By the paytables sure their hourly rate is about the same but where xjt is better is the soft time work rules, retirement, vacation, ...

Can someone help a noob with the abbreviations?? 9L? 9E?

CH11?

He's talking about Pinnacle's (9E) bankruptcy (CH11), which includes Mesaba (XJ) and Colgan (9L). 2-letter airline codes.

Almost every airline has a 6 character code, for example, DL CH11, 9E CH11, AA CH11, UA CH11, etc.

XJ = Mesaba
9E = Pinnacle
9L = I believe to be Colgan, based on the fact that they go along with the other two

CH11 = Chapter 11 bankruptcy (other option would be Chapter 7)

And while I wouldn't blame only the pilot contract for the Pinnacle bankruptcy, it was certainly a contributing factor. And I'm not even talking about the pay rates. Those weren't excessive. I would blame the training costs associated with people switching aircraft.

Here is what I don't understand about contract negotiations and airlines, but regionals specifically. Why does everyone believe they should have a better contract than the competition, or even a better contract than they already have? At the major level, at least the company can up ticket prices to bring in more revenue. But, at the regional level, income is stuck at a predetermined level. If you shoot too high, your company can no longer be profitable.

I would love to see every pilot in the country fly under the same contract. I don't mean on the same seniority list, or the same company. Just the same contract. That would take labor costs out of the picture and put blame solely on management's ability to actually manage. Go bankrupt and guess what, can't blame labor. Tough to talk a judge in to concessions when costs are exactly the same as those at all of the competition.

exactly.

Profits are razor thin now on the regional level. Majors have figured out they way over paid 10 years ago and now the pendulum has swung the total opposite way. Pilot wages make up a significant chunk of the budget. You want industry leading wages? Go to the majors, the Regionals just surviving will be a miracle. I dont know about you, but im not about to strike, most came to the regional level with expectations that wages will suck til they get to the majors or somewhere else.

What are you hearing all these greedy XJT guys want? I'm an XJT guy and I told you a few posts back what would make me happy. Give me back the concessions I gave up 3 years ago, a set annual cost of living/inflation adjustment, minor changes to the reserve rules and no PBS. Hardly sounds like asking for the moon to me. But then again I haven't been brainwashed by ASA/Skywest management yet.:rolleyes:

That's Captain FreezingflyBOY to you, SIR! If you're going to misrepresent me, at least get my damn name right! And for the record, I haven't been an "almost 3 year FO" in over 4 years, but good try:D

Seriously though, read and comprehend much? Where did you get the idea I'm in the "concede to succeed" camp? My position throughout this discussion is that our JCBA can and SHOULD be better. Now this Red97Vette character...read on.

Well if you were familiar with the facts, you would realize just how ludicrous that statement is. Continental lost their shirt bringing CHQ on and quickly realized what a good thing they had with XJT. If we were so outrageously expensive, why were those aircraft (minus the charter fleet) back flying for Continental within 2 years while CHQ's COEX fleet went from 30 airplanes to 8? But why let a thing like facts cloud your argument.

We are not in bankruptcy, L-ASA or L-XJT! We (L-XJT) haven't been headed for it since the dark days of 2009. But you're right, we sit around in our posh crewrooms in Houston, Chicago, Cleveland and Newark counting our fat stacks of cash and sipping Pellegrino, plotting how we can take ASA down. Face it, we have you surrounded.:rolleyes: Another idiotic statement. The last thing any of us wants is a bankruptcy. If you're gonna gut my contract, I at least want a say in it, not some bankruptcy court. But evidently we don't even need a judge for that, they have some of you CRJ guys so convinced that the sky is falling that you seem intent to gut it for us!

I don't know where this idea that the ERJ side is are more expensive because of our pilot pay came from. I can only assume it's more company kool-aid and brainwashing by your MEC. If the ERJ side is so expensive, why is that where all the growth and hiring is going? Why not add more CRJs to the UAX operation and park ERJs? Everything I've ever heard is that the CRJ side is more expensive. From what I have witnessed firsthand, it's not because of our paychecks, it's because the rest of the operation is so inefficient over there. Scheduling: Could not be less efficient. Maintenance: Spare parts? Who needs 'em! We'll just take a delay or cancel! SkedPlus and Rainmaker: garbage. It's not an automated system if everything has to go through a human scheduler or pay analyst to be done right!

