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-   -   Age 67 Rule... (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/64825-age-67-rule.html)

mkitrn 04-03-2023 07:49 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3618107)
Also, your average pilot is in a higher socioeconomic position, and will live longer than the national average.

Yes we take some health hits due to circadian disruption, bad food, etc but we still live longer than poor folks.

https://flightsafety.org/fsd/fsd_jun92.pdf

rickair7777 04-03-2023 08:21 AM


Originally Posted by mkitrn (Post 3618313)


I wouldn't pay too much attention to this, it's 30+ years old and the source data older still. That was the generation which had steak and eggs for breakfast, pastrami for lunch, more steak and potatoes for dinner, and washed it all down with a bottle of bourbon while smoking a stogie. And the last time they exercised was in the Air Corps back in the Big One.

Boomers, and especially Gen X and later, live quite different lifestyles today, as a demographic.

I do think there are some aspects of our jobs which have detrimental health affects, but I think the net benefit of a high-income lifestyle offsets that.

JulesWinfield 04-06-2023 11:55 AM


Originally Posted by FlyinCat (Post 3617643)
I wouldn't want to fly past 65...but I intend to keep working in some capacity as long as I can. I can't stand being idle and there's plenty of evidence that your brain cells start to go and diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's speed up when people retire. Happened to my father-in-law. As soon as he retired his mind and body fell apart.

I want to do a soft retirement where I fly maybe 2-3 trips per quarter as an FO for the last 5 years or so.

threeighteen 04-06-2023 01:18 PM


Originally Posted by amcnd (Post 3617592)
i agree Ive seen way to many people work tell 65. Then be dust in the wind shortly after. I want to be out by 60 at the latest…. Or adopt “Euro” vacation rules… should be able to take 1 month a year off paid.. and then 2 -4 other weeks off paid.

Sounds like FedEx is the place for you.

Retire with pension at 60.

Vacation is also pretty excellent.

FlyinCat 04-06-2023 01:45 PM


Originally Posted by JulesWinfield (Post 3619940)
I want to do a soft retirement where I fly maybe 2-3 trips per quarter as an FO for the last 5 years or so.

That's what I'd like to do NOW. XD

highfarfast 04-06-2023 02:50 PM


Originally Posted by JulesWinfield (Post 3619940)
I want to do a soft retirement where I fly maybe 2-3 trips per quarter as an FO for the last 5 years or so.

Some of the few pilots who will be healthy enough to fly past 65 and also choose to fly past 65 will have the seniority to do just that. Which diminishes their effect on flying needs.
Another reason I don't think this is the boogyman it's made out to be.

I feel I have to say this each time I make a post like this but I'm not for increasing the age. There's just so many other things I'm concerned about, this just isn't on the radar for me. With almost half the pilots out there out on disability by 65, the absolute worst case is a year of stagnation in movement and I think there are so many other factors at play here to swallow up that year where no one even notices a difference.
​​

JohnBurke 04-08-2023 05:20 AM


Originally Posted by vetter (Post 3617554)
Retiring at 67 is ridiculous. The average lifespan of a US male is 77 years old.

So you work your entire life, and in the end, just get to enjoy life for 10 measly years when your body aches everyday and you aren't even at your prime anymore, then be buried forever. LOL.


I don't want to burst your bubble, but those aches and pains start a lot earlier than 67.

Whether one can afford to retire sooner is another matter.

There's also the issue of one's longevity, once one retires. If one could retire and have the same sense of purpose and the same income, it might be one thing, but retirement is not that way.

I've seen far too many who stopped flying and went downhill soon thereafter; the reason for waking up every morning was no longer there, and when one has spent a lifetime living for a purpose and that purpose is gone, the effect is often not a positive one. Widebody international captain to walmart greeter isn't necessarily a good look, nor a benefit to the self.

rickair7777 04-08-2023 07:19 AM

To summarize and put this in context...

Educated upper-class professionals live longer than the average.

Also the average for a new-born might be 77, but the average for someone who makes it to 65 or 67 in good health (aka an airline pilot) is going to be much higher than the average for a new-born, well past 80 I'm sure.

