Whenever I feel down I just buy another gun and I miraculously I feel better. Then I go fly the King Air and life is normal again.

The aviation industry is all about luck and timing. Some bad people have good luck on checkrides and some good people have bad luck, that is not to say that skill isn't involved. Timing has everything to do with career progression in the airlines. Some will stay at the regionals for life, some will go on to the majors, others won't make it to 121 at all (if thats what was intended) I know people from all of the above categories. Just remember, I'd like to say its all about skill, but it seems to be more about luck and timing.

I've seen this a lot lately. I see really good pilots way better than me get turned down from places and I'm like damn how in the hell am I going to make it?

The general aviation playing field is certainly not level by any means, which is why I have a hard spot with employers holding 1-2 busts against someone.

But if the examiner has that bad of a reputation, I would start to doubt the judgement of someone who doesn't learn from the mistakes of others. specially if he keeps going back to the same guy.

We had a student who was morally opposed to paying $450 to a DPE when the feds would do it for free. After getting jerked around with scheduling for weeks, he had a 6-hour oral (commercial ASEL) followed by a pink slip for the PRE-FLIGHT. Then he went back to the same guy and pinked again, on the ground. This was a fed who had never in recorded history ever passed a student on any rating checkride...he obviously did that to discourage people from bothering him. That student was too stobborn for his own good.

Mistakes will be made, but never make the same mistake twice, that's a good rule to go by. There is always something to be learned. And if it's truly what you want (121) then you will not give up and figure out a way. Then after 6 months at an airline you'll miss being home, not having holidays, etc. But it's what all of us signed up for I guess.

Thank you for saying that!!! I told my friend not to take his ride with him better yet I begged him not to. After the first bust I pleaded him not to go again. He was to stubborn to learn and now he has 2 busts.

I am, USMC. And I agree with you totally. I'm just more interested in protecting myself than anything else, hence the first suggestion. Once these people start running around with subpoenas, clamoring for 'justice', people other than the ones at fault for the accident will feel the most effects. The CA and F/O are dead. 9L is now part of Pinnacle. Sure, some money will change hands, congressmen will grandstand about a 1,500hr rule, but really, the rest of the us who are safe, competent pilots will receive the fallout every time we go to work.

I have friends who I've flown many times with who are safe, knowledgeable pilots who can't find a job because of their failed check rides. I had my manuals checked by a Fed several times in one week as a 'crackdown' on the regionals, showing how 'safety conscious' our system is. It's all window dressing, and is what happens when the 'legal' system, and the 'public' get in over their heads....

Might all come back to pay... you get what you pay for.

When I was going through my school, I chatted with a former grad who was pink slipped for not landing center line on a grass runway. No way to contest that, nothing could be done. DPEs fail people for things that they shouldn't be failed for. I failed the MEI ride on the first attempt because I used 8" MP and Prop back to the detente to simulate zero thrust, as described by Beech for the BE-76. Was busted because I was not "...able to see exactly where 8" MP is because the MP gauge only goes down to 10" ". Even pulling out the manual and showing him still did not allow me to pass the first time. Second time I went up, did it his way (13" MP) and received the congratulatory hand shake. I assume he needed the reexamination fee to help pay for his luxury SUV with the leather interior.

In my opinion, 121 operators should not even care about failed CFI rides anyways. I'm not wanting to go there to flight instruct, want to go and fly something else besides a C-172. They should allow people to get the jobs, then if they can't make it through training, or pass their checkrides as suggested previously, then be let go. All I want is the chance to be able to prove myself, I can do it and be successful.

I've flown with a lot of guys who never failed a ride, that are at the regionals and else where, that I would be scared to put the neighbors dog on board an airplane they are flying.

Besides, wasn't the FO on 3407 the one who made a configuration change (raising the flaps) without the Captain's say so?

Is it your contention that this was the ONLY thing that you failed for on your MEI chekride?

That is an awfully expensive way to run a business. Those training busts are not cheap. One way to recoup those losses would be a training contract. Would you favor one of those? Obviously the business (any business) looks for a candidate that can pass whatever training regime is expected - whether it be academic or physical. Anything else is loss time and effort.

