You guessed it . . . Duane Woerth a.k.a. Maf54

And if you understand the reference, you are more intelligent than I give you credit for.

If I were in your shoes I would spend more time evaluating WHAT company one should go to work for based on: FINANCIALS (Income, balance sheet, cash flow), BUSINESS PLAN, GROWTH (Past, current and future), TRACK RECORD OF MANAGEMENT, ON-GOING STRATEGY/TACTICS, EMPLOYEE MORAL, etc.

This is a perfect example of commen cents, and btw the exact reason I only applied at SkyWest way back when. I really didn't think this thread would go anywhere after the 2nd post was written. I thought that pretty well summed it up. Oh and btw I have worked for a union in the past, what did I learn? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Thanks SkyWestPilot1, at least someone isn't belly-aching. It always amazes me how many people blame their problems, situations, et el on others, vs. taking responsibility for their own actions. It is apparent that you took responsibility for your actions by leaving an ALPA carrier to join a non-ALPA carrier in SkyWest. I'm sure that was part of your decision but definitely not the only reasons. It is interesting though, that on this bafflegab site, how many people believe the rhetoric of Organized Labor vs. actually doing an in-depth analysis of the company they want to work for.

Sling a resume here, sling one there, . . . whichever one sticks is where I will go. . . seems to be the attitude around these forums. Remember folks, you are interviewing your employer as much as they are interviewing you.

Everyone wants to go to a SWA, a UPS or a FDX, (because of pay and equipment only) but quite frankly, many of you wouldn't even get a call if you had the time, and the majority wouldn't make it through the Human Resources part of the interview. These companies hire educated, humble and quality candidates. Many are so skilled at hiring their pilots (by weeding out the riff raff )that they can offer great pay, benefits and job security, because they only have to hire and train once. I would also have to place SkyWest in that category at this time. Their corporate culture breeds excellence, and those that chose to achieve it will be gone. That is why they are the envy of others (both airlines and pilots).

I have talked to many SWA and SKYW pilots, and it has seems amazing how the majority of pilots mutually agree that these two companies KNOW what they are doing in the airline business world. SWA pilots give SKYW kudos and vice versa. IT's crazy that these two airlines started in 1971 and 1972 respectively. By all means this is not to say that others don't, but it it is most apparent between these two.

In addition, Southwest's Herbert (Herb) D. Kelleher - Executive Chairman of the Board, Gary Kelly - Vice Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer,Colleen Barrett - President, have said that if they were to start an airline they would do it how SKYW is doing it. SWA, itself, has even looked into the possibility of operating the CRJ700 and CRJ900. What do you think that would do to the airline environment? I have my ideas.

I don't get the reference. I guess I am just a dumb pilot. Ellen is right again...:rolleyes:

"Thanks SkyWestPilot1, at least someone isn't belly-aching. It always amazes me how many people blame their problems, situations, et el on others, vs. taking responsibility for their own actions.

O wise ellen... Sounds like you are "belly-aching" as much as any one else. So SWA has a union right? Looks like they are getting screwed. Same with FedEx, Netjets, oh and UPS.
With all your wisdom, and understanding of cash flow statements, please tell me what prepaid expenses skywest has been spending there money on. How does that increase 117 million, 210,000 thousand in one quarter? (http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quo...eport=2&freq=1)
Sounds like to me you have more experience on the management side, so please enlighten us.
Just doing an indepth analysis of the company I work for, like you sugessted.

Excellent bla bla bla. Maybe others will follow your lead too in looking at their company's financials. Look at some of the other's too. As far as experience, let's just say I have more than just flying a plane.

ellen, you have yet to answer my question. What was that 117 million 120,000 spent on?
Its great skywest is making so much money. My point is skywest has more room for a pay increase than most know. Looks to me like regardless of our performance, management has a set percentage figured in i.e. quarterly profit's. Anything extra can be send to prepay on engine overhauls or whatever it is spent on. Also a huge tax savings. There is nothing wrong with this. But I know too many guys on first year pay living on food stamps.

They are called airplanes. The things that they buy so you can fly.