Bear in mind that many white-collar professionals work well past 65 often closer to 80 or beyond. Right off the bat, my Dad, uncle, neighbor all still work part time, and all are 80-ish plus or minus a couple years. All are post-grad professionals. Of course some professions are harder physically than others, probably not too many 80 y/o plumbers or auto mechanics but our job isn't quite that taxing on the old bod either (we do need some mental acuity though).

Years ago it was a known thing that retired Navy CPOs would often die within three years on average... and most of them retired between age 40-50! Their officer contemporaries OTH would retire later; both groups served 20-30 years but the officers' clocks started after college. The officers would then go on to live to a ripe old age like other white collar folks. The difference was lifestyle, alcohol, and purpose... back then the enlisted folks tended to stay sober on the ship, but binge-party when ashore... upon retirement, the CPOs were ashore, so they behaved accordingly. They also tended to have an outlook that retirement involved no work, where officers tended to get a new job or even career. This was many years ago, officers typically had family but enlisted pay and benefits were not as conducive to supporting a family so they were more likely to remain professional bachelors.

Point being your life trajectory in retirement depends very much on your lifestyle choices, and I think on having a purpose which gets you off the couch. For many folks that can be travel, hobby, etc but some need to work with other folks to accomplish some task or purpose. That doesn't have to be a job per se, could be volunteer work, organized hobbies like fixing old airplanes, etc.

In the real world, there's almost no limit on working to age 70. With our profession the medical exam covers most of the sudden incapacitation risk it does increase with age though), and the sim covers most of the mental acuity. The only thing we're not really evaluated on is circadian disruption... that gets harder the older you get. Most folks probably self-select though... if it bothers them they bid avoid it or just hang it up. You could actually test for tolerance to circadian disruption readily enough by doing recurrent sim in this format for those 60+:

Classroom: 0800-1600
Break: 1600-0200
Sim: 0200-0800

Implementing that would probably get you a few extra voluntary retirements right away! You would not need to do this if you airline flying doesn't include redeye or long-haul ops.

2StgTurbine 04-08-2023 07:38 AM


Originally Posted by highfarfast (Post 3620050)
With almost half the pilots out there out on disability by 65, the absolute worst case is a year of stagnation in movement and I think there are so many other factors at play here to swallow up that year where no one even notices a difference.​​

I'm not a fan of this argument either. Some pro 67 pilots are saying, "Don't worry, I won't affect your seniority. I plan on going on LTD for the last 2 years." Who do they think pays for that? Age 67 is really just code for a larger percentage of our pilots on the highest-paid equipment being a financial drain for even longer. No thanks.


Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3620833)
I've seen far too many who stopped flying and went downhill soon thereafter; the reason for waking up every morning was no longer there, and when one has spent a lifetime living for a purpose and that purpose is gone, the effect is often not a positive one. Widebody international captain to walmart greeter isn't necessarily a good look, nor a benefit to the self.

That's why people need to develop hobbies, social connections, and life goals outside of work. If you are over 50 and are worried that your only reason for waking up is to fly tomorrow's Tulsa turn, now is the time to fix that.

2StgTurbine 04-08-2023 07:42 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3620921)
With our profession the medical exam covers most of the sudden incapacitation risk it does increase with age though), and the sim covers most of the mental acuity.

No it doesn't! I have gotten a first-class medical in a matter of seconds. As soon as the credit card charge went through, the doctor handed it to me. For some of these doctors, it's a money-printing machine. The more time they spend evaluating you, the less appointments they can per day. A quick search on this forum shows plenty of threads of people asking for "pilot-friendly" AMEs.

rickair7777 04-08-2023 08:22 AM


Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine (Post 3620940)
No it doesn't! I have gotten a first-class medical in a matter of seconds. As soon as the credit card charge went through, the doctor handed it to me. For some of these doctors, it's a money-printing machine. The more time they spend evaluating you, the less appointments they can per day. A quick search on this forum shows plenty of threads of people asking for "pilot-friendly" AMEs.

Not really my experience. My AME is pilot friendly in that he cares, is available to answer questions and give advice at any time. But I do get an exam per the manual.

Docs handing out 1C for cash isn't the norm in my 25 years experience. There are always outliers, and obviously they could get in big trouble... they sign the same form we do, with warnings about federal felonies and prison time.

