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Originally Posted by goaround2000
(Post 1133737)
See we don't deal with any of this bull**** with line bidding, and more importantly our contract language is very specific about it.
I honestly see why you guys think you have it good; your previous contract was such a piece of ****, that anything would've been an improvement. Well after reading both contracts I can tell all of you that there's only two things that the ASA contract have over the XJT contract. So you guys owe it to yourselves to educate yourselves, your MEC won't do it because their lips are stuck to management's ass. So take it upon yourselves to do the research, it will be eye opening. Personally, I have researched the Express contract and would prefer that the ASA pilot group step into it as is. That said, the entire pilot group would benefit from a PBS system with well defined work rules. The main reason why we will never see PBS on the combined company is because the company will never include our contractual language/protections in the system, because defeats the purpose for them. For every XJT pilot PBS is and will always be a concession, and non of us are willing to take hit for asa or management or anyone else. So deal with it, we have about 1000 more votes. The 1000 vote thing that keeps getting brought up is an elementary school playground taunt. If the Express pilot group does not like the TA, they vote it down. If the ASA pilot group does not like the TA, they vote it down. We vote separately on the TA, not as a combined group. |
Question for the ERJ guys. How long do you guys spend looking over lines and bidding? I am just curious.
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We don't go to arbitration when negotiating a new contract. Mediation yes but no arbitration. I usually spend 15-30 min online bidding depending on if it is a vacation month. I am not very picky though, we do have a nice line sorting system that will be bid based on your line pref scores. Either way it needs to be an improvement for both groups. No 89 min bid credit or line 10 having min days off.
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Originally Posted by wanttofly
(Post 1133608)
If you're a middle of the pack reserve pilot, especially at DTW then the reason that you don't have a line is...you're junior and no one is leaving. If you were in ATL...you would be on reserve. If you were at IAD...you would be on reserve.
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Originally Posted by goaround2000
(Post 1133737)
See we don't deal with any of this bull**** with line bidding, and more importantly our contract language is very specific about it.
I honestly see why you guys think you have it good; your previous contract was such a piece of ****, that anything would've been an improvement. Well after reading both contracts I can tell all of you that there's only two things that the ASA contract have over the XJT contract. So you guys owe it to yourselves to educate yourselves, your MEC won't do it because their lips are stuck to management's ass. So take it upon yourselves to do the research, it will be eye opening. Personally, I have researched the Express contract and would prefer that the ASA pilot group step into it as is. That said, the entire pilot group would benefit from a PBS system with well defined work rules. The main reason why we will never see PBS on the combined company is because the company will never include our contractual language/protections in the system, because defeats the purpose for them. For every XJT pilot PBS is and will always be a concession, and non of us are willing to take hit for asa or management or anyone else. So deal with it, we have about 1000 more votes. The 1000 vote thing that keeps getting brought up is an elementary school playground taunt. If the Express pilot group does not like the TA, they vote it down. If the ASA pilot group does not like the TA, they vote it down. We vote separately on the TA, not as a combined group. Transition Agreements (both asa's and XJT's) Re read you contracts, both our CA's and FO's average over 17% just in soft money. We spend on average 1-2 hours bettering our lives per month, in a system that honors both seniority and fairness towards the junior guys, instead of the "you get what you get and that's it!" bull**** system called pbs. Management wants it because it eliminates month-end transition issues, and because it would undermine our work rules. Not going to happen! Learn your terms chief, as mentioned above we don't go to arbitration for the contract, just the seniority list (and we will). Here's the bad news for you and everyone else, if the contract negotiations go to mediation we all stand to lose a lot more than our bidding systems. pbs will never be voted in! Mark my words. |
Originally Posted by wanttofly
(Post 1133957)
Nope. You're in the bottom 50 people at a 1600 person company and want a line. Pretty clear. I was there once too.
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If the Express pilot group does not like the TA, they vote it down. If the ASA pilot group does not like the TA, they vote it down. We vote separately on the TA, not as a combined group. Wrong. The pilot groups will never vote separately. The ASA MEC gets a vote, and the XJT MEC get one. If they both vote yes, the entire combined pilot group votes to ratify it, or send it back to the individual MECs |
Originally Posted by somertime32
(Post 1133904)
Question for the ERJ guys. How long do you guys spend looking over lines and bidding? I am just curious.
