I am not debating the quality and value of PIC time. I agree that it is important and that it matters. I am only debating the requirements to obtain an ATP certificate. I am no stranger to competitive minimums and I will never argue against experience.

after the type while on IOE.

See, there's your problem. You flew a plane that was so archaic it needed one guy just to keep the engines turning. "Lucky" for us, RJs are so easy to fly, even a cave man can do it.


As the old salts say, "wooden ships make iron men, iron ships make wooden men."

rightside02 - Can you post or message me the name of the DE you used to get your ATP? Thanks

The key section is 61.159 (b)(4). I think the wording they may be using is "or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision…". While its dubious the fos are actually getting this kind of practice, it could technically be argued. With the advent of the ATP rule we'll be seeing a lot of this in the coming year. Dovetails nicely with 61.167 (b)(1) stating we may instruct and sign logbooks of other company pilots.