ASA PBS in danger of worse system.
 

The XJT MEC has determined that they aren't going to keep their current line bidding system. Instead of supporting the ASA PBS that most pilots are happy with, they are pushing thru a PBS system that doesn't honor seniority. This "globalization" PBS only takes a 40% view of honoring seniority and 60% doesn't take seniority into consideration. This will be worse than EITHER system currently being used...Contact your reps. to voice your opinion on this serious issue....

Then why is the XJT MEC pushing for it?

Because it looks much prettier than the current ASA system.

There is nothing "pretty" about globalization and not honoring seniority....

Where are you getting this Joe? I haven't seen it come up on any union e-mails yet or the crackpipe.

Members of ASA negotiating committee and MEC who aren't happy about it...

How about we voice out concern about the system when (or if) it's shared with us. Why get so worked up when nothing has been decided and everything is under negotiations?

:mad:That's about the most unfounded, rediculous rumor I've heard spread since the merger announcement.:mad:
Folks, don't let this nasty rumor scare you. XJT PILOTS, not the MEC have to vote YES for any CONCESSION...which includes PBS.
If you talk to the majority of XJT pilots, line bidding is here to stay.

Have you played with the online demo at all? You can actually go in there and submit practice bids. It looks very fancy and nice, and I'm sure to somebody who hasn't used PBS before it looks like a great product.

Just another Joe Merchant FLAME BAIT.

So when is the union gonna send any info out on this? Im not believing anything said on here til it comes from the company or the union. If its true though I'd have to say most folks would just keep line bidding.

You're right Joe....which is why the Flightline system should be dumped if PBS is agreed upon for the next contract. Your system directly violates seniority....but because you're supposedly a senior lifer, you would have no clue about that.


From the XJT scheduling committee PBS report:

Additional seniority issues exist within the Flightline system. As the program approaches the junior lineholders, there are fewer trips to work with. At times, because of a vacation, training event, or other leave, it will be impossible to combine those trips and “pre-assigned credits” into a legal line, so that bidder will be forced into reserve. Conversely, a bidder with the same event at a different time during the month may be awarded a line, even though numerous senior bidders were forced to reserve. This creates the concept of “lucky lineholders/unlucky reserves”, which directly violates seniority.


Would somebody from the CRJ side like to confirm this?

There is much more to this report...and if the CRJ side wants to be transparent with their pilot group, they would share this research that the ERJ side has done. It would explain a lot of the reasons the ERJ pilots feel the way they do about the current PBS system in use.

This is a rare occurrence but it does happen. While it needs to be fixed, any system is going to have gotchas like this that don't show up until they are in use.

Who is the proposed vendor?

Sure, it sometimes happens. More often however, there will be an insufficient amount of trips to make a complete line, and a senior pilot without pre-assigned credits will be on reserve, while a junior pilot will have a line made up of the leftovers. I, for one, have never heard anyone gripe about that, mostly because it's a nice relief for the multi-year reserve pilots and everyone knows it.

Unfortunately, it's the dedication to seniority that exacerbates the problem. Since the PBS system builds lines in order, from senior to junior, it won't look at a preference until it starts to build that pilot's line. So if for instance, in this scenario, if a senior pilot has 2 trips that would fit his preferences, and only one of those would fit the junior pilot's schedule it is left up to chance to see who gets which trip. If the senior pilot is awarded the only trip that would fit the junior pilot's schedule, then the system will place the junior pilot on reserve. This, despite the fact that there could be a way to award both pilots a line that matches all of their preferences, satisfying both senior and junior pilots alike.

Also, I'm not sure how it "Directly violates seniority". In that scenario, the senior bidder had a larger pool of trips from which a line could be built, and was awarded their pre-assigned credits in seniority order. It seems to me like seniority was directly involved the entire time.

I get it. The ASA MEC has a completely different outlook on management/employee relations compared to the XJT MEC. Two pilot groups that saw two very different decades. The XJT MEC learned the hard way what constantly giving in and "working together" with management gets you. As I see it the longer the ASA MEC keeps demanding their way without negotiating or even hearing the XJT MEC's opinion the more divided our voice to management will be. The ASA MEC is probably resorting to fear mongering and misinformation just to try to get their way.

Close. All it says in the XJTs contract was that "PBS will be studied and looked at", which is what they did. They came out with a report saying "Based on our research, this is the PBS system we feel is the best".

Apparently this Joe guy feels hurt because it wasn't ASAs system. What he doesn't realize is that PBS will never pass with this group.

