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No Pay Raise for RAH FOs
It has been noted that RAH management has backed down from its proposed FO raises that were suppose to take effect April 01.
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Guess I better return my new Bentley.
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guess mom cant have that operation now..
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22.95/hr for new hires. Ouch!
Might as well wait to apply when we have a new contract. |
What do CAs/FOs top out at flying the E-190? Jetblue tops out at $143/$97 respectively for the same airplane.
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approximately $50 less per hour...
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E190 FO rate:
RAH 5 years $36.62 minus cancelation subtractions....JBU 5 year $82 plus soft money increases. |
Originally Posted by JetBlast77
(Post 1159378)
What do CAs/FOs top out at flying the E-190? Jetblue tops out at $143/$97 respectively for the same airplane.
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Originally Posted by MusicPilot
(Post 1159356)
It has been noted that RAH management has backed down from its proposed FO raises that were suppose to take effect April 01.
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Not trying to stir the pot but I'm sure the guys/gals at RAH saw this coming.
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Probably to much heat from the union.
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Originally Posted by blakman7
(Post 1159440)
Not trying to stir the pot but I'm sure the guys/gals at RAH saw this coming.
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Originally Posted by sticky
(Post 1159384)
E190 FO rate:
RAH 5 years $36.62 minus cancelation subtractions....JBU 5 year $82 plus soft money increases. |
The Company imposed pay raise is a direct violation of the RLA status quo protections that exist during contract negotiations. If they had actually implemented the pay raises (outside of a mutually agreed upon contract), it would have been viewed as company "self help" and would have resulted in the union being released to self help (most likely) WITHOUT a 30 day cool off period. With over 98% of the RAH pilot group voting in favor of a strike, is there any doubt as to what would have happened next?
They knew from the moment they made the offer that they could not legally follow through with it. It was a knee jerk reaction to get applicants in the door and in training before they had to reverse it. Their next move will be to blame the IBT for not being able to "do the right thing" by raising their FO pay rates above the level that qualifies a family of four for food stamps assistance. The time "to do the right thing" came and went over four years ago when the contract expired in 2007. I've got my popcorn out.., lets see in what way the company will step on their collective dicks in the coming weeks. Anybody care to guess, there's a few more plays in BB's play book left to go lol! RAH management is a classic display of LEADERSHIP BY LACK OF EXAMPLE! They're an embarrasement to those of us who have had to work here these past years under RAH exploitation during this recession. Now that hiring is just beginning at several carriers, attrition is at an all time high with 10 to 30 pilots per month leaving as fast as they can for better jobs. WITH MANY MORE TO FOLLOW. Is this who you want to work for? Best of luck to us all in dealing with these schoolyard bullies. |
Originally Posted by Trogdor
(Post 1159458)
But it's ok, because you can tell girls at the bar that you fly a "big" airplane. Right before you realize you "forgot" your wallet and she has to pay for the drinks.
As for RAH. I hope no one applies to this dump--At least until we get a good contract. I'm not holding my breath, though. It's a regional (always will be), and the contract will reflect that. |
God Bless,
Bryan |
Originally Posted by Trogdor
(Post 1159458)
Right before you realize you "forgot" your wallet and she has to pay for the drinks.
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Originally Posted by Boomer
(Post 1159531)
Oh crap, my wallet is also where I keep my Jimmyhats.
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Devils advocate....