USMCFLYR

I was a 135 Pilot for eight years (2 yrs Chief Pilot and Check Airman), a 121 pilot now for 12 years, and a DPE for 14 years. I've had one unsat in my career. I can honestly say that in all that time, in all the checkrides I've observed, taken, or given, I've NEVER seen a checkride that was unsat because of one minor issue.

I guess it could happen, but I could win the Power Ball too. When I give a checkride today, I generally let it go long enough to where the applicant can see that it should be unsat. If they don't see it, well that says more about them then the task they've not done correctly.

Take a hard look at your failures in life, ask yourself what was YOUR part in it, and try to do better going forward. And don't go around blaming everyone else. If I was on a hiring board, that in a nutshell is the attitude I'd be looking for. Good luck with what will surely be a wonderful career (if that's possible anymore).

I know ONE company that does it that way

:p

Some don't. In my very first airline interview I was asked if I had ever failed any checkrides other than the CFI. I asked why are they not interested in knowing if I had failed that one and the response from the chief pilot was "too many people fail that one at least once to really take it as an honest indicator, so I don't think it counts".

The funny thing is that if a Lawyer screws up bad enough, it could cost someone their life as well. But at an interview they're not asked to reveal how many times it took them to pass the Bar exam. If they have passed it, that's all that matters, even though like in Aviation, people entrust their lives to them. Cruz, "you're my boy blue!"

"One engine inoperative procedures" was what was listed on the disapproval notice. I would be willing to do a training contract, just stop treating those us who have had some challenges like excrement.

You are not all examiners though. On my CFI initial, my chandelles were in his opinion unsatisfactory. I got credit for every other maneuver. I got the required three hours of retraining, retested on the chandelles with a different inspector, and all was good. I learned nothing in the retraining, I did nothing different on the second ride, and never felt that my chandelles were unsatisfactory to begin with.

My point is that while it seems that you have the big picture in mind when you give your rides, you can't assume that every other examiner does.

A few seconds of inattention at a critical time (ala 3407) and 50 people die :confused:
I know you are trying to draw a parallel with death penalty cases and legal mistakes, not objecting at the right time, or missing a piece of critical detail - but that is why there is a long and drawn out review/appeal process. Trying to say that one carries the same amount of time sensitive / one step away from serious injury or death is a little overplaying the subject in my opinion.

I work with a lot of former FSDOs in my current job and I've asked them a few times since seeing this on the forums about failing, records, reasons, etc.... Every one of them says that unless an applicant almost killed them doing something wrong that they don't fail on a single item - especially one that could be contested such as a recommended practice right out of the POH. Personally I think it would be a poor debrief if a DPE wouldn't sit down with you after a bust and debrief you in *detail* exactly what you did wrong. I know it is a different environment, but if I ever failed anyone on a flight then it was well debriefed and documented because the paperwork and reasons were scrutinized for validity. Even when listening to students discussion the flight or the outcome it seemed to be a little more narrow in focus than the actual flight/sim.

I too don't think that training contracts are necessarily a bad thing as long as they protect both parties, but that hardly seems to be the majority case. Those contracts do not seem to garner support from most in the industry though.

USMCFLYR

IFB -

As a DPE, are your pass/fail statistics by certificate or rating anywhere for prospective clients/schools to research (internet, FAA database, personal records, etc...)

USMCFLYR

ok so where to 121 wash outs play into effect here. example...i know someone...no this isnt "i had a friend who..." it really isnt me...that washed out of training at a 121 then went to another regional, no i wont name which one to bait the flame, that is known to hire unsavory characters. he simmered there for a while and later was hired at one of the more reputable regionals. idk the rest of his record but it seems to me that a 121 washout would be considerably worse than a checkride bust or two...just sayin??

I would definitely agree. I'm actually surprised that the second regional took him. I thought if you washed out of a 121 training program that was the 'black mark' - so to speak.

There have been airlines that are known to be shady when washing out applicants.

True on all points. One of the sad realities of the civilian world is that DE's are ALSO business men, and in business time is money. I can't tell you how many times when I was either taking a check ride, or at the airport and check rides were being given that this was apparent. In the summer, some guys are cranking out as many a 4 rides in a single day, in the winter 3. Doesn't matter if it's a pass or a fail, but that doesn't seem like much time to be spending on each individual applicant to cover all the thumbs up/thumbs down items, as well as all the standard collateral learning that takes place on a ride.

