Of course you guys can keep your p.o.s super premium line bidding along with your iliw, sliw or whatever extra crap "line improvement" windows you need. You guys like being computer jockeys and wasting valuable time to "improve" your line and QOL, we like getting our schedule right the first time and taking less than 10 mins a month to bid. Have at it!

You need to get informed, or think critically.

For a junior person like yourself, you'd have a much better life if you had an ILIW after your PBS bid closed.

It's an additional chance to make a good schedule even better.

I'm not at XJT or ASA but I used to work at one of them and know plenty about the other. I'm telling you this as a neutral party who happened to read a post that screamed "clueless" so loud I had to enter the conversation.

Don't matter what thread, message board, topic, etc. Every damn thread turns into a PBS discussion.

Wow, you need to get educated! Our system allows ANY line holder the flexibility to improve their life, more days off, specific days off, higher line value (more money), the ability to maximize commutability, heck if you don't want to fly with someone you can either bid around or trade out of the trip. It's a great balance because our more senior guys get what they want right off the bat, and the middle/junior guys have an opportunity to better their lives.

When I was a junior line holder I would spend two hours in ILIW, and occasionally 10 minutes through SLIW with an average of 15 days off and 95 hours. How's PBS working out for your junior line holders? Oh that's right, you get what you get and that's it!

One of the many concessions that we won't accept. As I mentioned, we'll just continue operating as two lists until the asa side gets their house in order.

I'm junior and get exactly what I want. So you're wrong.

I doubt that. Unless you like working non-commutable, 15 hour, 4 days, over the weekend... I doubt it.

A bottom of the barrel line holder in PBS will have NO choice in what they get because they are bottom of the barrel. They get scraps and the only opportunity to change it is when someone drops a trip for a sick call.

In our line bidding system, a bottom of the barrel line holder will get the opportunity in the ILIW to swap his trips for all the trips that were dropped as a result of month to month conflicts, training, vacation, etc. Which ends up being A LOT of open time to choose from.

I am an early 2011 hire and with the ILIW I get what I want... this month it is 18 days off and nearly 90 hours.

What exactly is considered junior now? At 5+ years I still have to work most weekends, and get a most holidays off but have to make sacrifices.

I guess PBS gets you what you want if like to work weekends. And some holidays.

Are you serious? Do you think you're in the majority when you say you dont mind working holidays and weekends?

Not one of you XJT guys has ever bid with our system. So stop talking like you know what your talking about, because you don't. Just like we ASA guys have never bid with your system. Ours has its pros and cons, just like yours does. I don't pretend to know your system because I read about it, or my sister's best friend's mom told me about it, or that ours is better than yours or vice versa. I don't know your system and I don't care. I just want us to get a decent contract for everyone. When the MEC's come up with something that they want to put to vote, I will then make my decision on whats better. I don't see what good any of this is doing. Also, seeing how this management (now your management) runs this place the last four years I've been here, I can assure you that even if we have a line biding system, they will still find some way to screw you over or make your life suck. We are at a regional fellas. I don't care how I bid for my schedule as much as I care about strong language to protect us from getting screwed and being able to make some money.

Think you misunderstood my post.

Tday and Xmas off. 3 25hr 4days a month... nov and dec were pretty good to for me!

Ive said it before and Ill say it again. How can you knock it and you havnt even tried it?? This PBS system is different from the ones you are used to. And we have an open time window after the schedules come out, so this whole being stuck with what you get, is simply not true.
AGAIN, from what I can tell, the "legacy" expressjet guys on here are making it seem like no one ever works weekends or holidays with their system. NO ONE. Who works your schedules during that time? I dont get it. As bad as it is, JUNIOUR guys typically work the unwanted trips. THATS WHY THEY ARE JUNIOR. We have all been there. It is part of the seniority system. You dont put in X amount of years at a company to work weekends and holiday (or whatever the case may be).
I for one am a BIG fan of PBS. I have had a large improvement in my QOL since we got it. With that said, I have not tried the legacy expressjet system. So I cant knock it at all. In fact, I know NOTHING about it. All I can comment about is PBS, because that is what I know. I request some of you do the same.

First off, I use PBS and have a totally different opinion than you do. Lets just say my QOL and schedule was WAAAYYY better when we did line bidding. And 60% of the people I talk to say the same thing. Of course I don't talk to everyone, so that isn't the most accurate statement.