But enough of the bashing from my end. It's good that you are looking and questioning. Here is another link for you to look at. http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/...6557&Type=HTML

A good board to look on is Yahoo Finance and type in the stock code of your favorite or least favorite airline. Examples include: SKYW, MESA, RJET (Republic . . Chq, et el) , MAIR (Mesaba), XJT (Express Jet), this is just a small list. You can then go to their financials and read anything you ever want to know. Just click the links. Lots of good information.

I know, did you hear? ALPA is on a big union drive now at SKYW so management is forced by law to halt all pay talks for however long ALPA decides to continue the union drive. My friend told me somewhere around a year they want to run the drive. Seems to me, that if ALPA needs to take over a year, then they are not too organized for an organized labor group. What could Teamsters do at SKYW? Any thoughts from those that are represented by Teamsters

Completely False. When FedexALPA 1 was on the property during contract negotiations, FedEX MGT instituted a pay raise (Although it was slight) as well as instituting 200% overtime (although temporarily)

That type of talk is ususally MGT hype and PR designed to disillusion the Pilots into voting against UNION representation.

There is NO law that says MGT must suspend pay talks when Union organising is in progress. The bottom line is Skywest MGT does not want a union on property. The fact that the union organising effort is in progress at SKW is proof that SKW MGT failed to treat its pilots equitably. SKW MGT will now start the Anti Union PR campaign telling myths and half truths designed to disuade the Pilots from establishing a UNION.

Bottom line......it is the SKW pilots call. My opinion is that you would be better served by a UNION, but again that is just my opinion, You SKW pilots hold the cards on the Union VOTE.

Completely Flase. They will tell exactly what unions will do for their pilots. (Nothing). Change a few letters around and UNION spells ONION. (Something that stinks)

You are right. Bottom line, it is the pilots call. And your opinion is your opinion. And if you were in the majority, (and you are not) you would be anti-union like 92.7% of America, and SKYW. And by the way "vote" is secret code for VETO.

Unions have their place, specifically, for abused workers. (China sweat shops, etc . . .) I do not believe SKYW pilots are abused workers. If they were, I do not believe SKYW would exist.

Ellen you haven't been in this businees very long have you?

Your entitled to your opinion and if you are a Skywest Pilot you will be entitled to a certification vote if that is what the Pilots decide.

Don't drink too much of that corporate Kool Aid. It can be tainted.
Cheers :)

Im starting to think "Ellen" is paid or otherwise backed by Skywest management to spread disinformation and help keep the union off the property during this current round of the union drive at Skywest...

Hey I think Ellen is great for the union drive, "she" has pushed me more towards a union than away. "her" arguments are shot down so easy.

Hey my acars blocked 120, and only gave 117 to opps. This happens most flights is this normal? Why does it do that?

Then you woke up.

I dont believe teamsters could help you...look at GL they have been without a contract for at least five years....I believe that at GoJet we will also be without a contract, other than what management has given us, for years.

Why not just not worry about the pay......get your time and get out. There are three times as many mainline pilots than regionals. Your time will come.

One more point.....I love doing what I do for sixty dollars an hour. Driving a truck could never match the excitement. I think people lose track of why we do this job to begin with. Its because we love to fly.

So this is why Skywest has stayed non-union so long. Their pilots play jumble. Awsome.

PS I like onion rings. They are tastey.
PPS I also like onions on my cheese steaks. They are also tastey.
PPPS, U to O is one letter, not a few.