There was on one DE in my area that was being a little bit TOO mercenary in his practices, and it caught up to him. And worse, it affected the careers of some of the people he certified. Although they wouldn't find out till later in their careers.

Before 3407, hardly. In the wake of 3407, more and more so.

Airlines

http://screensnapr.com/e/vx0xOG.png

Every year when I apply for renewal I have to submit a list of all check rides/ applicants/ pass/ failures since my last renewal. AFAIK the FAA does not make that information available to the public. I suspect this is so the "Santa Claus" Examiners don't get all the business. I'm quite sure that most CFIs in their local area know the DPE's reputation, and if they don't it won't take very many phone calls to find it out.


I've got to call B.S. on this one. FAA Order 8900.2 specifically restricts us from conducting more than two complete certification rides in one day. It has done so for years. About three months ago my POI called me and asked if I'd done more than two in one day, because their computer said I did. Two more phone calls a couple weeks later, and I finally wrote them a letter listing the page in 8900.2 and saying that I was well aware if it. Don't know what happened to cause this, but they ARE watching us. After doing two rides in one day I'm tired enough I wouldn't WANT to do any more...

I've personally seen 3-4 in a day. Look at ATP!

Not sure about ATP but some of these could be considered "end of course" done by a check pilot and not a DPE or FAA.

Feel free to "call B.S." on whatever you want. But I was there and saw it happen when I was a CFI in the 90's. And like I said, in the case of one, it caught up to him and ended his examining career, as well as helped to slightly screw up the careers of people he examined. Until it was discovered years later what he had done.

I'm not saying ALL of them were like that, but I remember seeing more than one DE at the airport from sun up to sun down doing rides, for more than 2 applicants.

Just a little perspective here. Nearly 15 years ago, I failed my private, comm, and CFII, All with the same examiner. They were legit busts, but he was a tough examiner.

All these years later I have 4 transport category PIC type ratings. I've been a 121 captain on 3 of those planes. I have more than enough 121 PIC time. I'm a sim instructor at my airline. I've taken more than a decade worth of 121 recurrent check rides and line checks and fed observations. I've never had a single 121 failure in all of those years. In fact, I've never had to retrain a single event on any of those check rides. Never needed an extra sim session. Even debrief items are rare.

Why should I still be penalized for those three failures 15 years ago?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think it would be much of an issue for you.

You've got a proven 121 training record. An airline has already proven that you're perfectly trainable...you're not trying to get into the scene from the outside.

Those emails were not shared with the NTSB: watch for another news story to come. Pinnacle will be opening up their and their insurers wallet.

GF

You know it brotha, amen!


Even so, 3 checkrides a week at $500 per ride, with the occasional reexamination fee, isn't bad at the end of the month.

The FAA should go back to the pre-3407 policy of purging failures after 5 years, it's hurting too many people careers not to do so. A lot of good people out there who had a few bad days, are being looked at as if they're lower than dog excrement.

So true.

I think the best thing that anyone could take from this unfortunate accident is to reflect on what mistakes were made in the cockpit at the time, and learn from them. The past is for reflection and gaining understanding of what to and what not to do....not residency!



atp

I know of a DPE who makes close to $80k a year off doing cash rides. Also VERY SR at a large Fractional. To say he lives comfortably is an understatement.

OOOH....Here's your pink slip...You just busted another one. Meet me in the briefing room and bring a cup of joe; we are gonna talk about HUMILITY.

Does he work for Flex? If so I think we know the same person!

I think so too

If it's who I think it is he's a good guy and knows how to make a penny. I can't blame him for that.

GREAT guy! I dont blame him either! Just sayin theres good money in it.

Boom. Hit it.

I know this sounds like a dumb question, but could you please elaborate?

And how did it ruin your career???
You can't fly for an airline with 300 hours, really?
Go out and pay your dues. Go out and build time. Go out and build experience.
Sorry, I'm an "old guy", mid 40s. Almost 3000 hrs of CFI and single pilot freight before I saw a turbine engine.
And I now have almost 20,000 hrs including 6000 pic in the Dash. And a Dash8 stall is very easy to recover from.
So yes, this accident was an experience issue.
Just the way it is, a lot of low time pilots that think they know more and are better than they are.
I learn something on every flight.