I agree 1000%! There's no way that pbs will see the light of day beyond secondary bid (reserves and such). Our current systems is leaps and bounds ahead than most pbs softwares for QOL. The reason te company doesn't like it, is because of the monthly transition cycles, and the fact that the pilots are in control with our system; thus I can make as much or as little as I want, or I can work as much or as little as I want relatively speaking as a line holder.

So ASA and any supporters of any form of pbs can shove it, we're not buying it!

Exactly, basicly PBS looks at vacation and training and if it can stick a trip or two on that junior guys schedule to complete it does, using the leftover junk in opentime. It is a break for guys that have been here ten plus years on reserve.

I agree 0%! There's no way that line bidding will see the light of day. Our current systems is leaps and bounds ahead than most line bidding softwares for QOL. The reason the pilots like it, is because of no monthly transition cycles, the fact that the pilots are in control with our system, and no longer integrated or stuck in front of a computer "improving" our schedule; thus I can make as much or as little as I want, or I can work as much or as little as I want relatively speaking as a line holder.

So Legacy XJT and any supporters of any form of line bidding can shove it, we're not buying it!

Someone didn't pass math!

Count me as a CRJ FO who doesn’t like the way PBS has been used so far. From guys getting bypassed because of small errors in a bid, junior guys getting lines by luck due to training or vacation at the expense of senior guys, to PBS sending guys to reserve for December for blocking 940 hours through November. The system is far from perfect and I don’t like this crap of lucky line holders at the expense of seniority. “Pilots are in control with our system?” to me there are too many loopholes that screw these same pilots over. Close the loopholes, then let’s talk about which system is better.

Pbs sucks. It works for the rich. Senior guys love it. Management loves it. Month to month no big deal. But any month with vacation or training and your schedule is totally effed.

If management ever wants to change something you are happy with....pay attention. They want it cause it will save them money, and make you work more for less. Hold the line. I'm considering applying at xjet mainly cause of line bidding and the vacation time u can pull off after year 6. If u have pbs, kiss those 20 day vacation weeks behind.

Dude, simply not true! Someone else who wants to crack off on a PBS system they know nothing about. ASA's system does not eff you in a vacation month, in fact, quite the opposite. Most people work 6-8 days in a vacation month (on 7 days vaca) and get 75 hrs. How is that a bad deal? Same with training. ASA uses virtual credits for training/vaca.

One word....CLUELESS

Sorry to break it to you. But in a vote legacy XJT out numbers all the PRO PBS dummies at ASA. That being said PBS will never be at the combined company. That's a check you can take to the bank and cash!!!!

Do you understand that the logic of the system works in seniority order? So you said junior guy's are getting a line with vacation or training at the expense of senior guy's? Guess what, that "senior guy's" line was awarded before it even looked at the pilots junior to that person... When the system is working a senior guy's schedule it doesn't give a damn who has vacation below him. That vacation pilot is just possibly getting some pairings that would otherwise go into open time. And you do understand that one of the reason's to have PBS is to finish up with little to no open time so that (ideally) the system can operate with less reserves. That part still needs work. The vacation and training thing is an issue to be worked out. Training actually typically put's a bubble line holder on reserve because it waste's 4 day's for only 16 hrs of credit. Maybe there should be a virtual credit put on training day's just for bidding purposes to keep that from happening. The vacation thing ****es a lot of junior line holders off until they get put on reserve and have a vacation month come up, then they love it. I wouldn't mind if there was something put into the contract that if you wanted to do a 65 hour month then you will just get paid 65 hours of credit rather than guarantee. Management is so upset with 65 hr vacation months getting guarantee pay and they claim it requires them to staff much higher to cover what is left behind from the senior guy's with up to 8 possible 65 hour months. If someone want's to take a break with a 65 hour month then they would have to weigh the smaller than guarantee paycheck that month in exchange for all that time off. I find it good enough to get 4 hrs of pay while I'm sitting possibly on an island or something somewhere. I'm sure the next couple of replies will be from those who swear the most possible soft credit at the highest hourly rate is the only thing exceptable, but that's not how you run a profitable business...

You must be 15. Dummies? You for real?

When negotiations fail and arbitration begins, good luck on your vote counting for s#@t!