Why not sign an LOA for the new FO rates (company ask) in exchange for __________ (union ask)? Surely someone on property has come to the realization that the NMB might not release you and the company might not give in to your every demand. I remember a lot of people claiming that a strike would occur by Christmas 2011. I keep hearing "strike" and "jet blue rates", but no one is talking about the parking of aircraft and pay cuts at other FFD carriers. I wish you luck with your negotiations, but i have to ask, will you still be patting yourself on the back for turning down a pay raise if/when you find yourself in the same spot this time next year? No sections TA'd, no closer to release (there is no correlation between time spent in mediation and release, some groups have been released very early like the spirit pilots while others have been in mediation for years like the AA FA's), eagle decimated (you saw they are closing the rock, right?), pinnacle pay cuts, $3.30+ a gallon fuel..... Challenging times. I wonder if your E-Board and NC have allowed expectations to get so unrealistic for such a prolonged period of time that they have backed themselves (and the membership) into a corner. You all appear to be waiting for the "perfect" deal. Unfortunately, those deals do not exist. Often, by the time this realization occurs, even an "ok" has already sailed away into the sunset. The union's sole attempt at creating leverage where there is none is the "don't work here" campaign. This may dissuade the lateral move "regional to regional" guys but you will never convince a flight instructor to turn down the job. Again, I would love for you guys to get JetBlue +1 tomorrow, but from the outside looking in it appears that you guys are exactly where you were back in October 2007. In other words, you have achieved nothing in almost five years. |
I agree with the last poster. First year pay raise being rescinded only hurts the fellow pilots that are jumping ship from their current employer due to furlough/stagnation or even being put out of business. I don't see any regionals having issues filling their new hire classes. Even the lower paying regionals ( as ironic as it may sound ) are doing fine filling classes. I'm sure things will change in a year or two but as of now, raising first year pay feels like a freebie that the union and the NC could've used to their advantage. I doubt the management is losing sleep over this. Like the post above, any CFI or banner tower/ bottom cargo guys will jump at the opportunity to get on with RAH. Pressure should not be put on the potential new hires but rather be put on the NC to get released from mediation since the company is blatantly dragging their feet. I got few friends at RAH and I Jumpseat once in a while and everyone I know there and the people I've met are great guys. It can be the top desired regional again so don't blame people for trying to get on as early as they can. It makes a huge difference in upgrading/schedule/rsv/furlough. I've learned the hard way that by pushing my class date back 2 months for personal reasons costed me 1.5 years extra on furlough.
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Go UNION! Low pay til the last day!
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Originally Posted by zoooropa:1159565
Devils advocate....
Why not sign an LOA for the new FO rates (company ask) in exchange for __________ (union ask)? Surely someone on property has come to the realization that the NMB might not release you and the company might not give in to your every demand. I remember a lot of people claiming that a strike would occur by Christmas 2011. I keep hearing "strike" and "jet blue rates", but no one is talking about the parking of aircraft and pay cuts at other FFD carriers. I wish you luck with your negotiations, but i have to ask, will you still be patting yourself on the back for turning down a pay raise if/when you find yourself in the same spot this time next year? No sections TA'd, no closer to release (there is no correlation between time spent in mediation and release, some groups have been released very early like the spirit pilots while others have been in mediation for years like the AA FA's), eagle decimated (you saw they are closing the rock, right?), pinnacle pay cuts, $3.30+ a gallon fuel..... Challenging times. I wonder if your E-Board and NC have allowed expectations to get so unrealistic for such a prolonged period of time that they have backed themselves (and the membership) into a corner. You all appear to be waiting for the "perfect" deal. Unfortunately, those deals do not exist. Often, by the time this realization occurs, even an "ok" has already sailed away into the sunset. The union's sole attempt at creating leverage where there is none is the "don't work here" campaign. This may dissuade the lateral move "regional to regional" guys but you will never convince a flight instructor to turn down the job. Again, I would love for you guys to get JetBlue +1 tomorrow, but from the outside looking in it appears that you guys are exactly where you were back in October 2007. In other words, you have achieved nothing in almost five years. No LOA was offered. This was nothing more than a play to turn the FOs against the union. The company never had any intention of actually implementing these rates. If they did, they would have offered the LOA you speak of. Im very glad you are not negotiating on our behalf. Even with cuts coming at just one regional (pinnacle agreed to nothing) we are still at the bottom of the regional industry. Just accepting the company's offer as you would like to see, we would still be below average. There is absolutely nothing wrong with fighting for fair pay and work rules, no matter how long it takes. We do NO ONE in this industry any favors by not fighting and thus, lowering the bar for everyone who enters section 6 in the coming years. |
(no direct dog in this fight, and I wish the best for the RAH folks)
Giving a pay raise to 10% of the people while negotiating a contract means management will have 10% of the vote going into a TA. So let's say the TA is marginal: under normal circumstances it may fail, but with all the FNGs voting "Yes" it could pass. With the buying-of-votes management is doing now, the group could end up with a Worse CBA than if there were no new hire pay raise. In any event, the raise WILL NOT yield a better contract. At best, it would be a break even. Essentially, management is offering a "Zero down, No payments for three months" contract. They are selling you a car "for nothing" hoping you don't notice the 29% interest rate the remaining five years. |
Can one vote on a contract under probation? I thought you had to wait a year. And if you've been around for year, one should have a fairly good idea what's good and bad at the company. I don't think management was trying to turn the brand new hire FOs against the union nor were they trying to buy their way into the 10% of the pilot group that can't even vote in the first place. My 2 cents. But I've been corrected many times before :)
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Originally Posted by sticky
(Post 1159384)
E190 FO rate:
RAH 5 years $36.62 minus cancelation subtractions....JBU 5 year $82 plus soft money increases. Ouch! I made more on the Saab 340 by year three! Good luck guys/gals hope your able to get substantial raises/improvements in your new contract. A contract before raises was and is the correct way to go in my opinion. |
The company is saying that the Union was all for the raises and then changed their minds. The company's response to the failed pay raise was giving the RAH pilots the coresponding letters between the union, company, and both lawyers, about the pay raise issue. Interesting tactic IMO, since they usually write a response. They basically told the pilots to draw their own conclusion.
