Schumer Calls for Senate Hearings into Colgan Air E-Mails | wgrz.com


....now it seems they want a senate hearing over the emails.

I'm not a 300 hour pilot, but am close to 1000 and have been busting my hump instructing. I learn something on every flight as well, mostly what not to do. I'm not sure if sitting in the right seat running my mouth and barely touching the controls is still making me a better pilot, other than at flying C-152s in VFR. I meet the minimums for most of the regionals out there (except Colgan, Skywest, Pinnacle, Compass & Republic), but I can not get anyone to send another email besides the "thanks but no thanks" emails. All I'm asking for is the opportunity to interview, not demanding a job, just want to be interviewed. If they decide then that I'm not right for the job, then so be it. But just give us guys who have had some difficulties the opportunity to show what we have learned from past mistakes.

Let me share the short version of my story to illustrate how crazy things have become after 3407 concerning check rides.

In late 2007, I was hired as a STREET CAPTAIN to fly the Saab 340. I had about 3200 hours including a couple years of 135 time in King Airs and a type rating in the Citation V. I had zero 121 experience, so training was challenging, as well as IOE. But I applied myself, did well in training, of course passed all the check rides and was, I believe, a competent and well-liked captain. Like an idiot, I left Colgan in 2010 for a 91 gig that dried up. I left because I had been pushed back onto reserve (as FOs upgraded) and was making only $39k with no relief in sight. If I had toughed it out for a year, the ALPA contract would have raised my pay, although I'd still be on reserve.

When I resigned, the DO called me and asked "is there anything I can do to help?" That was nice, but I knew he couldn't fix the pay or work rules or any of the other stuff that people who read this board will know all about.

OK. Here's the kicker, folks. Colgan/Pinnacle/Mesaba won't even invite me for an interview to be a FIRST OFFICER now even though I was a successful CAPTAIN.

Why? Because 11 years ago (and more than 5,000 hours of flight time ago) I failed 4 check rides while doing ATP's semi-ridiculous Career Pilot Program. I won't go into the details of the rides (they were multi engine, instrument TWO TIMES, HOLY CRAP, and MEI (which was my initial CFI ride). It was all my fault, but it's more complicated than that. My instructor had 300 hours and, in retrospect, was more interested in building Seminole time flying with ATP candidates than working with me any my partner. As an experienced instructor myself now, I can safely say had no business giving instrument instruction at that time. But I trusted him when he signed me off. My fault. I had a huge personality problem with the DPE, but again, my fault. Other guys passed. I analyzed my experience and think I drew the right conclusions.

Since November 2000, I have had 100 percent success in check rides, CFII, ATP, CE-500 type rating, SF-340 type rating ... like 8 135 rides and 4 121 rides not counting Fed Rides, line checks and all the other jeopardy events Colgan captains were exposed to after 3407.

Recently, I interviewed at Compass and they grilled me for 20 minutes about these failures, even though I passed their special Delta/Fed-ex pilot knowledge test, the cognitive ability test, etc. and everything else I've mentioned. The fact that I have no violations, letters, problems with FAA and had flown successfully all over the Colgan system, to say nothing of my 135 experience .... well, that never came up.

Leaving Colgan was perhaps the stupidest thing I could have done for my 121 aspirations, thinking I could chill out in a 91 gig until SWA or DAL started hiring again. But on the other hand, it was getting really tough to support a wife, 3 kids and a dog as an airline captain making around $40k a year.

Maybe those failures were God's way of getting me to pick a more sensible career ... I don't know. (That was kind of a joke, but maybe not ... ) But the situation makes me crazy. I think about those failures, how avoidable each one of them was, every day. If I'd just stayed at my FBO and continued on with my instructors, who were excellent, I might not have had any failures, who knows? But I quit my job, took out a loan and went to ATP so I could get ahead faster to be an airline pilot.

And now I get to watch while 800-hour pilots who've never flown in a cloud, carried a load of ice, picked their way through TS get interviews jobs, and I can't do anything but wait for a change in hiring policy. But I guess I can't blame the airlines as long as they have applicants with zero failures or less than two in the current legal/media climate.

Eagle was the only company nice enough to at least send me a letter that they weren't interested. From everyone else, I just get silence.
I mean, not even freaking GoJets has responded to me. Talk about being persona non grata!

If you are considering some kind of fast-track training, make sure you check the quality of the instruction and the learning experience. There were good things about ATP, but at the time, there was almost no oversight of instructors. I would bet that things have changed in the decade since I finished. Hopefully, they have.

I have to say I have a little more empathy for spitfire's story than the kids who are crying in their beers because they can't get hired with less than 1000 hours with multiple checkride failures.

spitfire, that sucks! It's all yet another fallout from 3407. Because if something was to happen, all the media would do is pull those failures out from 10+ years ago and say "OMG! Pilot failed 4 times! Incompetent pilot! A failure! Should not have been flying!" And you, and your family, would be dragged through this media hell. And then the lawyers, the letters, the court dates would start.

