80's regional life, it was a stepping stone then, instead of climbing Mt. Everest now. I did, however, although I did make an inflation corrected (1987 to 2011) 42k as a first year FO on a SAAB, 15 on/off and it had a FO, although I am not sure what means. By the 90's it was well on its way to the bottom, the code shares and eventual buyouts of the mid 80's is what eventually sent it all down hill, although with expanded flying. There used to be many independent regionals with their own routes, some were horrible, some were really quite good. True, it did take 2500/500 and (sometimes) an ATP to get in, and you had to mail a resume/application, which I think is a better way - the internet has lead to a huge flood of resumes. A certain fractional I know has 14,000 pilot resumes on file, all internet. They are obviously overwhelmed and now they only hire through pilot referrals, ultimately not a good thing because like any organic system that is a way to inbreed and get a disease. In ancient days I'd research a company at the library, I think it kept 14,000 resumes from showing up.

Your $49,000 figure for median is HOUSEHOLD median income. Take a 35,000 - 40,000 regional pilot married to a 20,000 per year taco bell cashier and they are making way above median household income. As far as "degree, specialized training, away from home, blah blah blah" now are you are just talking entitlements. Do your homework people and if you don't like the water then don't jump in. Quit if you don't like it and get over yourselves. If you think $35K-$45K per year jobs are a dime a dozen in the real world than you are really in need of a reality check. :cool:

The problem most of us have is that this is the only career we know, so how else do we compare what is 'good pay' other than the next company is paying more for a bigger plane?

Short story...dad was Air Force pilot in the 70s and didn't get on board when the airlines were making their Vietnam era hiring dash. So, he went to work at IBM. Late 80s come around, and he had been there 10 years, but UA was hiring again. Tossed in his application, and the letter came back extending him an interview.

The pay was about 40% what he was making at IBM, not to mention I was about 3 at the time. Instead of going airline, he stayed put and got a very nice pension when he retired back in 2003 at the age of 56. Name me an airline that offers/offered this.

Its the same old song and dance. Until pilots understand their true worth, we will settle for what is on the table because hey, its more than the last job or what the other outfit is offering.

Nice job Paid2fly! A close friend had to pony up that fee when he was hired at CoEx around 98-99, one of the last generations to come through who did. And ACA was still charging the 10G fee into that period too. I know many pilots who’s deciding factor for a job was that fee, and American Eagle, TranStates, and Mesa were some of the operators who didn’t charge it.

And the pay rate quote isn't rumor either, I’m sure there’s somebody on this forum who could supply the pay rates for many of the probably now defunct, regionals, or “commuters”.

Anyway, a realization while thinking about the differences between then and now was that back then the cost of getting into professinal flying was much lower, but you paid your dues in the amount of time it took. Now it’s exactly the opposite. The Time it takes to become a Barbie jet FO replete with a jaunty walk, ear buds, frosted tips and a backpack is relatively short, but the cost is exorbitant.

This is a point that I’ve made many times. A furloughed friend was desperate for a job as time went by. His wife had a great job, so at first life was ok, then she was downsized and now it’s panic button time. Factor in kids established with school, friends/family in your city and the cost of moving, or unable to move because your house is underwater and you may not be able to cover the mortgage and expenses with a remotely rented house and you got yourself a real pickle. Find a job quickly making more than $12 bucks an hour which after overtime, if offered anymore, is about 24K-28K a year. My boy is a college educated, well presented professional and couldn’t land a job to save his life. Everywhere he applied, there were 200 other applicants with specific experience in that job. Luckily he landed on his feet at an LCC but there were some dark lonely nights until that bolt of lighting struck.

I am not defending our pay. I’m offering a short story to illustrate the disconnect that begins to creep in as we compare ourselves to the Southwest and FedEx FO pulling that mythical obscene old school wage. And then there is pilot who references the college buddy or in-law who works in that one industry at ABC Corp and is making 6 figures that continues to perpetuate the feeling that everyone outside our biz is printing money, with weekends and holidays off and assistant coaching their kids soccer teams. It’s not happening. Do they exist, sure, but they are the exception and not the norm.

Thanks for the correction, median household income is $49,000. However I still stand by the degree + training + time away formula. A family making 49,000K in any major metro area in this country is hurting, as real wages have stagnated since 1970. It isn't just the airline "entitled" types who are falling behind. I am one of the "entitled" baby boomer's, although I don't think I am. Flew bush, freight, regional, start-up, overseas contract and am flat on my ass 12.5 years from mandatory retirement. It is a pity there's all the back biting, being labeled entitled by a mainline pilot and being called a seat hog by the younger generation because of the age 65 year rule. It seems the way things are going by the time the 26 year olds ****ed at the old farts come up to age 65 they'll be wishing it'll be extended to 70.

I knew Metro captains in 1983 making 50K, that's 1983, an independent company with no interline/code share. I also knew FO's in 99's or f27's making 12k.

I don't think any regional FO should make less than 25K first year.

What we pilots need to do is to look at other careers and fight for pay thats comparable.

Will that happen? Nope.

Am I optimistic that this career is going anywhere? Nope.

Am I mad?

http://almostdumb.com/wp-content/upl...t-even-mad.jpg

Side note: My GF (hot Italian girl, 22 years old, in school currently so no degree etc) works for Gulfstream (no, not the airline...the manufacturer) as a receptionist....making...wait for it....36K She started a month ago.

...and the benefits are insane...

