SkyWest Going ALPA?
 

I don't get it. I keep hearing how wonderful SkyWest is and how everyone there is happy. If that's the case, why form a union? If people are happy there, why elect to hand over 2% of one's money to an unnecessary bureaucarcy?

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This week, the campaign to secure ALPA representation for SkyWest pilots officially kicked off with the distribution of Authorization for Representation Election cards. This is the latest step forward in the first initiative in ALPA's Strategic Organizing Campaign authorized by the Executive Board in June.

Several months ago, a group of SkyWest pilots formed the SkyWest Pilots ALPA Organizing Committee to work with ALPA on this effort. The Organizing Committee is urging all SkyWest pilots to join them in this campaign to secure union representation and, ultimately, a collective bargaining agreement. To do so will be a "critically important opportunity to improve our careers and our airline," the Organizing Committee wrote in a letter to all SkyWest pilots.

ALPA has made securing representation for SkyWest pilots a top priority for the Association and the profession, and the Association has committed significant financial and staff resources to this initiative.

"The time has come," says ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, "for the SkyWest pilots to unite for a better future--a future with guaranteed rights and benefits through an enforceable contract; a future with increased economic security and the ability to speak with one voice; a future with union representation; a future with ALPA." (read the letter from Capt. Woerth)

The Organizing Committee identified specific goals regarding what pilots want from their careers at SkyWest and how best to achieve those goals. It concluded that, "ALPA is the only association that serves only airline pilots, and we are convinced that ALPA offers us the superb combination of unmatched resources, the clout of a large international union, and the local autonomy that will allow us to create a powerful and representative union of our pilot group at our airline."

If it ain't broke,,,,, don't fix it. Nuff said.

Its only an unnecessary bureaucracy until you need ALPA Aeromedical or Legal Services. Or loss-of-licence insurance. Or someone to represent you and protect your job if you make a mistake. Or to negotiate higher pay for the 70+ seat jets you've been flying for well longer than the original agreement...

ALPA ain't some mythical group of evildoers in Herndon - ALPA is everybody in your Local, and everybody in your pilot group. ALPA is only as strong and useful as your fellow pilots are unified.

Amen Brother

ALPA+(regional airline)=1/(moral of pilot group)

Dump ALPA for:
S.C.R.A.P.L.E.S. (Scum commuter regional airline pilots of the lower eastern shore)
or:
PAPA: Piedmont Airline Pilots Association "Who's your PAPA now, BTCH!"

Couldn't have said it better myself...

It's about time too. I think it will pass this time, regardless of what incentives the company may be offering.

The time for a union is BEFORE you need it.

Back when SW had 800 pilots and our regional careers seemed about 3 to 4 years..no one cared that management swithch their mind any time it was convienent for them. No one cared that pay was frozen. No one cared that we were working 90 hard hours a month and gone from home for 16-18 days.

Now, it's all different. 2400pilots and more every day. Record profits. And it's on the backs of the pilots and other work groups.

Yes, SW is one of the better regionals. Yes, we are "happy".

**removed comment due to legal reasons -Admin**

ALPA is far from perfect, I know, but we need a voice and we need a place at the table.

alpa is only gonna make it worse

shoulda gone teamsters

I'm going to hold off on forming too strong of an alpa opinion in regards to SKW until I have a little more time at the company.

However...I am very hesitant about alpa and regionals in general, based on my experiences at my previous alpa carrier. I don't think alpa can do anything at SKW othef than f*ck up the current arrangement, which isn't half bad at all.


Insurance and all that you can purchase from the private sector, without having to pay 2% of your income in addition to the premiums.

ALPA might get my interest if they took a firm NATIONAL stance on compensation and workrules, and defined a minimum acceptable standard to be enforced at all carriers (alpa or not). Set the standard, provide a grace period so the sub-standard guys can renogotiate or find new jobs, and then BLACKLIST anybody who's left...but you have to really, really mean it.

The drive appears unlikely to succeed anyway.

What????
 