Secondly, from the words of the Monday night countdown, C'mon Man! If you are going to try and promote PBS, at least be truthful and straight forward. Yes, there is an open time window initially and also daily. However, the truth is that initially there may be literally THREE trips in it. Then it turns into one crappy modified trip over the holidays. This is pretty accurate and not opinion. At least from what I can see on the 700 in ATL. DTW has about 4 day line trips in it for the whole month of January as well. Good luck trying to trade for one. Failed everytime unless you have something better to drop in the bucket. I can't imagine the 200 has some amazing number of open time that I cannot see. Especially with a displacement coming. Just wanted to clarify that.

Afterburn is correct, there is no open time on the 200 f/o side in ATL. When the lines came out there were maybe 3 day lines. Now there is 1 crappy day line with 1 leg, a 4 hour sit and then 1 leg back to base. Difficult to adjust schedule after lines come out.

I've been at XJT since June last year. This month is the first month I've held any kind of line. I was awarded a relief line, which is made up of all the crap nobody else really wants. I was initially awarded three 4 days and two 3 days with a total line value of 78 hours. Using our system and the SLIW I managed to trade that to a 101 hour line with just two four days, a three day, a two day and a couple of day trips. I now have three weekends off this month too. This month there were 51 relief lines in my base and I was awarded number 45. So I am about as close to the bottom of the line holders as you can get and I still get the schedule I want with our system. Thus I am a big fan of our system, and I'd like to keep it.

I have also flown under PBS at a previous airline. What many XJT guys fail to understand is that it is the contract language that controls the schedules, not the system used to award the bids. HOWEVER, with PBS I used to find that generally what you were awarded was what you were stuck with, and it was often very hit and miss.

Why
 

Why does every ASA thread turn into a PBS debate? This thread is about furlough or lack there of discussion but it seems to have been hijacked.

Yup, looks like you know how everything works then... :rolleyes:

Just to add, no system will give every pilot everything they want. Having the opportunity to improve is not a bad thing. Doesn't take much time at all. On this side, we are about to try the compromise we suggested for the joint contract. Hopefully we can get the other side to agree on getting the best of both systems and "get on board.";)

Is this the open time that is left over after your PBS has assigned your trips? How much open is that? Because in our SLIW (your PBS open time equivalent) there isn't that much and they are currently working on eliminating most open time wit this PBS we are going to start using.

As for no one working weekends and holidays, we are talking about line holders only. Because only line holders participate in the ILIW. Generally, unless you wan to work weekends or holidays (like me), then most line holders can get those days off in the ILIW. The relief and reserve pilots end up working all weekends and holidays.

Thank you for the intelligent and informative post. Good info on the relief line stuff.

I'm surprised ASA isn't furloughing, considering ALPA signed away our 2007 contract, and is allowing 129 (ASA and XJT) aircraft to transition to Skywest.

But hey, at least you can interview for a position there.

Were you there? Have you been at any of our joint MEC meetings? Well, I have, and no one has walked out on anyone. Not too sure where this little rumor started. While there may be differences between the two on any number of issues or strategies, that's all they are. Differences. We're all adults and no one has walked out from anything.

Yeah, sorry, that's not too dramatic now is it? Pretty boring actually. Sorry to disappoint.

Well, I'll try to say it a different way now...

Whole new discussion. All I can suggest to you, and the same thing I tell my pilots - contact your status reps and your JNC folks. They are the avenue for contract suggestions.

Get rid of the emotional rhetoric and start thinking about strategic planning for our combined pilot group and realize nothing is going to be dropped in your lap by this "new" (for you) management team.

Keep your head in the sand regarding PBS all you want, but it was quite comical when your Scheduling Chair was in our offices before he went back and met with his own folks. He was quite impressed with the PBS product and even offered up suggestions that could be implemented. However, what a quick turnaround he made once he returned with rational and logical empirical data. No one wanted to listen.

So be it...ignorance can kill many things.

However, I caution you to talk to me about communication.

The reality is someone went public with false information. It caused a great deal of headache and false rumor starting on our side. I can guarantee you none of us will publish anything remotely close about the OTHER pilot group unless their own people have done it first.

Professional courtesy...it would have been nice.

So, hopefully - for the last time - that clears the drama of a MEC Chair saying something prematurely all up and you folks can move on.

PBS debate - go have that with your status reps, JNC, and scheduling folks.

Happy New Year!

I find it disappointing how many people in the ASA pilot group are saying that the XJT MEC has stormed out of meetings on many occasions. People that have no clue what they are talking about and have never been to a negotiating session. I never believe half the crap that comes out of our pilot group but I figured I would throw that out there. It's like we are just trying to pick a fight. Peeps need to seriously grow up.

These are also the same people that brag about flying "90 Seaters" and are dead set that ASA bought XJT. It's gonna be a long road. Sorry guys.