If you have been reading thru this thread you may have sensed some bitterness by my previous 2 posts. (maybe not, but I am) So instead of me just being upset let me explain why and then you decide for yourself if you also would be bitter about unions. BTW, before I begin I realize that not all unions are the same, but if it looks like a skunk and smells like a skunk.......
Anyway, let me begin. Four years ago I was working for a large company, we were cookin along just like SkyWest, but we thought we deserved more money and some other things as well. What did we do? Accepted cards, sent them in, had a vote and bingo we had a union. Now we were all thrilled, me included, I'd never worked for a union but it sure sounded better than what we had, key word there is sounded if your taking notes. Oh and btw the compnay was dead set against the union which is probably not a surprise I just wanted to include that. Ok, so now we get union benefits, we go to sign up for our health care which is now from the union, not the company, which I didn't know about before I voted. The lady tells me that my benefits won't start for 3 months (I was now a new participant) ok,,, well I told my kids not to get hurt or I'd have to use cobra, ouch. So the lady tells me that my premiums will start coming out of my check immediately but my benefits don't start for 3 months. I said "when do I get my 900 dollars back (my share of 3 months of premiums, which was more than I was paying thru the company insurance) she said that I didn't get it back, I said what about when I retired or left the company. She said,,,, that I never get it back, this money goes to the union to help pay for the plan! But there has to be a good ending right? Actually no, we went into talks to increase our pay etc. I paid 30 dollars a month for 2 years without ANY gain in pay or qol. After 2 years the company closed our base (our base was responsible for the union push) and told us we could move to another base, the nearest of which was 600 miles away. I had been 5 minutes from the airport and didn't want to commute or move. So to summerize, we gained nothing and lost our base, 900 dollars for premiums, and 30 bucks a month for two years, before we lost everything. So back to post number two of this thread. "IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT"! Now I realize that I had been naive about the whole union idea, but when I got around the "union" guys they made it sound so good. I mean it sounded great! I got so wrapped up in the whole "we deserve more" theme that it was like a drug floating in the air, I couldn't help myself. Looking back on it I was just being selfish, we were making just about the same as everyone else (some more, some less) but we were doing great and I felt that the reason we were doing so well as a company was because of all of us and that we deserved it! Anyway, call me an idiot and you'd be right. I just don't want that to happen to me again. Once bitten twice shy. Sorry for the rant, but I feel better. Thank you.

Ellen, havn't you kids gotten around to percentages in 6th grade yet?

You don't multiply a percentage times a duration to get a new(higher) percentage.

Or, as my wife just pointed out to me, when you go to a 50% off sale at a store, with a 50% off coupon you don't get stuff for free.

So are you high, stupid, or a liar?
(Anybody care to guess?)

Oh, by the way guys, don't forget to deduct your union dues from your income tax.

Growth at Mainline carriers has been non existant for several years. Growth at regionals has been exponential.

We need to wory about more than just pay because there may not be a mainliner job for everyone. If Brand X airline can fly thier customers on subcontactor Y airline, at a fraction of thier mainline cost, what does Brand X need to hire more pilots for? Undercutting each other to get PIC time is ultimately self defeating.


Don't think for even one second that management doesn't know this and use our love of flying against us every day. I can't even count how many times heard, or I've said, how bad every part of this job is, until you lock the cockpit door.

Its the damndest thing, I tried to pay my rent with a note that said "love of flying" and my landlord SENT IT BACK and told me to ******* OFF!!!:eek: I couldn't believe it...:rolleyes:

Just because you love it doesn't mean you have to do it for a reduced rate. If you want to give away your piloting skills, do CAP, missionary, or medical flying. That way it's for a good cause ( a manager's or stockholder's bonus is not a "good cause")

Sounds ALL too familiar. This is the REAL TRUTH about unions. What my friend finds funny is the the majority of the pilots organizing the union drive at SKYW are so jaded and have NEVER worked for a "union company" before. So, they think it's the way things should be. He also said they leave their union crap all over the cockpits for "OTHERS" to read . . .

Have you ever shopped at a Wal-Mart? The line level employess are cowed, gullible, idiots who can barely operate their cash registers and signed up for $8/hr slavery with no end, no path, no advancement in sight other than nights spent stocking shelves under flourescent light. I've personally seen no less than five employees "working together" to accomplish a firearm purchase and they failed, yes, after 45 minutes they handed me back my credit card and said "we can't do it." This is their last resort job, and when management threatens that during an organizing campaign they take the bait hook, line and sinker. Yet all that is beside the point, a comparison between Wal-Mart and the skilled workers at an airline leaves chasms of discrepancies.