The more and more that you post, the more is becoming evident that you detached from the realities of the industry and the history associated with them....teamsters as oppose to alpa? Wow! I could write a book about this one, but I promised I would be nice and "professional".

Both of which are services provided by AOPA for a cheaper rate.


Did you mean loss of medical? If you did there's short-term/long-term disability which will cover you if you cannot work.

The ASAP program which fights hard on SKW pilots' behalf. It protects you from both company termination and FAA license revocation.

According the SAPA VP they are getting close to negotiating a rate. Their brasilia pay is industry tops and 50 seat pay is one of the best. If the union is voted in then pay at SKW gets frozen for the next 5 years while they negotiate a contract. After seeing the other regional ALPA contracts I think I'll stick with the SAPA negotiated crew manual.

Is alpa the answer? Im still undecided, but leaning more towards it. All I know is im tired of hearing that we are the best regional in the industry, bla bla bla. For what we do, we are under payed. Period. I can drive truck and make more. Yes we have it better than most if not all regionals, but compare us to any other job. The high school kid selling cell phones makes more than me. So will alpa solve our probblems? past history says no. But we are powerless without a union. Skywest is making a lot more than reported, so how do we get our cut? SAPA where are you?

So why don't you go drive a truck? Or sell phones?

I know I would if that paid more than what I currently make.

YGBSM.

AOPA provides a great service but are you really going to trust your career to an organization that specializes in general and not professional aviation? If so, you are much bolder than I am.

YGBSM???

Boiler, you come up with some of the craziest acronyms i've ever seen, and that's saying a lot in this industry! :)

You Gotta Be Sh!tting Me!
YGBSM

Apparently, the pilots and management get along at SkyWest? How many ALPA airlines can say that? Where was ALPA when bankruptcy hit after 9/11? (27% pay cuts) What has ALPA done that is so great in the past five years for any airline?

I read an earlier post and got the impression that this person believed that by electing ALPA we would get better pay, work rules, etc. IF my assumption is in any way valid, that is so not the case. Can someone let me know when ALPA has done something so wonderful that we at SkyWest should allow them to come ruin the pilot/management relationship??? All ALPA did at Trans States was get people their job back who were supposedly terminated for unlawful reasons. Any lawyer can do that, especially in this day in age. And I DON'T want to take anything away from any ALPA pilot who is serving their pilot group, they are all doing a great service. However, ALPA thinks that when they come to SkyWest that management is going to bow down and give them what they want because they are ALPA.

ALPA CAN NOT DO ANYTHING THAT MANAGEMENT WON'T ALLOW!!! THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE FOUR YEAR CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS LIKE AT ASA! THEN PILOTS THREATEN TO STRIKE AND YOU GO THROUGH IT AGAIN WHENEVER YOUR CONTRACT IS UP.

I am firmly convinced that all ALPA will do is ruin whatever relationship management has with the pilots.

What would any of you SkyWest pilots change about the current "contract" we have now? I have not been able to read it or get any opinions from the line.

Again, I don't want to take anything away from ALPA carriers or ALPA representatives, but I can't see how ALPA would benefit SkyWest.

Ask your former TWA pilots what big fans of ALPA they are!

Very concerned about this at SkyWest and I welcome any thoughts from SkyWest pilots who are pro-ALPA, because I just can't see any reason why bring in ALPA and ruin what relationship we have with management.

Thanks!

I was waiting for that. We put a lot of time and money to get our job, we want to see it get better.
Sometimes it just ****'s you off to get pushed arround, and you want to push back a little, to make a change.

So what happens when the industry has turned arround and alpa is able to negotiate a good contract, where will we be without a union? I know skywest will never give us anything better than the industry standard.

How can we do our part to raise the bar?

Im not sold yet on alpa, just need more info.

SkyW needs a pilot union for the following reasons (in no particular order).