I've been in this business for many years and seen first hand the strategies of both ALPA and the IBT. This issue is probably one of the most interesting issues I've seen and it's probably going to be a wild ride to the end. Its kinda like watching hockey. You try to keep up with the puck then a guy gets checked into the boards, followed by high sticking, a few in the penalty box, now a power play, and finally a shot to the net. Good goalie and defenders? Maybe the shot goes in, maybe not. 3 periods last a while. Can't wait to see how this one plays out. |
Originally Posted by zoooropa
(Post 1159565)
Devils advocate....
Why not sign an LOA for the new FO rates (company ask) in exchange for __________ (union ask)? Surely someone on property has come to the realization that the NMB might not release you and the company might not give in to your every demand. I remember a lot of people claiming that a strike would occur by Christmas 2011. I keep hearing "strike" and "jet blue rates", but no one is talking about the parking of aircraft and pay cuts at other FFD carriers. I wish you luck with your negotiations, but i have to ask, will you still be patting yourself on the back for turning down a pay raise if/when you find yourself in the same spot this time next year? No sections TA'd, no closer to release (there is no correlation between time spent in mediation and release, some groups have been released very early like the spirit pilots while others have been in mediation for years like the AA FA's), eagle decimated (you saw they are closing the rock, right?), pinnacle pay cuts, $3.30+ a gallon fuel..... Challenging times. I wonder if your E-Board and NC have allowed expectations to get so unrealistic for such a prolonged period of time that they have backed themselves (and the membership) into a corner. You all appear to be waiting for the "perfect" deal. Unfortunately, those deals do not exist. Often, by the time this realization occurs, even an "ok" has already sailed away into the sunset. The union's sole attempt at creating leverage where there is none is the "don't work here" campaign. This may dissuade the lateral move "regional to regional" guys but you will never convince a flight instructor to turn down the job. Again, I would love for you guys to get JetBlue +1 tomorrow, but from the outside looking in it appears that you guys are exactly where you were back in October 2007. In other words, you have achieved nothing in almost five years. However, with that being said an extra $378 per month on a pay rate that is 3-5 dollars an hour less than my peers, after the pay raise, is a slap in the face. What good is that money if we are still being treated like garbage an enacted payraise LOA would only serve to drag out negotiations longer for what really matters, QOL issues. I could lose that extra $378 in one day in EWR becasue we don't have cancelation pay, even if a flight gets re-crewed because we are late, we dont get paid for it. Alot of pilots have blinders on and only see the hourly rate and not whats behind it. QOL and "soft pay" is 75% of what I am looking for in this contract and pay is the last 25%. With the right QOL and "soft pay" in a contract you can make a lower pay scale work out just fine. For the record the only thing we are looking for Jet Blue pay rates on is the 190 we are well aware that a 70 seater and a 50 seaters pay should be within reason but none of us are going to vote for anything that is not industry leading in ALL areas. We are NOT goign to let the company drag this out any longer by giving them things away from the negotiations table especially things that are not a real option in most pilots view. Stay tuned its almost over. |
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
(Post 1159671)
For the record the only thing we are looking for Jet Blue pay rates on is the 190
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Originally Posted by ridered
(Post 1159674)
Ah hello....Jet Blue is a MAIN LINE operation, not FFD regional, good luck....the money pie is only so big, so it's down to how you want to cut the pie up.....