Her gym membership is free (I still pay 50 a month to be this aesthetic)

She has PET INSURANCE....you heard it....PET insurance

Cell phone is paid for (company pays the bill)

Better hotel rates, rental car rates, escort rates etc.





I'm STILL not even mad....just....



http://trollcats.com/wp-content/uplo...t_trollcat.jpg

Saluki,

I'm sure you're athletic membership contributes mightily to your aesthetic.

:D -couldn’t resist, kidding of course.

And now back to the thread…

Wow. We have forced labor here in the land of the free? The only reason why regional pay is so low is because people continue to sign up for these jobs. These pay scales are public. This is not a surprise for a new-hire opening their first pay stub.

I used to fly for a night freight company that could always attract pilots, because of decent pay and lifestyle (if you don't mind red-eyes) and eventual upgrade to the jets. Then came the dawn of the RJ, and suddenly box-hauling wasn't as glamorous as going straight into the right seat of that shiny new RJ, even though that 50-seat RJ didn't pay a dime more than the smaller turboprop commuters that were being replaced. My company suddenly had a hard time filling new-hire classes. What happened? Did the mail stop moving? No, just as suddenly new-hire pay increased by 25%, plus a signing bonus and another bonus at your first anniversery. I'd already been there a few years, but my pay went up too, thanks to the sudden shortage of qualified applicants (Part 135, so 1200 hour minimum).

The young guys like to blame the boomer generation's selfishness for their misery (I'm not in either generation, I guess?), but what are the chances that the young guys will suddenly quit signing up for the poverty-level RJ jobs? (hint: probably about zero)

You're right. That would make room for the military pilots, who should start out at the majors, spots at the majors.

You regional guys are missing the point. You guys get a fair wage for the minimal training and experience you bring to the job. Regional F/O is an entry level position.

I know plenty of regional pilots with WAY more experience than mainline pilots but are the victims of some really bad career, seniority list timing. Does you're average mainline pilot have more experience? Of course, but don't discount the countless regional pilots either.

And...

Ok, we're getting into the Regional vs. Major pilot flame fest. Which burns through a few pages and posts of BS and resolves nothing.

Obviously both of the above quotes are gross stereotypical , overly simplistic misrepresentations of the average regional or major airline pilot.

Bottom line, until there is an incentive to pay more, then airlines won't. The iron law of wages comes to mind and it's no different here.

"Caveat Emptor" We all knew what we were getting into and if you didn't then that's a problem you sorted out quickly.

It matters not a bit if we think we are underpaid or overpaid. The market determines our wages, with perhaps a little nudge by airline employee unions. As far as pilots are concerned, until this persistent, decades long oversupply of pilots ceases to exist, airline pilot wages will always be low, with continuing downward pressure. Until airline management is literally forced by a lack of an available pilot pool to raise wages or offer financial incentives nothing will change.

Doesn't matter the experience level. Fact is that regional F/O is an entry level job and pays entry level pay.

You really yanked hard on that ladder when your ENTITLEMENT slot at Delta came up, Mesa Ba dude...

While there is a point that a regional pilot now is an entry level job, perhaps more so than in 80's, but when regional pay is, for the most part, less now than what it was in the 80's it isn't a matter of it being an entry level job. What the market decides and such similar statements isn't like it is some force in the universe like gravity, a great deal of the wage problem is designed by people who have their aims and tend outsmart the the other people (IE ALPA, ET AL) who allegedly are looking out for the pilots.

And (I ask nicely) what might be of a regional pilots (or other pilots) entitlement? When it is said that a regional RJ FO making 40k and their spouse makes another 20K at Taco Bell, what exactly does that mean, RJ = Taco Bell? Maybe it does, but it shouldn't.

You guys are missing the vital connection here. IF you want the RJ F/O to be considered NOT an entry level position, then will have to get NON entry level pilots to fill it and you will essentially lock out the CFIs who have traditionally filled the RJ F/O position.

You can't have it both ways. But that's entitlement for you, thinking you can have it both ways.

Do you honestly think $20 - $25/hr is fair entry level pay for a technical position requiring years of training and experience?

If you take $25/hour, after that technical training for an entry position, I'd say it is fair pay, or you wouldn't have taken it.

This thread ties it all together. 500 hour CFIs looking to get into the airline business, happy to get anything; while 6 year F/Os complain they aren't paid like mainline F/Os. The 6 year guy doesn't realize that the CFI is the cause of his pay issue.

Lastly, the killer--blaming the mainline guys for giving up scope and working til 65 for being greedy guys causing their stagnation. Seniority is just that--SENIORITY, the old guys feast, the young wait. And, if the mainline guys hadn't been forced into "giving up" (see BK 101), the RJ guys would not have benefited from the last ten years RJ hiring boom while the mainlines furloughed, shrank.

GF

The fact is that age 65 was a payoff to the baby boomers and a yoke tied to the necks of those below them. Saying otherwise is misinformation. If you still want to retire at 60 then you can. However, it's enlightening how few of you do. Greed is greed and it doesn't exist in a vacuum. Your second vacation house is hurting someone starting a family.

Regionals were a stepping stone, now many are coming up on 5 or 6 year FO pay with no upgrade in sight. That is also fact. Many if not most of you at mainline had to put up with maybe 1-2 years of FO regional pay.

What many of those mainline pilots don't factor in is the utter stagnation and hopelessness of the regional ranks. You can't relate to it. When your time came to pay your dues the payoff was in sight. Now it's a mirage.

You hit the nail on the head. Gotta love regional pilot fratricide.