1. The chief pilots are managment picked. If your a FO, it may not mean a lot to you. If you are a CA and there is a "discrepancy", -bald spot on a tire, bird strike, ****ed off flight attendant/ramper/gateagent- and you are called into the chiefs office...suddenly you realize what a crock it is to have "pilot" put behind their title. They are managemnt and do not have your interest in mind at all. And the punishment handed down is not even...(see #2)

2. It stops the favoritism. If you are part of the friends-and-family network, you can get away with just about anything. If you keep your head down and no one knows you, and your FO misses a bald spot on a tire, you MAY get 2 weeks off unpaid! This could really screw a cash strapped family.

3. It keeps managment from making decisions without first consulting one of the groups that has the highest stakes in the company. Example: January 2003. Without warning, and after having promising to pay new hires, mangment just stopped paying. Double housed the pilots and said.."tough". Brad Holt said.."anyone who doesn't like it? Raise your hand and I'll give you $500 and a ticket home". Example: CRJ900's. No talk of pay. Nada! Just fly it. Don't like it...tough!!! Example: Aspen pilots... only a 9 month commitment right? unless the company needs you then its until we let you out. Don't want to fly into Aspen in the winter? Wanna bid Savana/SAT/LAX for a month? Tough!

4. We have spent too much time, our families have sacraficed too much, to not have a seat at the table and have a voice in the decisions. No, we are not going to tell them what color to paint the planes, or what cities to fly to. But are we going to fly 737's for CRJ200 pay? Who's going to stop mangment. If ASA strikes, are we going to be forced to fly into ATL? Who's going to stop them?

You new pilots at SkyW...if you learn nothing else, remember this. I know all you want is that upgrade. Your thinking "as long as I get the upgrade, I'll get a pay raise and PIC time then I'm out!" This has been a corner stone to mangemnts business model. 4 years was the break-even point for them. They didn't want you there-your too expensive. So they dangled the carrot, just keep slaving away and you can get the upgrade. But if the music stops your screwed! You have no voice, and no one to blame but ourselves. We need a pilot union at SkyWest.

I gave up a 20 month upgrade to go to Skywest because they are one of the top regionals in an area of the country I wanted to be in. They've positioned themselves to be one of the remaining regionals in the coming shake-out and I believe that to be, in part, because they are not unionized. This allows greater flexibility in changing portions of the crew manual for the better (or worse) and in taking advantage of opportunities.

Does this mean I'm not open to the idea of unionizing if conditions detioriate to TSA/ASA levels? Of course not, but I don't think for a second that ALPA is coming to SKW at this specific point in time because they have our pilot group's interest at heart.

Having a contract is nice because it guarantees you certain things will or will not happen. However, having a contract also means that certain undesirable portions in it will not be fixed until that contract becomes amendable. It works both ways guys...

The grievance system at SKW works a helluva lot better than at a unionized carrier. The majority of grievances get resolved in a month. Almost all by 3 months. 90% of those cases SAPA takes to management gets resolved in the pilot's favor. You can see every grievance on the SAPA website and the resolution. At a unionized carrier the grievance system takes many months and even years...

No, I'm not. ALPA legal does specialize in airline cases, however AOPA does offer specialized legal services for commercial and ATP rated pilots. I don't see much of a drop-off in quality there. Not enough to justify garnishing my wages by 2% and screwing up management-employee relations at SKW. Besides, if you use the ASAP program like it is designed this isn't even an issue. You inadvertantly break company policy or a regulation then fill out an ASAP form. Company can't terminate you and the Feds can't take your license. Worst case is you spend a few unpaid weeks at home and complete some sort of training.

As for the medical services I absolutely believe that AOPA offers the same level of service that ALPA does. Most likely better. AOPA's membership is how many times larger than ALPA? I bet the AOPA membership is also statistically older and more medically unfit than the ALPA membership. I don't have any hard stats to throw at you comparing how many medical issues AOPA deals with compared to ALPA, but common sense tells you that AOPA has more experience in this department.

Just a Mushroom,

Thanks for the insight.

My thoughts are as follows...