Our 190s are mainline too. If you havent noticed they say FRONTIER on the side and make no mention of express and we don't fly them for any other legacy becasuse we can't. We pay for the fuel, crew, MX, leases, gates, landing fees, and everything else that comes with hauling a passenger, there is nothing Fixed Fee about the 190 operation. In our eyes its a MAIN LINE operation so we should be paid MAIN LINE rates. |
Originally Posted by ridered
(Post 1159674)
Ah hello....Jet Blue is a MAIN LINE operation, not FFD regional, good luck....the money pie is only so big, so it's down to how you want to cut the pie up.....
Too bad United never thought of introducing the 737/319 as a feeder to the 767/747. They totally could have gotten the 767/747 to think they were the real pilots and those 737/320 guys were just paying their dues and gaining experience. United could have slaughtered the pilot group...cutting them right down the center..creating a nasty battle between who "deserves" what. |
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
(Post 1159678)
Our 190s are mainline too. If you havent noticed they say FRONTIER on the side and make no mention of express and we don't fly them for any other legacy becasuse we can't.
We pay for the fuel, crew, MX, leases, gates, landing fees, and everything else that comes with hauling a passenger, there is nothing Fixed Fee about the 190 operation. In our eyes its a MAIN LINE operation so we should be paid MAIN LINE rates. |
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
(Post 1159678)
Our 190s are mainline too. If you havent noticed they say FRONTIER on the side and make no mention of express and we don't fly them for any other legacy becasuse we can't.
We pay for the fuel, crew, MX, leases, gates, landing fees, and everything else that comes with hauling a passenger, there is nothing Fixed Fee about the 190 operation. In our eyes its a MAIN LINE operation so we should be paid MAIN LINE rates. |
Originally Posted by Trogdor
(Post 1159717)
No, they're not mainline and neither are you. You were hired by and fly for a regional airline. Big difference between being hired by a major airline. Just because someone forgot to paint "Express" next to the Frontier logo, doesn't make you a mainline pilot.
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Originally Posted by Trogdor
(Post 1159717)
No, they're not mainline and neither are you. You were hired by and fly for a regional airline. Big difference between being hired by a major airline. Just because someone forgot to paint "Express" next to the Frontier logo, doesn't make you a mainline pilot.
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Wow. I'm surprised it took until page two for Zooropa to stick his dirty nose in here.
Originally Posted by zoooropa
(Post 1159565)
Devils advocate....
Why not sign an LOA for the new FO rates (company ask) in exchange for __________ (union ask)? Surely someone on property has come to the realization that the NMB might not release you and the company might not give in to your every demand. I remember a lot of people claiming that a strike would occur by Christmas 2011. I keep hearing "strike" and "jet blue rates", but no one is talking about the parking of aircraft and pay cuts at other FFD carriers. I wish you luck with your negotiations, but i have to ask, will you still be patting yourself on the back for turning down a pay raise if/when you find yourself in the same spot this time next year? No sections TA'd, no closer to release (there is no correlation between time spent in mediation and release, some groups have been released very early like the spirit pilots while others have been in mediation for years like the AA FA's), eagle decimated (you saw they are closing the rock, right?), pinnacle pay cuts, $3.30+ a gallon fuel..... Challenging times. I wonder if your E-Board and NC have allowed expectations to get so unrealistic for such a prolonged period of time that they have backed themselves (and the membership) into a corner. You all appear to be waiting for the "perfect" deal. Unfortunately, those deals do not exist. Often, by the time this realization occurs, even an "ok" has already sailed away into the sunset. The union's sole attempt at creating leverage where there is none is the "don't work here" campaign. This may dissuade the lateral move "regional to regional" guys but you will never convince a flight instructor to turn down the job. Again, I would love for you guys to get JetBlue +1 tomorrow, but from the outside looking in it appears that you guys are exactly where you were back in October 2007. In other words, you have achieved nothing in almost five years. I could state the obvious by counting the number of people required to perform a dance popular in South America, but I fear the point would be lost. What I will say is this: When it comes to matters of trade unionism, responses or advice from you or your brethren is neither solicited nor appreciated. I'd rather you keep sneering at me from afar. |
Originally Posted by zoooropa
(Post 1159565)
Devils advocate....