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Originally Posted by PBSG
(Post 1134020)
We can 'Bid via Preferences' which allows us to weigh different options and score it. Lazy people dont even look at the lines and do this via a Standing Bid. Myself, I look thru and find 20 or so lines I like and make sure they are on top (Look for commutability, no day trips, overnights at home). To answer you question directly I probably spend an hour or so on it. For March I spent 45 minutes, then the next day looked over my work (Since its a vacation month) and submitted it. Results come out tomorrow.
This is another thing that can't be understated. We are currently bidding for March. The bid packs were delayed by a week or so. And we are STILL getting our schedules on the 13th of Feb. As far as I know, PBS doesn't get you your schedule until after the 20th? I like to be able to plan ahead a bit for the next month. If PBS were ever a consideration for the ERJ pilots, I hope we would be able to have our schedules at the first of the month like we do now. |
Originally Posted by Elusive Napkin
(Post 1134028)
This is another thing that can't be understated. We are currently bidding for March. The bid packs were delayed by a week or so. And we are STILL getting our schedules on the 13th of Feb. As far as I know, PBS doesn't get you your schedule until after the 20th? I like to be able to plan ahead a bit for the next month. If PBS were ever a consideration for the ERJ pilots, I hope we would be able to have our schedules at the first of the month like we do now.
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Originally Posted by Elusive Napkin
(Post 1134028)
This is another thing that can't be understated. We are currently bidding for March. The bid packs were delayed by a week or so. And we are STILL getting our schedules on the 13th of Feb. As far as I know, PBS doesn't get you your schedule until after the 20th?
If they wanted to, they could have an early closing date, followed by an early award/sort/solution date. |
..........
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The ASA awards are usually complete by the 18th. Why they wait until 5:00pm on the 20th?? I have no idea. Really frustrating.
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The schedules getting awarded late in the month is the primary reason I will vote no on a TA with PBS included.
With that being said, we need to educate ourselves. If you are an L-XJT pilot, go to expressjetalpa.org and read the 14 page report from our scheduling committee on all the different types of PBS and the Pro's/Con's of each system. That is a very good starting point and most importantly it is factual information. Please dont resort to name calling on this or any other message board, because we have a nice opportunity here and the last thing we need is to go all Pilot on each other. GET EDUCATED!!! |
never mind......
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...And Joe Merchant (doucebag) wins. His whole agenda is to place a wedge between us so that we will never achieve a JCBA - that way his rules remain unchanged.
Here's the bottome line. XJT guys need to abandon this whole idea of "I'll vote no for any TA that has PBS" and be open minded. ASA guys need to abandon the idea of "I'll vote no on any TA that gets rid of our PBS" and be open minded. I think that we can all agree that line bidding has it's plusses and it's minuses. I think we all can agree that PBS (whether ASA or anyone elses) has it's plusses and it's minuses. We need to find a system that brings together the best of both worlds. I am hopeful that this is what the XJT MEC is exploring. One thing is certain. XJT guys WILL NOT accept anything that is a concession. I believe that many believe that PBS alone is a concession. Personally, I think that PBS with the right rules could be a huge benefit to us all, but I will be skeptical of anything that is unknown or unproven. Bottom line - stop letting one or two trolls try to divide and conquer with flame bait. |
Originally Posted by flyboyblueeyes
(Post 1134195)
The schedules getting awarded late in the month is the primary reason I will vote no on a TA with PBS included.
With that being said, we need to educate ourselves. If you are an L-XJT pilot, go to expressjetalpa.org and read the 14 page report from our scheduling committee on all the different types of PBS and the Pro's/Con's of each system. That is a very good starting point and most importantly it is factual information. Please dont resort to name calling on this or any other message board, because we have a nice opportunity here and the last thing we need is to go all Pilot on each other. GET EDUCATED!!! So my point is, no matter what system we choose, we need to have strong language. That's our current drawback and why we have problems now. I know that this company exploits and rapes every loophole and gray area in our current contract. From what I've been hearing from some xjt guys, they are starting to do that to you guys as well. It will continue until we get a new contract with stronger language to protect us from the abuses of management and scheduling. I assure you they will keep doing it as long as they can. I'm sure they will find ways to exploit the new contract as well. I am more concerned over the strength of our contract and the protections and benefits it offers. |
Originally Posted by flyboyblueeyes
(Post 1134195)
The schedules getting awarded late in the month is the primary reason I will vote no on a TA with PBS included.
With that being said, we need to educate ourselves. If you are an L-XJT pilot, go to expressjetalpa.org and read the 14 page report from our scheduling committee on all the different types of PBS and the Pro's/Con's of each system. That is a very good starting point and most importantly it is factual information. Please dont resort to name calling on this or any other message board, because we have a nice opportunity here and the last thing we need is to go all Pilot on each other. GET EDUCATED!!! |
Originally Posted by surreal1221
(Post 1134900)
That document, while it can be quite informative - is extremely biased.