JohnBurke 04-08-2023 11:09 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3620966)
Not really my experience. My AME is pilot friendly in that he cares, is available to answer questions and give advice at any time. But I do get an exam per the manual.

Docs handing out 1C for cash isn't the norm in my 25 years experience. There are always outliers, and obviously they could get in big trouble... they sign the same form we do, with warnings about federal felonies and prison time.

In my experience, over a lot more years, the AME's who give airmen any trouble don't see much business. Pilots choose doctors to do their medicals who don't pose a rick to the pilot's career. Pilots tend to go to other doctors for anything of note. Or they simply conceal it.

AME's aren't going to whitewash a serious problem if they see it, but the FAA physical is seldom more than checking to see if the pilot physically exists. Blood pressure a urine stick, eye test, listen to the chest. The occasional EKG, less occasional as one ages. That's it. If nothing reveals itself there, the money changes hands and the airman bolts for the door, fresh paper for another few months. The doctor gets repeat business, cash, no malpractice issues, no chasing down the non-payers, no headaches, no fancy equipment needed, and very short visits at a couple hundred bucks a pop. Twenty of those a day at fifteen minutes each makes for a short day and nearly five grand through the door, eighty grand a month at four days a week, and a month or two in the Bahamas waterskiing. Not too bad for not discovering a lot of grief.

The AME doesn't normally see much to whitewash, and what does reveal is self-presenting and comes with documentation. Fail the eye test, fail the EKG, and it's an easy call.

The AME's who give pilots the third degree tend to be lonely and poor.


Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine (Post 3620936)
That's why people need to develop hobbies, social connections, and life goals outside of work. If you are over 50 and are worried that your only reason for waking up is to fly tomorrow's Tulsa turn, now is the time to fix that.

Who says it needs fixing?

Not everyone wishes to be a social butterfly. I couldn't give a **** about social connections, personally.

Some chose flying for a living because it was cheaper than renting, and flying is the passion. It's the hobby. It's also the vacation; those who look forward to going to work see the vacation ending when it's time to return home.

There comes a day when the vacation comes to a grinding halt. Sentenced to the remainder of one's life at home becomes a bleak prospect.

Life is full of cases in which one spouse dies, and the other follows shortly thereafter. The second spouse has no desire to go on, alone. Workers who put in a lifetime on the job, and keel over in their bean salad the day after they get the gold watch. It's not the watch, or the bean salad. It's being without the job. When one has spent more of one's life doing the job than anything else, and more of one's time each year, each day, week, month, then it's more than a little life change to walk away, and many don't walk far, or at all. White collar, or not.

rickair7777 04-10-2023 07:11 AM


Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3621057)

Some chose flying for a living because it was cheaper than renting, and flying is the passion. It's the hobby. It's also the vacation; those who look forward to going to work see the vacation ending when it's time to return home.

There comes a day when the vacation comes to a grinding halt. Sentenced to the remainder of one's life at home becomes a bleak prospect.

I might enjoy a little more time at home, but definitely planning on having the means to travel, fly GA, etc. Probably going to be happy to be done with 121 at age 65, but can't rule out possible part-time 91/135 work. Maybe seasonal? I want the flexibility for travel... done a lot of that between mil and 121 but usually didn't to stay anywhere for very long. Probably do the RV thing as well.


Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3621057)
Life is full of cases in which one spouse dies, and the other follows shortly thereafter. The second spouse has no desire to go on, alone. Workers who put in a lifetime on the job, and keel over in their bean salad the day after they get the gold watch. It's not the watch, or the bean salad. It's being without the job. When one has spent more of one's life doing the job than anything else, and more of one's time each year, each day, week, month, then it's more than a little life change to walk away, and many don't walk far, or at all. White collar, or not.

Yeah, it can be a big deal and will be for me I think. I got a taste when I retired from the mil, but still had the airline gig of course. Just to need to plan for a transition to something else entertaining.

I'm pretty sure everybody does need social connections to one degree or another... you might get that at work and not realize what you'd be missing without it. I'm relatively independent but I know I wouldn't care to live alone in a cabin in the mountains for long. Social media is fairly one dimensional for me... it's a form of social interaction but a weak substitute for the real thing.


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