Management pilots are picked by the company at ALPA carriers too I thought? You being CA have obviously been in the industry a few years longer, but I am pretty sure at Trans States chief pilots were chosen by the company. When I started with Trans States, I was in their office as I was looking for a former boss of mine when I was an intern. I asked one of the asst. chiefs, "will I have a job in a year?" jokingly as we all know the way the industry is. The management pilot replied, "you can go to GeJet, they are hiring, two year upgrade." And the best part is, he was serious! A year later after discussing some options with management pilots AFTER I left Trans States and went corporate, I didn't like the corporate job and I asked this person's opinion on going back to the airlines. Same group of management pilots, different person, but actually said that GoJet would be a wise option since I wouldn't have to commute!!!

Any management pilot is USUALLY pro-company! Hence, why else are they in management!


Being a new hire and having no experience with management at SkyWest, especially as a captain, makes it difficult to see things in a different light. It was the same way where I was in the sense that the CA is held responsible for everything as well. The only difference is, because of the pilot/management relationship, guys were fired before being brought in to be heard and had to do the grievance process through ALPA. They were rewarded their jobs back and Trans States had the nerve to NOT let the guys back on property!!! So I think they are in court again as I was leaving when this was going on.

Again, I wasn't around for the 900 pay deal and yes, the no 700/900 pay scale sucks. But, I have heard and only seen good things about SkyWest COMPARED to other places and my own experiences. It appears as if everyone is happy here, and if it will in fact make management upset, why fight that? They ULTIMATELY AND UNFORTUNATELY are the ones who have the upper hand until it comes to a strike! I personally don't think it is worth ruining whatever relationship we have.

You mentioned that management has to consult the pilot group first. They consulted the guys at Trans States with a worse contract than the one we had and it was voted down by the pilots, just as management assumed it would be. Then, guess where the GoJet flying went? Management is still laughing about it and guess who is the VP of Fight Ops at GoJet? The former VP of Flight Ops at Trans States. Point being, management pilots are probably pro-management, more so that pro-pilot.

I just think that no matter what, management is probably going to have the upper hand in most cases. If we can at least sit down and discuss things with them without it being in a hostile environment, that is worth it to me to not have whatever protection ALPA claims to bring in.

Thanks for your thoughts and I hope you don't take anything of my comments of yours personal! Just trying to figure out what is best for my career at SkyWest. Again, I haven't been around long enough to see if all of the stuff they put on in ground school is just a show or if it is for real! Thanks!

It is unfortunant SW managment has taken the attitude of confrontation.

Why is mangemtn threatend by pilots having a voice? Is it because they like being unaccountable (except the stockholders). Unions have been a voice of reason and improvment in hundreds of industries, including airlines and the dozen or so that have been greedy and messed things up are the examples people refer to. TSA/Gojets/Freedom...yes, their lot in life sux. HOW BAD WOULD IT BE WITHOUT A UNION THERE?

Managment always threatens by saying "were going to make your life hell if you vote union"...ask yourself why? Why do they want you to be powerless.

If they could do away with federal laws about hours/duty/experience/wx/mx/age...don't you think they would? Its only because the people have a voice/vote that keeps them from doing so.

Representation does not need to mean advisary. Southwest/Frontier work with their union groups. The pilots at SW who want a union don't want to ruin the place. We want to make it BETTER. Thats the point. Management can't keep making hundreds of thousands a year + bonus + options (AND THEY DO MAKE THAT) on the backs of workers at a company making record profits without giving a raise in 5+years to the labor group most resposible for the success.

Yeah why are they so worried? Good point.
I would have to see a serious pay increase, including our cost of living for the past 5 years. 5x3.5=17.5% being conservative, to keep a union out.

[QUOTE=bla bla bla;66996]Is alpa the answer? For what we do, we are under payed. Period. I can drive truck and make more. So will alpa solve our probblems? past history says no. But we are powerless without a union. QUOTE]


1) Then go drive a truck. This is a free country. As Goose said on Top Gun . . . "What's the name of that truck driving school I saw on t.v. last night?"

2) I AGREE YOU, ALPA will not solve problems. Have you ever read all their propaganda Bull******. They talk to their "clients" (pilots) like they are a bunch of crying little babies and they are "God's messenger" YUCK!