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Originally Posted by surreal1221
(Post 1134900)
That document, while it can be quite informative - is extremely biased.
You mean in the FACT that when all was said it done, the current ASA system DOESN'T conform/work with XJT's CBA? If the current ASA system worked well the XJT CBA, I'm sure the MEC would have been more than happy to accept it. As opposed to spending time/energy/effort and resources into looking at all the other systems out there. |
Hey JoeMerchant and select ASA pilots, you guys need to get on board. Globalization? Of course we want globalization! You guys need to play the game and help us maintain cost competitiveness. Once you realize that we don't have brand scope, we must all concede in order to succeed!
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Originally Posted by Floridaflipper
(Post 1134667)
...And Joe Merchant (doucebag) wins. His whole agenda is to place a wedge between us so that we will never achieve a JCBA - that way his rules remain unchanged.
Here's the bottome line. XJT guys need to abandon this whole idea of "I'll vote no for any TA that has PBS" and be open minded. ASA guys need to abandon the idea of "I'll vote no on any TA that gets rid of our PBS" and be open minded. I think that we can all agree that line bidding has it's plusses and it's minuses. I think we all can agree that PBS (whether ASA or anyone elses) has it's plusses and it's minuses. We need to find a system that brings together the best of both worlds. I am hopeful that this is what the XJT MEC is exploring. One thing is certain. XJT guys WILL NOT accept anything that is a concession. I believe that many believe that PBS alone is a concession. Personally, I think that PBS with the right rules could be a huge benefit to us all, but I will be skeptical of anything that is unknown or unproven. Bottom line - stop letting one or two trolls try to divide and conquer with flame bait. As long as vacation drop is protected (3 weeks off for each week vacation) AND junior line holders can improve their schedule to get 15 or 16 days off like we can right now in the initial line improvement window then I MIGHT consider it (assuming overall pay will go up etc etc). |
Originally Posted by IrishNJ
(Post 1135382)
Good post. As an Xjt guy, I'm very suspicious of any PBS but am open to hearing the options.
As long as vacation drop is protected (3 weeks off for each week vacation) AND junior line holders can improve their schedule to get 15 or 16 days off like we can right now in the initial line improvement window then I MIGHT consider it (assuming overall pay will go up etc etc). |
Let's see. I used 7 days vacation starting at the end of one month and into another. Got 30 days off straight and did 5 trips in those 2 months combined. Line bidding can't do that.
FYI jr guy on vacation getting a line don't skew the senior guy. PBS runs the senior guys bid 1st so he/she was going to get res anyways. I'm a line holder. |
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1138719)
Let's see. I used 7 days vacation starting at the end of one month and into another. Got 30 days off straight and did 5 trips in those 2 months combined. Line bidding can't do that.
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Line building can only do that if company builds lines that workout perfectly. ASA PBS system lets ALL pilots senior AND jr do that. But that is just one example of our PBS system. Over all the system is good but I admit we can use some improvement. Not so much in the PBS program but in what company can and can't do. To be fair an example is flying extra on a vacation month. If we are awarded below guarantee and pick up stuff it's not added on top like you guys. Which I think is BS and why we don't pick up open time on vacation months. It's not a perfect system but for now with all the options out there currently in use, I think our system is one of the better ones. I tell xjet pilots that ask me about it in ORD to not judge and just wait till it goes on the roadshow and see for yourself. Hear what we pilots currently using have to say and look at it. Hear the flaws hear the good and test it. I was against it at 1st but it ended up creating more lines. Also after the roadshow see how it works out when you guy run a few months bidding PBS along with line bidding. That is when most of us saw the difference. If we are lucky the new ASA XJET MEC will get many of the flaws out by then. I will say if it goes to arbitration I think we ALL will lose and company will win. Lately it seems like it always goes their way in arbitration. So if company really wants it we may not be able to stop it. And like I said, it's not that bad. For us it was better. Many senior guys hate it due to crappy pairings. Our PBS system doesnt create parings. It's a bad misunderstanding in our part and it leads to misguided options about our PBS. I agree our pairings sometimes... many times stink and it seems like company and ALPA is working on that. Our system can only build trips with pairings that COMPANY dumps into it. Blah blah blah..... Again, if you read all this just wait till roadshow and ask questions, dont assume.
