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Old 01-06-2012, 05:39 AM   #1  
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Default Upgrade to Captain w/o ATP PIC requirements

I was thinking about going out and paying for my ATP on my own but my 270 hours of PIC time does not meet the requirement of 100 cross country PIC and 25 night PIC (not by a long shot it would cost me too much). I have thought about looking for safety pilot opportunities but I think I might be better off waiting to upgrade at my airline to get my ATP. I remember reading a regulation about an SIC currently employed at an airline can count SIC time towards the PIC requirement only for the purpose of upgrading to captain at his current employer. I can't find this reg anywhere. Can anyone help me out?
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Old 01-06-2012, 05:50 AM   #2  
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There is a part in the ATP requirements in the FARs that reads something to the effect of "a SIC performing the duties of PIC while under the supervision of a PIC" can count those hours toward obtaining the ATP. However, that doesn't apply to most 121 operators, since most of our aircraft require a type rating. Since you don't have the type rating, you are not qualified to count PIC time. So a lot of FOs are going to feel that pain come upgrade time. One of the drawbacks of jumping into the airline game without the hours first. Luckily, I have the hours, because I sure can't afford to rent a plane these days.
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Old 01-06-2012, 05:55 AM   #3  
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I have seen posts on here of people who upgraded with 100 hours PIC. Also, I fly with captains who upgraded without the PIC requirement. They had a limitation on their certificate for international until they met ICAO ATP requirements.
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Old 01-06-2012, 05:59 AM   #4  
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You get an ICAO restriction on your ATP certificate. Meaning you can only fly in the USA until you get the PIC time required to remove the restriction.
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:01 AM   #5  
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Originally Posted by B00sted View Post
You get an ICAO restriction on your ATP certificate. Meaning you can only fly in the USA until you get the PIC time required to remove the restriction.
But how do you get the ATP in the first place. What is the reg? I think it might be 121.437 but I thought there was something more specific.
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:07 AM   #6  
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Maybe it's just my airline then, but I have asked, as well as others I know. One guy was short maybe 5-10 hours night PIC, and was told none of his SIC time at the airline would count since he doesn't have the type rating. On his own to get that extra time. Perhaps they are not willing to do the ICAO exemption since we fly to Canada and Mexico, if you can call that "international" flying.
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:12 AM   #7  
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On our bid form it just says you must have at least 250 hours PIC for upgrade to captain. Which I have. I just hope I don't wait it out and find out when the time comes that I need the the PIC night and PIC cross country experience as well. Otherwise I might find myself giving free instruction to get the time.
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:19 AM   #8  
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call your company training department, or qualifications/standards people and ask. It would probably be wise to get the official word from the people who make the decisions so you are prepared and can get anything taken care of ahead of time if needed, or to just put you mind at ease.
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:37 AM   #9  
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The ICAO restriction only applies if:

1. The applicant does not meet the 1200 hours PIC (of which you are allowed to use 50% of SIC time to credit towards)...

OR

2. The applicant does not have 150 hours PIC as required by ICAO.


Quote:
57. ICAO RESTRICTIONS. The flight time requirements for an ATP certificate with an airplane category rating are more restrictive under the ICAO standards than those under FAR Part 61. An applicant may meet the requirements described in paragraph 55 of this section and be eligible for a U.S. ATP certificate, but not meet the ICAO requirements. In this case, an ICAO restriction must be placed on the applicants ATP certificate. A determination of whether an applicant meets the ICAO requirements does not have to be made until the temporary certificate is issued. It is convenient for inspectors to make the ICAO determination, however, when the determination of eligibility for the knowledge test is being made. An inspector who makes the determination of eligibility for a knowledge test should also determine if an ICAO restriction is required. Information concerning the ICAO determination should be entered on the ATP-Knowledge Qualifications Job Aid and given to the applicant to present to the inspector issuing the temporary certificate. Inspectors shall indicate on the ATP-Knowledge Qualifications Job Aid whether any ICAO restriction is required. The inspector shall date and sign the job aid, and give it to the applicant. The inspector shall explain the IACO restrictions and inform the applicant that the job aid should be presented to the inspector or examiner who completes the certification and issues the temporary certificate. If the applicant fails to present the signed job aid, the applicants logbooks will have to resubmitted before a temporary certificate can be issued. There are two circumstances in which an ICAO restriction must be added to an applicants ATP certificate:
A. The first circumstance requiring an ICAO restriction is when the applicant uses SIC or FE time to meet the 1,500 total pilot hour requirement. The restriction is required when the total of the applicants PIC time (see paragraph 55A, first bullet) and 50 percent of the SIC time (see paragraph 55A, third bullet) does not exceed 1,200 hours. In this case, the restriction placed on the certificate must be, Holder does not meet the pilot flight experience requirements of ICAO. The following is an example of how to compute whether this restriction is required:
FAA ICAO
PIC = 800 hrs 800 hrs
SIC = 700 hrs X 50% = 350hrs
1,500 1,150
(ICAO restriction required)
B. The second circumstance requiring an ICAO restriction is when an applicant has less than 150 actual PIC hours. In this case, the restriction placed on the certificate must be, Holder does not meet the PIC flight experience requirement of ICAO. See paragraph 55B
Read the full document here:

CHAPTER 2
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:40 AM   #10  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrakPipeOvrheat View Post
On our bid form it just says you must have at least 250 hours PIC for upgrade to captain. Which I have. I just hope I don't wait it out and find out when the time comes that I need the the PIC night and PIC cross country experience as well. Otherwise I might find myself giving free instruction to get the time.
We were having the same issue at my airline just a few months ago. Our fsdo wasnt counting the sic time towards the requirement even though other fsdos were. Our company challenged them and won (of course). It should be a non issue.
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