Ahhhhhhh you finally get it.
 

Aaaaaah, you get it.

Wal-Mart has employees who cannot do their jobs. (They are paid accordingly, $8/hr). What do unions do? They ensure that these $8/hr employees who CANNOT do their jobs, get paid more AND keep their jobs even if these employees do not know how to perform them.

That's what unions do, Cardinal.

You hit the nail right on the head. You get it. Unions protect the weak and inefficient. (Or as you say cowed, gullible, idiots.) You as the customer, have to bear the burden everytime you want to make a transaction.

Wal-Mart is not forced to keep their labor supply. They can get rid of these employees anytime (legally of course . . . not being able to perform the job you were hired to do consitutes legally), but it's obvious that the labor pool that Wal-Mart has to choose from does not include you. If Wal-Mart reduced their labor personnel by 50%, then they could raise everyone's pay to $16/hr. Providing . . . . that these employees could solve your gun purchase problem.

It's easier to justify higher wages IF you can get more productivity out of your workforce. (as pilots we're limited to the amount of production we can work) Airlines are actually constrained by the Federal Government, as to how much pilots can work (As they should be . . .it's a safety issue)

However, many employees want to work LESS (with no fear of being fired) and get paid MORE.

That's what unions do. Protect the weak and inefficient. And as an employee, if you don't like Wal-Mart, go to Target.

But Wal-Marts are non union, so these horrible employees are the product of your unfettered, laissez-faire, free market capitalism. NOT us lazy, fat cat unionists.

Who is weak and inefficient, the union SWA/UAL Captain doing his best to preserve his own arse (along with his pax) and get to the gate on-time or the non-union Wal-Mart dumbkopf?

Yes. Including myself. And 299,999,999 other Americans. If i wanted to work like a slave I'd have wielded a shovel and began digging ditches at 16 with a 6th grade education. I made other choices in order to avoid that.

Anyway, returning to the topic at hand, the company men act as though they are going to get poorer/get fired if OO goes union. Though that won't happen, it is exactly what Mr. Atkin and his team want you to think. Confessions of a Union Buster The truth will set you free.

Calling ditch diggers slaves? That's pretty arrogant. I hope you don't drive home past a ditch digger tonight. He might have his shovel ready and waiting.

"The truth will set you free?" . . . Free from What? (Are you selling bibles now? ) So will giving everything you have to the church. (It will also make you broke). So, if OO pilot's are NOT going to get poorer OR get fired, THEN why go union in the first place?

It is obvious that you are one of the rank-and-file at SKYW that supports a union. So, why don't you go spill your pro-union/socialist/Karl Marx ideaologies in the crew rooms. Let me know how they are received.

Are you high? SWA, UPS and FDX don't offer great pay and benefits because they want to. You think $244/hr just happens? They spend billions because they have to. SWAPA, IPA, ALPA and the unified pilot groups they represent demand it.

Further, SkyWest does not always hire the best because they are "so skilled at hiring" and "offer great pay." My tiny regional loses FO's to SkyWest regularly. Why? Some have legitimate reasons. Yet many leave after failing the upgrade process. They leave because they are scared of upgrade. They leave because they realize they are too lazy/incompetent to upgrade. There are many skilled, professional aviators at SkyWest, and you I salute. But to act like people never slip through the cracks is ridiculous.

:confused: Did you read that in a mission statement posted down the hall from your SGU office?

Read it off ALPA website.

Stooped over, in the hot sun, with an implement in hand, yes that work would be similar to what an American slave performed in the early 1800's.

From the deception put forth by management.

Read the dang post before writing a rebuttal.

Wrong again. I'm a gun-owning, truck-driving, fossil-fuel-burning, Rush-listening conservative. Yet unionization in the airline industry makes work safer and my paycheck bigger, so I make an exception for that. I don't presently work for SkyWest. I am considering a move to SkyWest, but I can't decide whether to make the move right now so I can make my vote count or wait till after the election so I can avoid the place if the Kool-Aid drinkers vote down ALPA.