There are actually idiots out there that brag about flying a 90 seat RJ for 30 something dollars a hour ? lol

No, there is not, we don't fly 90 seaters. The previous post about this is incorrect and I have not seen that mentality at ASA.

Under ASA PBS you would have had the schedule you ended up with at the start without doing all the line improvement exercises. PBS also requires less reserves due to scheduling more efficiently, so you would have more line-holders than 6 under you.

A bottom of the barrel PBS line-holder would be on RESERVE under the XJT line bidding system....

Only aircraft I know that possibly could be transferred are the 6 former Delta/ASA CR2s. How you did you come up with 129?

90 seat RJ but only limited to 76 seats. Also, majority of FOs on the 700/900 are senior thus making in the mid 40s an hour. Pay is still nothing to brag about but the lifestyle(stage lengths, legs to credit ratio, overnights, free business class meal most of time) on the 700/900 is far superior to ASA's 200 flying. A little more money for less work.

Well, I hope that when you encounter some of these folks that you kindly remind them that no one walked out of anything.

Look - it's nothing more than line pilot posturing and it's not necessary and only breeds discontent and unhappiness - all wrapped up in lies.

Now, time to fall back asleep. :)

Mostly what I meant is how stupid they sound when they say "we get to fly the 90 seater today". My point being, it's not a 90 seater. I think these same people feel as if more seats is compensation enough. Never mind the money. Just another notch to lower the bar.

Bottom line is that not everyone gets everything they want in either system. But in XJT's line bidding system, thee most junior person has the opportunity to improve their schedule by trading for day trips, getting an extra day off, moving a trip, getting a better overnight, increasing commutability, getting more efficient trips, getting more pay, etc from the trips that are dropped by the senior line holders because of conflicts due to transition, vacation, training, FAR and contractual violations, etc.

As for less reserves, that is also true of captains and therefore less need for captains and therefore longer time to upgrade. But yeah, you get to be an FO lineholder longer as the trade off.

Lastly, I think he was talking about the aircraft protection clause in the T&PA. Although I'd have to go back and look how that interacts with current CPA aircraft essentially being protected.

If you go to our 'union' website. Under the 'Merger Ahead', is the TPA. Around page 46-49 is listed what aircraft can be transferred to another Skywest entity with only the condition of interviewing our pilots. Nice of them to slip that nugget in there at the end.

Transfers to other Skywest entity:
EMB-135... 7 aircraft
CRJ-200... 32 aircraft
EMB-145LR.... 42 aircraft
EMB-145XP.... 31 aircraft
CRJ-700... 12 aircraft
CRJ-900... 3 aircraft

I don't know about you, but I feel misrepresented. Perhaps arguing over 'PBS or line-bidding' will take your mind off this.

What is the upgrade over there? I'll bet it's shorter than the ASA side. If I remember correctly I believe it's 7 years now plus we are displacing 10 more captains in a few months. Probably make it around 8 years. Then your on reserve until about 11-12 years depending on aircraft. What's it look like over there?

So do we have any official info on furloughs off the CRJ side? Or official info of furloughs not occurring?

For now, referencing CT's memo (all cryptic and all) the can has essentially been kicked down the road.

I would caution anyone from getting too happy about that. For now though, no expected furloughs.

Yeah but read read paragraph 5 of the scope LOA which talks about protecting ASA CPA aircraft.

Anyways, I believe that this aircraft protection clause comes from the ASA contract and they just added the same percentage of protected aircraft for the XJT fleet.

The most junior FO awarded captain in our last bid on 12/22/11 was hired 6/19/06. The most junior captain who does not have to be on reserve was hired 7/06/05. I also believe they will continue to upgrade.

I just keep going backwards every year. I was thinking of quitting and starting over. Since my yearly pay and QOL was much better 1 year after I was hired compared to now. :rolleyes:

Per the Union today from the XJT side:

700 new hires in 2012

Approx. 350 Upgrades

Additional flying / aircraft to be announced in the coming weeks.

This was not an official memo, but someone we talked to today while on our trip.

I'm pretty sure things are moving along a little bit faster on the XJT side, not sure though :rolleyes:

just wondering... how in the world can we get 700 pilots through in a year? Unless they are thinking of other training sites. I was assuming hiring would continue throughout the year with the announcement of hiring more check pilots. Didnt think it would be 700 more new hires though. Damn!

Apparently we're not only going to be using the training center and Hobby, but we'll also be using sims in Dallas.

hmm wow. well I wonder if there will be something official. Why on earth would we hire this many? tons of reserves now it seems. Something must be afoot with the recent job postings for check airman and trainers.

Im not gonna get too excited though.. eagle was gonna hire 700 this year and now look what happened.

Get ready for the SkyWest whipsaw!