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Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1138738)
Line building can only do that if company builds lines that workout perfectly.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1138738)
ASA PBS system lets ALL pilots senior AND jr do that.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1138738)
But that is just one example of our PBS system. Over all the system is good but I admit we can use some improvement. Not so much in the PBS program but in what company can and can't do. To be fair an example is flying extra on a vacation month. If we are awarded below guarantee and pick up stuff it's not added on top like you guys.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1138738)
Which I think is BS and why we don't pick up open time on vacation months. It's not a perfect system but for now with all the options out there currently in use, I think our system is one of the better ones. I tell xjet pilots that ask me about it in ORD to not judge and just wait till it goes on the roadshow and see for yourself. Hear what we pilots currently using have to say and look at it. Hear the flaws hear the good and test it. I was against it at 1st but it ended up creating more lines.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1138738)
Also after the roadshow see how it works out when you guy run a few months bidding PBS along with line bidding. That is when most of us saw the difference.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1138738)
If we are lucky the new ASA XJET MEC will get many of the flaws out by then. I will say if it goes to arbitration I think we ALL will lose and company will win. Lately it seems like it always goes their way in arbitration. So if company really wants it we may not be able to stop it. And like I said, it's not that bad.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1138738)
For us it was better. Many senior guys hate it due to crappy pairings. Our PBS system doesnt create parings. It's a bad misunderstanding in our part and it leads to misguided options about our PBS. I agree our pairings sometimes... many times stink and it seems like company and ALPA is working on that. Our system can only build trips with pairings that COMPANY dumps into it. Blah blah blah..... Again, if you read all this [b]just wait till roadshow and ask questions, dont assume.]/b]
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What is it about our PBS system that you don't like?
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Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139047)
I'm just saying wait and see but it is obvious that you think your contract walks on water.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139047)
Then XJet gets sold off, we will likely loose if it ever goes into arbitration. Negotiation require both sides to give and pick. We can't just go in and keep and ask for more.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139047)
Problem is we have 2 very different contract, both with great and bad parts in it.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139047)
I won't judge and have not said I like or don't like your line bidding system. I won't till I see it run against ASA PBS system. Again my of us won't even be here hopefully when the TA is signed.
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Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139047)
What is it about our PBS system that you don't like?
Our MEC has taken the time to put together information to educate the pilot group on the ASA PBS. Has your MEC done the same to educate your guys on the XJT line bid system? |
I am a line holder and I think it's nice that a more jr guy that is normally on res can get a line on their vacation month and maximize that vacation time off. The QOL argument to that is flawed because the more senior pilots bid goes in 1st the jr guy is just making with the left overs. So instead of putting the jr guy on res on a vacation month and put the left over trip into open time, it gives it to the jr guy. If the senior guy wants more flying they just have to add it in their bid sheet.
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Originally Posted by xjtguy
(Post 1139053)
True, but like other guys that are educating themselves, I like the XJT contract better than the ASA one. There's only 1 or 2 things in the ASA that I like better than the XJT one. Again, feel free to dispute it. There's a guy that's made MULTIPLE offers to do a side by side comparison for the purpose of educating folks. I have yet to see ANY ASA person take him up on the offer. |
"Really, who's going to buy them? Who wants a bunch of 50 seat RJ's? Who has the cash on hand to do that?"
ASA bought XJET |
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139059)
I am a line holder and I think it's nice that a more jr guy that is normally on res can get a line on their vacation month and maximize that vacation time off. The QOL argument to that is flawed because the more senior pilots bid goes in 1st the jr guy is just making with the left overs.
Originally Posted by selcal
(Post 1139062)
As an ASA guy, I'd be happy to do a side by side comparison. For the record, I like your contract better.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139075)
ASA bought XJET
Second, and it's been beat to death OVER, and OVER, and OVER again. ASA DIDN'T buy XJT, SkyWest bought XJT. Even most ASA guys can accept the fact that that's what happened. |
Skywest Inc did, which means ASA did. Get over it. Your management got their golden parachute at your employees expense.
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"Unfortunately, your scope of the QOL argument is VERY limited. I'm talking big picture, as in the WHOLE CBA. "
I'm trying to stick with the subjects associated with PBS, so QOL issues directly revolved with PBS. Though yes we did go off topic a few times. I cannot debate over the whole contract because I dont know it well enough. But our joint MECs are supposed to negotiating that was we speak. "Wow, brilliant debate tactic. First off, you used it in the context that XJT would get sold off due to not being able to reach and agreement. And my response was who is going to buy them? As in, who in this environment is going to buy them? Pinnacle, MESA, some legacy? Seriously, who would buy them?" If I worded it poorly then it was my error but I was referring to you guys before you were sold off. Questions that some would ask is did they sign it to just sell you off? Pinnacle signed theirs and months later they are now asking for concessions and are in bankruptcy. Are these signings all just dirty tactics? |
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139088)
Skywest Inc did, which means ASA did. Get over it. Your management got their golden parachute at your employees expense.