I remember a time when everyone said that one or two checkride failures, maybe even 3, wasn't necessarily a bad thing, and as long as you accept responsibility and explain it nicely in interviews, it wouldn't matter. Now, I know pilots getting "No thanks!" emails or letters because of a failed checkride or two!

You can thank MR for that. I understand the dead cannot speak for themselves, and I do not want to judge him for the actions that night, HOWEVER, what I can judge on are the lies of checkride failures on the initial Colgan application. No professional pilot should EVER lie on an application regarding failures. He disclosed only the number that he knew would still allow him to get hired without any hiccups. Intentionally hiding this kind of detail speaks volumes of a pilot's character and morals. So now by default, the second the airline sees even one checkride failure, the flags all start to go up.

Damn! That suuuucks! I love these frckin' witch hunts fueled by CNN snippets. Everyone is so worried about their media image, we are hiring people with no nothing on their records simply because THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING YET. Sleep well America.

Unfortunately you are correct and this Colgan thing and a few other accidents put a spotlight on checkride failures. It is all because it is in the news. The worst part about it is there are some DPE's that will fail a % of pilots just to make themselves look good in the eyes of the FAA. I don't care who you are there are some checkrides GOD couldn't pass. Another thing that they do not consider is a guy with 10,000 hours has no doubt taken 50-100+ checkrides while a newbie 1000 hour wonder has had what less than 10? There are people that have failed checkrides and people who are going to fail checkrides.

Mesaba didn't even respond to my application in early 2009, even with types in the 747, A320, and EMB-145, thousands of hours of Jet PIC, former LCA, no training issues, no FAA issues, etc.

Good luck to all of you trying to charm the HR folks.

That's because you were overqualified.

Imagine if even one of those check ride failures had also resulted in being fired from a part 121 air carrier.

Failures after OCT 2005 or 06(can't remember exact year) now stay on your PRIA FOREEVER now.

Hey Tony there is no more up or out at Skywest.

The Captain's training record is nothing but a red herring to divert attention away from the fact that both crew members were fatigued. It's much easier and quicker for the company and lawyers to lay blame on, and bury the issue with the pilots. Nobody would have a clue how to address the fatigue issue. It gets dismissed under the vague and sometimes impractical ideal of 'Professionalism'.

This boils down to just another slow news day.

The families seem more concerned about his training record.

I personally would have to be pretty fatigued to pull the nose up in a stall...like unconscious.

Also the pilots were to blame for a lot of the fatigue in this case, especially the FO.

It's easier to call out the training record as cause than it is the other underlying issues.

I think fatigue led them to the point of degraded speed then the o $hit moment happened and there was no going back.

Yes, fatigue could lead me to getting slow (but not pulling up in a stall).

coming from the guy with ABOUT 500 hours, begging for a job at great lakes, and has posted he has 3+ check ride failures....do you see a little of yourself in this guy? Sounds like he closed some doors for ya.

It is sad that a wet behind the ears guy with no failures can beat out a well seasoned pilot with some failures. Unfortunately, the average pax would prefer a FNG with no failures who has only flown three months to a seasoned pilot who has seen the real world of flying and has a few issues ten years ago.

Funny thing is, I was a 5000 hour 135 IP (slated to be a check airman until the company shut down), and Colgan wouldn't take me as a street CA because I had a prior 121 failure (with a company that failed 50 percent of its new hires).

I feel for you buddy. If you want to stay in the 135 world (especially in Texas or California), feel free to IM me: I have some contacts that would take you in a heartbeat.

If I were to lose my Colgan job, I would go back to 135 work. There are some really good gigs out there.

Good luck to you.

I'm at a tad over 500 hours not that that matters and I'm hardly begging for a job with Lakes it would just be nice to get. I don't see myself in this guy at all and to assimilate that him and I are similar because of a few busted rides is asanine. You don't know me and you don't know Renslow besides what you've read so don't pass judgement based off what you think you know.

Swing and a miss (two times) at big-boy word usage. As Inigo Montoya would say:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yZs3YDVadK.../That+Word.jpg

But I'm guessing you're too young to get the reference.

No hire
 

It is possible that the regional are avoiding you for other reasons. They don't like it when someone quits unless it is to move on to a bigger or better 121 outfit. It suggests that you did not like 121 and that if hired you would quit again after a year or two as soon as you find another part 91 gig.

Secondly now that hiring is slow the regionals do not need street captains. Why hire someone to sit in the right seat for years who is going to be unhappy? It is better to hire low time guys who will be grateful, do not have families to support and who will most likely be there for ten years.

Your record proves that you are a risk taker. The regionals want drones who know their place.

Skyhigh

Unfortunately your great track record and extensive experience will not make the front page of USA Today or the yellow banner on CNN...but the four busts will.