It doesn't make it safer. If that's the case, then unizonization in the railroad industry should make it safer too. It's not.

http://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/Office...ge=summary.asp

Skip SKYW . . go to work for Mesaba, Trans States, Eagle, Air Wisconsin, Pinnacle, Mesa, ComAir, Freedom, Air Midwest, Express Jet, or PSA. They'll welcome you with open arms. You might even get an ALPA pin for joining.

You also might want to use this website to check pay scale as well. Seems you think ALPA will make your paycheck bigger . . . . Not True.

Who do you think has lobbied for tigher flight & duty time limitations? Who lobbied against an exemption to authorize transcon turns? Who started programs like ASAP? Who has fought for standardization for 121 training?

Hint: it wasn't airline management.

On your advice I've done so. This is what I learned:

4th year 50 seat CMR CA = $69
4th year 50 seat XJT CA = $64.
4th year 50/70/90 Seat SKYW CA = $61

Currently at SkyWest:
CR9 = 3% of the fleet.
CR7 = 32% of the fleet.
CR2 = 65% of the fleet.

Using these ratios and the 4th year captain example, assume a Comair $7/hr premium for the -700, and a Mesa $5/hr additional premium for the -900. I cranked up Excel to compute a straight blended pay rate for those aircraft = $64. Using Comair's contract we get a blend of $72/hr. Projecting future deliveries up to May 2007 results in $73/hr. I stand by my contention.

And if you think that the current SkyWest payscale isn't a direct product of pattern bargaining by ALPA and others you're nuts. It's like the one kid at school whose parents won't take him to get vaccinated. After all, all the other kids are vaccinated, so he'll be safe, right?

JA pays the pilot group not one penny more than what he thinks will prevent you from organizing. He'd like to see 49% vote for ALPA: 48% means he's been paying you to much, 51% and he didn't pay enough, and he gets to deal with an MEC instead of SAPA.

Sure, and

10th year 50 seat CMR CA = $83 (And don't forget they are BANKRUPT)
10th year 50/70/90 Seat SKYW CA = $74
10th year 50 seat AWAC CA = $74.
10th year 50 seat GoJet CA = $74.
10th year 50 seat PNCL CA = $72.
10th year 50 seat PSA CA = $72.
10th year 50 seat RJET CA = $68.
10th year 50 seat MESA CA = $68.
10th year 50 seat XJT CA = $67.

Plus, you are forgetting other factors . . . .

PAY STRUCTURE: Also need to look at how the pay structure works too. For example, SKYW I believe is the greater between actual block or average block. MESA is not. Ease of breaking guarantee. Lump that in here too.

BENEFITS: Type of benefits and the cost. I don't know all the benefits programs for each but, I can guarantee you they are not all the same. This is income too. You may pay $100/mo for one airline and $250/mo for the next.

BONUSES: Profit / Perfomance bonuses. Don't forget that. Which airlines offer those to their employees. (That has to be factored too)

PER DIEM: This is income too. Who has highest and who has lowest?

BUDDY PASSES: How many are offered? It cost $ to haul people. Cost to an airline for a 700 mile trip is around $100. (Avg. Seat Cost per mile)



Your assumption is that everything is the same. You are looking at one aspect vs. the complete package.

It would be like me saying, I will give you a bonus on sales. Which do you want?

a) (Sales A) x 2% = Bonus

or

b) (Sales B) x 10% = Bonus

Now if I fill in the blanks, it is easier to make a logical decision.

Sales A = $1,000,000 (Bonus = $20,000)
Sales B = $100,000 (Bonus = $10,000)

10% sounds so much better, but in reality it is exactly 1/2 the dollar amount. This same idea can work in reverse for figuring out airline compensation.

I guess I'm kind of late getting in on this discussion.

I think the question is: Should the SkyWest pilots unionize?

ALPA, Teamsters, CWA, Etc. It doesn't matter until you've answered the first question.

Flightbag

If they are smart, they won't. But what do I care anyway.

Wow, you seem to have all the answers...what airline do you fly for? Oh, that's right, you don't...that must be doing wonders for your credibility!