silver Saabs, did they have info about COLGAN
 

so here is some thought, do you think the execs at silver knew about the soon to demise Colgan, and that is why they put in for Saabs over this year?? What is the status now of those Saabs? This will be UAL flying I am sure, I keep seeing news articles that say Silver will win out of Colgans loss.

Anyone with half a brain knew that the Colgan Saabs were on their way out, regardless of BK. Made zero sense to keep a pro-rate operation with an aircraft that was serving as a constant training cycle and mx costs that were skyrocketing.

I am more curious about the viability of the new Saab operation with Silver. Will they be able to keep them cost effective with the mx costs/up keep.

Yea I agree with The Juice, it's been coming for a while. I hope that Silver's maintenance on the Saabs is better than the Brasilia they used to have. Apparently the reason the Brasilia were sold is because we couldn't keep them flying. Combine a new aircraft with new maintenance personnel in Gainseville and I wonder how much trouble these "new" planes will give us.

I always hear the Colgan guys talking about how maintenance intensive the Q400s are. Are the Saabs any more robust?

When I saw our first Saab, I thought the thing looked brand new. Then someone pulled up a picture on their phone of that exact plane sitting in the desert before it got painted. I couldn't believe it was still flying...Right now, we have some problems with them. Just operational issues that come down to staffing on the ramp. We just dont have the resources on the ground yet...The Saabs we have now and the ones on the way belonged to Mesaba (no idea if these were once used by Colgan). Our CEO loves the Saab, and I think he used to work for Mesaba when they were smaller. Given the talks of routes we are bidding for, I dont see only 18 Saabs filling all of the flying we are bidding for. I cant see us getting any contracts for flying we dont have the airframes for. I'm sure we will need more. I've heard rumors that they even want to find more 1900s...Maybe they had some sort of idea about Colgan, who knows...

Colgan Saabs had 40,000+ cycles on them back when we actually kept track of the cycles on the MX log, about 3 years ago we stopped. So I would guess that 45,000 cycles is the norm of the Colgan fleet, that is a lot!

MX is a mess on them. If Silver runs their MX department like Mesaba did (see $$$) they may have a fighting chance. If they run it like Colgan, you might as well light them on fire when they show up on the ramp.

And for all of you guys who will be gearing up for the Saab, I have 2 words for you: "Rudder Limiter," have fun with that!

If i'm not mistaken, right now we have guys contracted for the Saab maintenance to get the ball rolling. Not sure what the long term plan is...We just emptied our FLL hangar today, flying everything up to Gainesville.

I've asked this same question in the Silver thread multiple times and no one has even tried to answer. I wish Silver the best, but I cannot figure out how they believe they can make money flying the same routes with the same aircraft as Colgan.

Simple, old Colgan paid peanuts, was profitable and then the new contract comes with a livable wage and boom, not profitable. Silver pays peanuts therefore profit.

Ill be honest, I dont think anyone's answered (including myself) because we're all scratching our heads at this one also. Obviously I hope it'll work out, I just dont know how. I will ask this though, is the Saab a fun aircraft to fly? I'm getting mixed reviews from our guys. Some like actually having a cockpit door behind them, a lav, and the coffee. Other guys just love flying the Beech. Opinions?

Not too sure about that....
According to some older Pinnacle financials:
2007 annual report shows Colgan with a $4.5 million operating loss in 2007.
Also, 10-K for 2008 showed a $7.9 operating loss for 2008.


All of this was available at Pinnacle's Investor Relations site at
Welcome to Pinnacle Airlines Corp. - Investor Relations - Annual Reports

My point being, even with the lesser labor costs of the previous contract and lower fuel costs the operation still lost money.

You are correct. People just assume that Colgan made money because they flew props at low wages. The flip side is with $100+ oil, half full planes, plus major mx costs, it is hard to not lose money.

I guess that's why Silver asked for as much money as they did. And with oil going up, who knows if that will be enough in the future. I'll be curious to see the reaction from the DOT.

The reason why they had rudder limiter problems non-stop for a while turned out that they were installing them upside down and when they removed the old one they just put the new one back in the same way they took it out.

The Saab is a fun to fly but is a little heavier on the controls than you would expect. You really can make it do anything you want. 249 to four miles out and high, "No problem". You will definitely like having an autopilot too. Not sure if you guys will have fms but all of ours are /a so that is a downside.

It can be a little heavy in roll feel but not really for pitch as long as you don't fly it untrimmed. 250 to the marker can definitely be done and be stable by 500 on a visual. With the higher flap settings on both t/o and landing you can get into and out of anywhere. The cockpit is roomier than the Brasilia and the no fms thing really isn't really that big of deal. We fly it on short hops and once you know your routes then you don't have to pull out en-route charts or spend time setting the thing up. It has stiff main gear so you wont get a squeaker every time but that just makes it sweeter when you do. The autopilot is fantastic, works good, lasts long time.

I really think its a great airplane to fly. The only real complaint is no APU so when its hot outside you will get a nice case of what we like to call Saab a**.

250 to the marker, so I am assuming you hang everything out and start making a lot of noise with the props going forward, not even pull out your charts because you have it memorized! But you will fly it cheaper, so I will loose my job to your sh!ty airline... Flying like this is fun for a pilot but you are there to transport passengers from point A to point B in safe and confutable matter. Please be a professional pilot!

Nothing wrong with 250 to the marker, and the charts should have been out a long time prior to that, with the briefing done.

Exactly. What "charts" do you need inside the marker? I guess he means "checklist."