3) Let's watch how ALPA handles MESABA . . . then ASA. If ALPA is SO GOOD, then all these pilots should walk away BETTER OFF, than they are now. I don't think that will happen. So, if ALPA says strike (and the pilots do) and the company decides to close shop, will ALPA give these pilots NEW jobs at their current SENIORITY RANK? I will bet all the marbles in the world they won't. In fact, I bet ALPA will disappear for these pilots . . .

Don't forget to subtract your Union dues?

Less your union dues (5 years) x 2% = 10% . . . So conservatively you are only getting 7.5%. Using your logic. So to get your 17.5% less union dues the company will have to pay you 27.5% more over 5 years. Might as well close shop, it's cheaper.

If unions are so great why isn't Wal-Mart unionized? If unions are so great why are UAW union memers getting laid oof at GM, Ford, et el? There are many scholarly articles on unionization. The reason many unions WANT you to join is to help pay for union officer's salaries. . . YOU WORK, Then YOU PAY someone to tell you that you are getting a raw deal (read Dear Abby it's cheaper), then the UNION LEADERSHIP doesn't get their way with the comp[any, so they organize a strike, YOU STRIKE, the company goes out of business, and YOU LOSE YOUR JOB . . . It's nice to pay someone 2% a year to lose your job for you. . . Yeah, I guess that sounds fair.

Wal-mart, i thought they payed so bad that some citys would not allow them to build in there city unless they payed more?

Close shop? Hey 200+ million last quarter, it may take a few years.

Great if you are in the other side of the fence. Hey I would not want a union to if I was running a company.

Sorry to say, ELLEN has it right! Why union??? I still don't understand??? ALPA is NOT the answer, in my humble opinion.

WHO SAYS THAT THE SKYWEST PILOTS CAN'T STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE CAN SHUT DOWN THE AIRLINE FOR TWO MONTHS WHILE THEY WAIT TO HIRE OTHER PEOPLE WITH CRJ EXPERIENCE FROM GOJET!!!! THEY WILL SAVE MONEY IN THE LONG RUN BECAUSE THEY ARE HIRING PEOPLE WHO WORK 15$ AN HOUR.

I am curious as to where it says in the SkyWest manual that the pilots can't "call in sick" or whatever to pose a "strike"!!!! This is America!!!

What about a Merged List?
 

As an outsider, the problem I see is this may be like having your ex say "we can both use my attorney for the divorce, don't worry he will treat you fairly".

Exactly how is ALPA going to best represent the SW pilot group for seniority integration, please look at other airlines starting with Flying Tigers to AA/TWA, to see just how ugly this gets.

The best contract I've seen for a similiarly sized airline (a little outside the box) is Net Jets. My point is competition is good, even for unions, they need to be forced to compete for your 2%, and once they get it they need to continue to earn it.

My biggest complaint with ALPA is that for years they have not paid real attention to the regionals, and now that is where much of the mainline narrowbody flying is at half the pay rates. And don't just accept the "union is you" response, look at Delta vs. ComAir vs. ASA, it's all ALPA. I'm not smart enough to know what the fix is, but I don't think ALPA has figured it out either, and a little competition and embarassment might bring some focus to this area of the industry.

I will go back to my orginal point exactly how are you going to be best represented?

Great point!!!

ALPA represents Delta, Comair, ASA and what do they care where the flying goes? Whose best interest is ALPA'S????? Is there any conflict of interest here???

ALPA'S!!!!!

Actually, Duane is cashing in and selling us all out... the politician!!!

He actually forgot he was a pilot at one point!!

I would love to sit with Duane for a day! Duane, I am calling you out!

Walmart is not unionized because management keeps it that way, they have about 10 J.O.'s working for them, and incidentally they are one the worse companies to work for at entry through middle levels.

You think you could bargain better without a union? You think you could take on the Orsteins and the Hoolas of the industry on your own? Their only goal is to maximize profits by cutting as much cost as possible...pilots are nothing but cost to them, aircraft parts are nothing but cost to them, I could go on for hours, but at the end you will still think you could work without ALPA. Good thing you don't work in the industry!