Why would anyone want a concession?
PBS = Concession

Hey guys relax, we are all on the same team, aren't we? We are in joint contract negotiations, how can we expect to get any gains when we can't come to the table unified. I'm sure management is licking their chops to see us divide ourselves so they can conquer. But to go back to the topic of PBS, ASA management wants to get rid of our vacation low, which allows us to work 6-8 days and credit 75 hrs, in the worst kind of way, and possibly terminating the whole system because it isnt working in their favor, but contractually they can't. We all want the best quality of life but if we push too hard against each other we all will be working 12-15 days on every vacation month. I will be the first to admit that Xjt bidding is sweet, bid conflict and get paid for both ends, trip drop and premium pickup etc. however, I have a hard time believing it will remain. In the interest of all of us, we need to foster lines of communication that aid in providing accurate information, not name calling. So can someone tell me why they think we can get the current xjt system through, without major concessions in other areas? And if it's not realistic, isn't it smart to take option 1a , which is better than most regionals and even some legacies, and not have to give concessions in this aspect of the contract, and focus our demands on other areas?.

Banshee, I understand that the "logic" works in seniority order. I was giving you 3 examples of the reverse happening. It's frustrating when you are the one getting screwed, our system has more the one way of doing that. Being a middle of the pack reserve in DTW I'm tired of hearing the good about PBS when I hear and see the opposite when I go to work. Only been here since April and 3 times people junior to me were awarded lines. I'm not arguing why the system did that, I am saying I don't like logic behind it. The fun part comes when I try to explain to my friends at other companies why I didn't get a line yet again. All I get is raised eyebrows and the "that's not right" look. I'm not going to argue for a system that has blatant and glaring drawbacks.

You serious..? I think you're confusing a stagnant seniority list and reductions in flying with PBS issues. If you're a middle of the pack reserve pilot, especially at DTW then the reason that you don't have a line is...you're junior and no one is leaving. If you were in ATL...you would be on reserve. If you were at IAD...you would be on reserve. Are you seriously saying that you DON'T like the one part of the system that actually benefits you? So one more time, just to be clear, if you are a reserve pilot and someone junior to you is awarded a line, it was not at your expense. It's simply not possible. They were awarded a line after your schedule was created. They were awarded a line because A) they had preassigned credits that allowed them to reach their min credit with fewer trips; B) you did not select "award all pairings before reserve" or C) the pre assigned credits which you selected could not create a full schedule with the trips that were left over at your seniority. Trust me, I know it sucks but remember, what goes around, comes around. A few times a year it will be your turn to benefit from the system. Maybe someday we'll see some movement on this side of the company and it won't be an issue.

The training part of PBS needs a major overhaul. Having to do AQP and only receiving 16 hours for 4 days really screws your schedule, especially if you have it during the summer when the window is higher. At a minimum we need 20 hrs, prolly more like 22.

No this goes back well into 2011, before the flying was reduced for 2012. And it happens in ATL. It just goes relatively unnoticed to most pilots because you have to be on the cusp each month to be affected by it. The problem is, we are all the same pilots month to month dealing with it because there is no movement here.

one month last year, I had vacation and people below me got a line because "the week I had vacation conflicted with the remaining open time pairings, causing me to be bumped down to reserve"
more recently, appx 15 people junior to me received lines because my carry over trip conflicted with "all remaining pairing solutions" thus having the junior line holders to me "winning the lottery." And yes, I selected all remaining pairings, had multiple bid sheets, and had more pre-assigned credits in BOTH cases than the pilots below me.

On a jag, Reserve coverage with PBS has been way too high and lurked in the 20% range until the last 2 months. Reserve rules are almost non existent with the loopholes in the contract. Now this month there are no long call reserve lines that have weekends off. If you want one weekend off, you have to work the other weekends. Unreal.

Missed the point did you?

See we don't deal with any of this bull**** with line bidding, and more importantly our contract language is very specific about it.

I honestly see why you guys think you have it good; your previous contract was such a piece of ****, that anything would've been an improvement. Well after reading both contracts I can tell all of you that there's only two things that the ASA contract have over the XJT contract. So you guys owe it to yourselves to educate yourselves, your MEC won't do it because their lips are stuck to management's ass. So take it upon yourselves to do the research, it will be eye opening.

The main reason why we will never see PBS on the combined company is because the company will never include our contractual language/protections in the system, because defeats the purpose for them. For every XJT pilot PBS is and will always be a concession, and non of us are willing to take hit for asa or management or anyone else. So deal with it, we have about 1000 more votes.

Well said Sir, Asa guys love the kool aid. PBS will never go thru. The things you Asa guys are now able to do with PBS we have been doing for years with our line bid system. PBS only works in managements favor. I guess you guys think your management.

Agree with this 100%, not cool if you're continually going to be scheduled for training in June/July/August.

Not a factual statement.

Let me guess, on another message board, you go by 777forever?