Why not sign an LOA for the new FO rates (company ask) in exchange for __________ (union ask)? Surely someone on property has come to the realization that the NMB might not release you and the company might not give in to your every demand. I remember a lot of people claiming that a strike would occur by Christmas 2011. I keep hearing "strike" and "jet blue rates", but no one is talking about the parking of aircraft and pay cuts at other FFD carriers. I wish you luck with your negotiations, but i have to ask, will you still be patting yourself on the back for turning down a pay raise if/when you find yourself in the same spot this time next year? No sections TA'd, no closer to release (there is no correlation between time spent in mediation and release, some groups have been released very early like the spirit pilots while others have been in mediation for years like the AA FA's), eagle decimated (you saw they are closing the rock, right?), pinnacle pay cuts, $3.30+ a gallon fuel..... Challenging times. I wonder if your E-Board and NC have allowed expectations to get so unrealistic for such a prolonged period of time that they have backed themselves (and the membership) into a corner. You all appear to be waiting for the "perfect" deal. Unfortunately, those deals do not exist. Often, by the time this realization occurs, even an "ok" has already sailed away into the sunset. The union's sole attempt at creating leverage where there is none is the "don't work here" campaign. This may dissuade the lateral move "regional to regional" guys but you will never convince a flight instructor to turn down the job. Again, I would love for you guys to get JetBlue +1 tomorrow, but from the outside looking in it appears that you guys are exactly where you were back in October 2007. In other words, you have achieved nothing in almost five years. Instead of criticizing us, why don't you support your fellow pilots in attempting to raise he bar for this industry. |
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
(Post 1159678)
Our 190s are mainline too. If you havent noticed they say FRONTIER on the side and make no mention of express and we don't fly them for any other legacy becasuse we can't.
We pay for the fuel, crew, MX, leases, gates, landing fees, and everything else that comes with hauling a passenger, there is nothing Fixed Fee about the 190 operation. In our eyes its a MAIN LINE operation so we should be paid MAIN LINE rates.
Originally Posted by sticky
(Post 1159722)
maybe one day I can big boy pilot like you and be a "guppy gear slinger".
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
(Post 1159723)
You hurt my feelings:(
3 Quick Questions- 1. What Company name is on your company ID? 2. What Compnay does your paycheck come from / say? 3. What company do you use/claim when jumpseating? Not wanting to 'hurt feelings' :mad: here; just curious about the answers. Thanks :) |
Originally Posted by cloudwarrior
(Post 1159742)
3 Quick Questions-
1. What Company name is on your company ID? 2. What Compnay does your paycheck come from / say? 3. What company do you use/claim when jumpseating? Not wanting to 'hurt feelings' :mad: here; just curious about the answers. Thanks :) 1. How tall are you? 2. Whats your favorite color? 3. What did you have for breakfast this morning? |
Originally Posted by cloudwarrior
(Post 1159742)
3 Quick Questions-
1. What Company name is on your company ID? 2. What Compnay does your paycheck come from / say? 3. What company do you use/claim when jumpseating? Not wanting to 'hurt feelings' :mad: here; just curious about the answers. Thanks :) Look man I'm not going to get into a ****ing match with you on this thread over what is mainline and what isn't who got screwed in the intergration and who didn't, who bought who and who didn't. There are hundreds of threads and thousands of posts with Frontier and RAH pilots goign at each others throats. If you want to flex ur muscels go dig one of them up, that hasn't been locked and I'll go blows with you. Frankly I'm over it and I am welcoming F9 pilots with open arms and hoping nothing but the best for them and us. For now I challenge you this. Give me one example of how the 190s are being utilized as a FIXED FEE FOR DEPARTURE. Take your time and state a fact NOT an unfounded oppinion. |
I have for thee these questions three.
1) What is your quest? 2) What is your favorite color? 3) What is the airspeed velocity of a swallow? |
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