Amen, brutha...
 

My thoughts exactly on the discounts and representation.

How would alpa screw up what we already have? I was under the impression that if they are voted in, our current arrangement is locked in? How does all this work?

That I don't know. I just know that the majority of ALPA carriers don't have a good relationship with their pilots. However, it seems that some guys at SkyWest aren't happy with the current policies. I don't know if things are as good as I have heard about SkyWest as I have yet to get a good amount of opinions on line.

I did hear that it would take years for a NEW contract provided by ALPA????

It would only take "years" if Jerry and Co. dragged negotiations out that long.

Contracts are important, but the true value of a union is in your job protection. Airlines and their managers cannot fire people on a whim and get away with it. Everyone that ASA has fired (with the exception of one who deserved it), has gotten their jobs back. That alone is worth 2% of my income. It is like insurance. You do not want to pay for it and do not realize you do not have the correct coverage until it is too late. By that time you are stuck with the coverage you have. The say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound a cure is quite true with unions.
Not everything that a union does is correct, but the collective whole is better than any negative that comes out of them. I challenge you to research all of ALPA's different committees and then make your judgement. Their aeromedical, legal, and safety to name a few are some of the best in the world. Why would the NTSB ask ALPA to work of a crash investigation if they did not know what they were doing?

Bla-bla and KoolAid:

...to the extent this explanation is intended to discourage pilots from
supporting ALPA because they are fearful the Company will retaliate in the manner described, its dissemination is illegal.
As indicated in the answer, most Courts have held that there is no enforceable status quo obligation until a first agreement
is negotiated. However, that does not mean “it would be well within SkyWest’s rights to freeze pay scales and all pay step
increases until the first contract has been negotiated.” This position was conclusively rejected the DC Circuit in Atlas Air
Inc. v. Air Line Pilots Association where the Court held as follows:

While we may continue to recognize that the employer may alter status quo working conditions, so long as no collective bargaining agreement exists between the parties, where the challenged modification to
the status quo is far from merely formal, and is in fact the equivalent of a substantial decrease in compensation having a real and material impact on the conditions of employment, and is justified on no other
grounds than union certification, we may presume that the carrier’s actions were motivated by anti union animus and are in violation of RLA, Section 2, Third and Fourth. To hold otherwise would allow a carrier without legal consequence, to slash to subsistence levels the wages of those
employees who elect to unionize. 232 F2d at 226

SkyWest pilots can rest assured that in the event we are certified, any actions along the lines described in the above Q and A will be with consequence as was the case at Atlas.

And for those who want us to "go drive a truck"...or just quit..or that kind of nonsense...

That's teh point of organizing. We are not bankers or truck drives. We can't leave a company everytime we disagree because when we do it is not a lateral move. We go to the bottom. It works for us and against us.

Voting for a union at SkyWest is NOT voting to stick it to Jerry. We like Jerry. We ARE happy. Voting for a union is our way of saying "we are not going to fly 737s for CRJ200 rates. We are not going to flow thru ATL if ASA strikes. This is too important to not have a voice in the process. We are making SkWest Incorp. millions each quarter without a voice and I say we have earned a right to be heard.

"being heard" means-helping choose our chief pilots (did you know the Chief pilots got thousand in raises in 2005-06), protection from unwarrented management disipline (and it is rampant at SkyWest), negotiate a living wage (Holt won't even talk about pay raises...but he will as the vote gets closer), enforce/create safty measures..(how many SW pilots have flown 4 legs w/o a break only to hear a gate agent/ramper/CS bark..."hurry its a quick turn". ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? A RAMPER BARKING ORDER TO A CA? BUT HOLT ALLOWS IT!)

First, regarding a ramper barking orders, . . stand up for yourself. If you need HOLT to do it for you, then you don't deserve the pay you are getting as a CA.

Now to more serious things.