Didnt know republic was so spectacular

They don't worry about that stuff, they shoot apps regardless of info or wx, CLE is what I'm talking about

Someone needs a cup of coffee.

Your right I should have violated SOP's and landed without putting the props back. And your also right we flew it so cheap after the contract we won't be going out of business anymore. And your also right we purposely made the Saab loud, we had a quiet button just refused to press the damn thing.

I'd add that your average passenger already thinks they are an RCH from going deaf just from riding on a turboprop. I doubt a couple minutes of slightly more noise is going to affect their opinion of the airplane or the flight. The poster above is right, they'll member the landing anyway.

I'm sorry, what airplane do you fly? do you have an fms and pull out your low enroute or hi enroute for every fix when you load it up? I was referring to not having to pull out the chart when atc says go direct to this vor because you know the freq. same as you going direct to a fix without the chart because you know the spelling.

250 to the marker is more comfortable because the pax spend less time sitting in the the saab. When you idle it at 250 it slows down quick and quiet especially if you have the dowty rotol props. Then the gear, flaps and props forward come at the normal speeds. There is nothing unstable, uncomfortable, or unprofessional about that for VISUAL approach with no one ahead of you and a long line behind you.

Ill fly it cheaper than who? You? Probably, I don't have the sense of entitlement you do. Your avatar makes it look like you fly for eagle but you are "standing with RAH pilots". Enjoy your Bankruptcy and furlough, I know Ill enjoy mine. :)

No sense of entitlement here, you still don't get! What you refer to in just dialing a frequency because you game it memorized is complacency, you can get and will likely get it correct 100% of the time. But I not willing to take that chance, to much is at risk. I don't fly an airplane with an FMS, we work in a field that doing something by memory becomes so easy but we also work in a field where we are dealing with many outside factors and a fatiguing schedules. We have different views and I think we should leave it at that!

So if u work in the field how are we
Putting u out of business by flying so cheap? WHAT?

108.7 and 111.55... Can I get a gold star for my awesome complacency? I have a lot of ops frequencies memorized too, if it'll help guarantee that gold star...

This guy's argument is laughable. So when tower tells me "Contact tower 125.35," I'm supposed to disregard that, head down in my chart and put that frequency in; possibly disregarding ATCs frequency they gave you.

There will always be one like him.

Why does every thread on this forum, particularly the "regionals" forum, turn into a "I do my job better than you" battle? Someone simply stated why they enjoy flying the Saab, and it turn into some debate. If I said that I can't wait to fly the Saab because it actually has a lavatory, are you going to critique me on how many times I wipe my a$$ before I flush? Or should I look that up in the ops manual every time.



.........SOP says about 4.

No you are supposed to put your head down after being told fly "direct Grand Rapids" for the 3rd day in a row, mid cycle just to look up that it's still 115.95. and in the process fly right through the most congested flight training area in the midwest.

I laughed really hard, dude.

Sure thing man, I'm happy to drop it. I was serious when I wanted to know what airplane you fly. Are you at eagle, on the atr?

Do you play drums by any chance?

Yes. The autopilot is MUCH better than the RJ's.

Ditto on Saab asss.

At least the Saab autopilot knows how to capture a localizer, unlike the CRJ

Sick Attitude...What are you 24? Maybe 25? Hence why I would never let myself, wife, or even my worst enemy on your aircraft.

To let you know I vommited in my mouth when I said "your aircraft".

Hey Sandrich,
personal opi nion of course. Iflew Saab for a year and a half, and flew 1900 for a year. Saab is like flying an old F150 truck. Fun, but heavy on the controls, dirty, shaky and noisy airplane. 1900 flies well, much like other King Airs. I woulddefinately like having an autopilot, on those multiple leg days, but youll never be as proficient as you are right now flying the 1900. Have fun bro...

Well i flew the saab, but it was a little further out then FAF on visual, prob 1 -2mile frommmarker you could go 250 and still obey the SOPs by 500ftagl.

Is that sickening? Did you vomit again? Tell me why

Man, I am just not making any friends this week...

To take a shot at defending myself (even though I'm sure it wont help) I was simply trying to let someone know the capabilities and my sense of the plane when they asked. I wasn't advocating being unstable or unsafe on approach, just trying to let people know that the airplane slows down really quick so you don't have to be quite as ahead of it on the descent as a jet. Or you can fix a situation where atc left you high and fast really easily. The no chart thing wasn't meant to be "don't ever look at your charts", it was simply a response to someone else complaining about no FMS. I was saying that /A is just fine on our routes because once you know them a little you have plenty of situational awareness without the big moving map display and the navigation is really easy and you don't have to spend a lot of time messing with the box.

I'm sure I wouldn't have stepped on as many toes having said this in person but once again the internet makes everything a grey area. Or maybe I am just a crummy writer.


ColganGuy and What,

The safety and comfort of my passengers is, and always will be my number one concern in aviation. Not my own enjoyment, pay, or mission completion. I do this job because I believe that I have something of value to add to the operation and safe, reliable air transportation is my goal. I'd be happy to have myself and MY wife in the back of your airplane. Please feel free to PM me if you like, Ill tell you who I am and we can talk more if you like.

Who would want to be friends with anyone on this forum? ;)

I really cant tell what this manhood measuring contest is even about anymore, but look up in FAR/AIM ar FAR-FC for the definition of a stabilized approach......oh wait, its not in there.
Thanks for the insight. Enjoying the 1900 for now, but if they put me in Saab class, I wont go kicking and screaming. It is what it is. Wont happen anytime soon, thats for sure.

No, it's just always MEL'ed lol.