Assimilate, insinuate... So close yet so far away.

IBTL



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My post was pulled needless to say it proved him wrong on both accounts. If people are going to step up and be grammer nazi's they best know grammer well.

I'm sorry Cruz but it's spelled grammar...

Sorry to be picky I wish you well!

This thread just keeps getting funnier and funnier...

Q.E.D.

:rolleyes:

You folks obviously missed the sarcasm bus...

Sarcasm, sure.....:rolleyes:

First, withholding material evidence from the Board is obstruction, a legally actionable issue. The Board could have them civilly or criminally liable. You cannot lie or withhold evidence when the government comes calling in an investigation and that doesn't only apply in criminal cases.

Second, having been found to doubts about the captain, what are they going to say in rebuttal--we didn't mean it.

Dicovery is a powerful tool, gigabytes of emails were no doubt downloaded. The plaintiff attorneys found the key to proving the company liable for wrongful death.

GF.

Mod note:
OK - enough with the backhanded namecalling and things like "junior" and "tropper"
That stuff just leads down the wrong path and off target.

USMCFLYR

So are they going to go after Pinnacle or Continental? Has Continental pretty much washed their hands clean of this?

Last I heard they were trying to go after Continental too, the judge recently ruled they could have access to Continental pilot records (to prove that Colgan pilots were less qualified than mainline). There was a thread about it recently.

Skyhigh,
Those are good points, but I'm hardly a risk taker. Moving from place to place is common in most professions, also in aviation. Flying 135, 91 and 121 has given me a lot more experience than I would have gained had I gone from flight instructing directly to flying an RJ or something. But I think you may be right about everything else. FWIW, I prefer flying 121, but at that time of my life just couldn't deal with the pay/schedule. Ironically, the first two years at Colgan were pretty good. At any rate, this is probably the only industry that pays you crap, treats you like crap and then gets indignant when you leave.

Yup. That's exactly the world we live in. Even if I amass 10,000 or 15,000 hours of flying, flew some Shuttle missions, was Blue Angel commander, etc., etc., that would probably come up if anything ever happened.

I understand the media are generally stupid concerning aviation, the problem is the lawyers. They're the ones who force the airlines (and other employers) to live in some kind of fantasy world where simple answers are proposed in lieu of examining real issues.

One example of that is how you hear a lot about MR's checkride history and his lack of experience in the Q. But you don't hear anything about his copilot's clean checkride history and that she had something like 700 hours in type.

The whole reason this thread began was because of the discovery of Bill Honan's e-mails voicing his doubts about Renslow's capability to be PIC. I think that is far more damning in a legal sense than MR's failures, although I can't figure out how somebody with so many 121 stumbles made it into the left seat.

If you were to study the backgrounds of the pilots involved in every crash in the last 20 or 30 years, how many of them would have had perfect check ride histories? I would guess that many of them were perfect or almost perfect. So it can't really be a factor can it? What about attitude, nonchalance and get-there-itis? Look at American 1420: it's happened because the pilots insisted on flying through a TS to land at Little Rock instead of holding for a few minutes to let the storm pass. That was a judgement issue, pure and simple, and completely unrelated to training records. I could bore you with more examples.

There's just more to flying than what you did in primary training. But despite that, I understand it's easier to sift out people through a simple metric than think too much about their entire experience. Another thing is quite simply that as long as there are enough guys with no busts on their records, the airlines don't have too much reason to interview someone like me, despite the absurdity of the fact that I've already done the job.

If anything, I'm more paranoid and anal about those kinds of things BECAUSE of my failures. The whole thing mystifies me. I can name dozens of historical examples of people who stumbled and fell early in their career and then went on to be competent professionals.

If the regionals were the Constitutional Congress, they wouldn't have picked some guy named George Washington to lead their army because he lost a garrison and was captured with his troops during the French and Indian War in the 1750s.

If they were Abraham Lincoln, they wouldn't have picked some dude named Ulysses Grant to lead the Union armies because he had quit the army in the 1850s after a mediocre career and then went on to fail in repeated business ventures.

Maybe in today's media/legal climate, the president couldn't promote a guy like Grant because CNN would dig up all the rumors about his drinking, etc.

It raises interesting questions about the state of our culture when people (lawyers) who know nothing about a profession (military, aviation, medicine etc.) nevertheless have a huge impact on it.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm looking at some 135/91 stuff where I live in the DC area, but it's slim pickings. Maybe it's time to fly acro for fun and get a "real" job.

No B.S. on this one I'm afraid. The same thing USE to happen at the local airport that I instructed at. The Examiner would schedule up to 4 checkrides during the day and while he was administrating the practical to one fella, the other was planning out his long cross country!! They FAA finally shut him down.

"Thou shalt maintain thy airspeed, lest the ground come up and smyth thee".