Maybe ALPA should develop a WHOLE NEW SYSTEM of performance evaluation for pilots. Implement it NATIONALLY. A 15 year Part 121 CA should get 15 year Part 121 pay at ALL Airlines. Even if he transfers to another airline right? Why doesn't ALPA work on that????
That's where the challenge lies. ALPA can't even make it happen.

If Jerry Atkins quit SKYW today and went to work for another airline, would he get paid $19.02/hr.? Why or Why not? He wouldn't, too much experience. Worth way more than $19.02/hr. But because the way the SENORITY system works in airlines (Pilots are commodities) each will always go to the bottom of the list. So . . . . .

ALPA should be focusing their efforts on a FAIR compensation for SKILL LEVEL across ALL AIRLINES. The seniority list becomes a non-factor and the ABILITY/SKILL-SET factor becomes the goal. This is the way the rest of the world works. So, if a seven year CA leaves SKYW to work as an FO for SWA (he/she) should get seven year pay scale. (Totally unrealistic I know). The problem is, that even ALPA can't make this happen (Evaluating pilots on SKILL/ABILITY-the agrument for their existence) so they employ unsubstantiated scare tactics that appeal to the lowest common denominator, in order to justify their place. Higher Pay and Job security. What else do they have to fall back on? (I'm not sure)

Maybe the right to strike? But even that can't happen. Just look at what the courts are saying in regard to the NWA Flight attendants, MESABA pilots, and COMAIR pilots. Even ALPA can't get it's own pilots to strike because the Government steps in. WHY? Because the airlines represent a major fiscal percentage to the US economy.

So what again are the reasons for ALPA. 1) Job Security and 2) Higher Pay. Seems to me that any logical person, working ANY job, skilled or unskilled, would want those two things. Sooooo . . . . . if that's that case, than OUR WHOLE country should be UNIONIZED. So why is it not? Because it's a free market. If SKYW pilots decided to stop flying today because of pay (Don't need ALPA to do this) I'm sure that management would take a quick ear to the pilot group. There would also be all sorts of cost reductions, eliminated routes, delayed maintenance, etc . . . .

As long as there are pilots willing to work on the cheap, low pay will continue. However, some things are slowly changing at SKYW due to the free market economy.

1) I believe SKYW DID NOT pay you while in training: NOW THEY DO
2) SKYW didn't buy new hires uniforms: NOW THEY DO
3) SKYW didn't offer flight attendants an $800 bonus for sticking around after they were hired and went through training: NOW THEY DO
4) SKYW never had Low Hiring Minimums: NOW THEY DO
5) SKYW never had a comprehensive retirement and benefits package: NOW THEY DO

I am sure there are many more, but these are just some of the things that indicate to me that there is a quality EMPLOYEE shortage. WHY? People are less interested in working in the aviation field because greater opportunities exist elsewhere or at other airlines. Eventually, in order for airlines to exist, they will have to pay more to lure future participants to select an aviation career.

I encourage you all to watch the MESABA outcome, ASA outcome, and COMAIR outcome, then decide if having a union is really worth it.

I hear everyone talking about which airline should they work for, based on Lowest minimums, type of aircraft, bases, schedules, pay, friends working there, etc . . . . but no one ever talks about the financial stability of the companies they are going to work for. WHY?

If I were in your shoes I would spend more time evaluating WHAT company one should go to work for based on: FINANCIALS (Income, balance sheet, cash flow), BUSINESS PLAN, GROWTH (Past, current and future), TRACK RECORD OF MANAGEMENT, ON-GOING STRATEGY/TACTICS, EMPLOYEE MORAL, etc.

I feel if ALL of you did this, only a few airlines would be worthy of sending an application to. The weaker airlines, COMAIR, MESABA, and ASA included (ALPA represented) would have to change or go out of business due to market forces.

By (YOU) taking responsibility for YOUR FUTURE, you will be the most happy in whatever EDUCATED choices you make. Even if you think you screwed up a choice/decision, you have the ability to fix it. This way YOU are in charge of your life, NOT your employer.

Oh great, Ellens back repeating the same posts in every thread... What did we ever do without her:rolleyes: Im starting to think Ellen=Duane Woerth?