You don't know much about the line bid work rules at XJT, as evidenced by one of your posts. You don't know the difference between a system limitation vs. a work rule limitation, as evidenced by a post of yours. You aren't that aware of what ACTUALLY want down on the buyout, as evidenced by a post of yours. You seem to think that XJt could get sold off due to failure to reach an agreement, as evidenced by a post of yours. You DO know that SOC status has been achieved, right? Meaning they can't just auction off the ERJ side wholesale, to whomever would want to buy it. Never mind the FACT that Jerry would have to clear it with mamma CALNITED since they lease the airplanes, THEN sublease to SkyWest holdings.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139091)
I'm trying to stick with the subjects associated with PBS, so QOL issues directly revolved with PBS. Though yes we did go off topic a few times. I cannot debate over the whole contract because I dont know it well enough. But our joint MECs are supposed to negotiating that was we speak.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139091)
If I worded it poorly then it was my error but I was referring to you guys before you were sold off.
Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 1139091)
Questions that some would ask is did they sign it to just sell you off? Pinnacle signed theirs and months later they are now asking for concessions and are in bankruptcy. Are these signings all just dirty tactics?
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Line building can only do that if company builds lines that workout perfectly. ASA PBS system lets ALL pilots senior AND jr do that. But that is just one example of our PBS system. Over all the system is good but I admit we can use some improvement. Not so much in the PBS program but in what company can and can't do. To be fair an example is flying extra on a vacation month. If we are awarded below guarantee and pick up stuff it's not added on top like you guys. Which I think is BS and why we don't pick up open time on vacation months. It's not a perfect system but for now with all the options out there currently in use, I think our system is one of the better ones. I tell xjet pilots that ask me about it in ORD to not judge and just wait till it goes on the roadshow and see for yourself. Hear what we pilots currently using have to say and look at it. Hear the flaws hear the good and test it. I was against it at 1st but it ended up creating more lines. Also after the roadshow see how it works out when you guy run a few months bidding PBS along with line bidding. That is when most of us saw the difference. If we are lucky the new ASA XJET MEC will get many of the flaws out by then. I will say if it goes to arbitration I think we ALL will lose and company will win. Lately it seems like it always goes their way in arbitration. So if company really wants it we may not be able to stop it. And like I said, it's not that bad. For us it was better. Many senior guys hate it due to crappy pairings. Our PBS system doesnt create parings. It's a bad misunderstanding in our part and it leads to misguided options about our PBS. I agree our pairings sometimes... many times stink and it seems like company and ALPA is working on that. Our system can only build trips with pairings that COMPANY dumps into it. Blah blah blah..... Again, if you read all this just wait till roadshow and ask questions, dont assume. Also, and very important for some of the ASA guys that keep saying this, THERE IS NO ARBITRATION REQUIREMENT FOR A JCBA! |
Originally Posted by Nevets
(Post 1139238)
Why are you already assuming that your flightline PBS will be part of the joint contract?
Also, and very important for some of the ASA guys that keep saying this, THERE IS NO ARBITRATION REQUIREMENT FOR A JCBA! |
Originally Posted by xjtguy
(Post 1139079)
Sure, where would you like to start? Scheduling/reserve, sick time accrual, 401K/retirement, trip trade/withholding open time, Bad day worse day vs. "red arrow days"? 401k 1yr - 20% of the first 6% 2yr - 30% of the first 6% 3yr - 40% of the first 6% 4-6yrs - 50% of the first 6 % 7-10yrs - 75% of the first 6% 10+ - 75% of the first 8% We have the option of a ROTH 401k or regular as well as a self directed brokerage acct where you can buy several funds/ETF's not offered on the regular JP Morgan acct. Red Arrow Days Red arrow days are never mentioned in the contract. They were dreamed up by the company after the contract to signify when a day was 'below reserve staffing'. Unfortunately there is no staffing formula so the company abused it and basically made almost every day red arrow. The union supposedly grieved it, however there has been no outcome to date. The red arrows have now mysteriously disappeared but the day can still come back as below staffing. I'll do the rest when I get more time. |
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