If all you care about is growth, go fly your beloved 700/900s for free then YOU can laugh in the face of all those GoJet goons when you tout your phenomenal GROWTH. Cause who needs money when you got GROWTH. You know that's a deal mainline just couldn't pass up! You act like you are the only airline that's ever had flying shifted around on you. We've been there too bubba, ala Continental's foray into slumming with CHQ and Colgan. Our contract is STILL head and shoulders better than both of them yet Colgan will cease to be in about 6 months (respect) and CHQ is fighting to get their contract out of the toilet while they continue to lose flying. Hmmmm... Again, those pesky facts...

Listen, here is the bottom line: Even if the CRJ guys JUST took our contract with no modifications, it would be an improvement in YOUR pay and QOL. Most guys here are fine with our current contract (with the usual minor gripes here and there of course, we're all pilots, right?). But NO ONE I know on the ERJ side is willing to accept LESS than what we have RIGHT NOW. Period. Myself included. I don't think that's asking too much to keep what we have, do you? Of course you always aim high in these situations and we all have our wishlist of improvements we'd like to see but at a minimum, keep management out of my pockets. That's all I'm asking.

Well with sentiments like this, it's a wonder we haven't won the war already:rolleyes: Have some respect for yourself and what you do man. No one is saying I fly a CRJ but you should pay me like I fly a 747. I just worked hard to get here, I have far more responsibility on my shoulders than most working schlubs, compensate me accordingly. That's it.

I've never been to the ATL crewroom but is there just a giant sign in front of the chairs and on the door and on every computer that says "You are cheap, expendable labor"? Is it printed on every paycheck you get? Is it some mantra you all chant at your union meetings? What is it?! Where did you get this mentality from!?

And who said anything about a strike?!:confused: I've got an idea: you just "donate" your paycheck to the company each month and leave the rest of us out of whatever bending over exercise you think is appropriate.

I didn't mean our wages pushed us into CH11, that's the scapegoat Menke used and tried selling to the public. My previous comment was tongue and cheek. What brought CH 11 on is total management incompetence.

Wow.

first, you want to keep up with cost of inflation? So thats about a 5% pay raise every year. Have fun with that, I would love to have a pay raise like every year but that is in no way sustainable. You apparently showed up to the party 10 years late with no clue what is going on. This is a gripe everyone in the whole US economy has had to deal with for a while now and no one likes it.

second, didnt Continental pull a lot of flying for you guys? oh and your failed solution to create your own airline to recover the losses...that went well, didnt it? Then continental came and "begged" to have you come back, ...but at significantly lower rates, ones that you were loosing money on the whole time? Thats an AWESOME deal man. no way you guys could have been headed for BK with a contract that was signed at a loss. oh and that whole 100% 50 seat airline concept...thats got a future in it that cant fail either.
ASA/Skywest isnt brainwashing any of us. If you have a brain you can realize the state of the industry and what is needed to succeed. You can think we are conceding all you want and hide behind your screen names and bash us.. but you are the ones that were in a bad spot, great contract or not, you got bought. No one at ASA was expecting us to buy you (100% total shock) and frankly, most of us all ****ed off that we bought a dying airline and are praying we dont go down with the rest of you guys.

Third, incase you havent noticed we have one of the better contracts in the industry as well. If you can have that and growth, it makes for a better QOL. Upgrades, more lines, etc. You seem so dead set of not taking anything less that what you had, yet your so blind that your willing to go and sink yourself in the long run for a great short term contract.

Fourth, Skedplus and rainmaker are crap? ***? Have you even looked at this system or are you just listening to the usual winers at xjt that always ***** and moan? When we have humans always issuing pay and schedule changes it was a mess, errors left and right. Rainmaker lets you in real time see how your pay is effected and always lets you query them if you see an error. This has happened once to me the whole time we have had it. Before, queries were flying left and right and it would take a month to fix it because human man power was limited. Our PBS system is great, way better than line bidding, and is one of the best PBS systems in the country! But thats not as good as your tripple dipping schemes and amazing system you guys have. I have 24 days off in may with a 3 day and a 4 days trip and only used one week vacation. Not bad and im pleased with it. You should maybe TALK to actual ASA pilots before badmouthing the one thing we fought for so hard in our last contract.

Get your facts right, Colgan didnt cesase operations only because of their contract, you might want to look at that a bit closer. But you have your almost 4 years seniority, work at the best "just bought" airline with the best contract, you must know everything.

Us ASA guys, we like to bend over and take it by management, donate our checks to the company, not have families or kids to support, dont care about our lives and in general dont care about anything. Yep you NAILED IT! Have fun being a lifer as an FO at the best and highest paid regional.

This is be my last post in this thread with comments such as yours. What has needed to be said has been said. Argue all you like. I just hope you dont sink a good operation and realize just how lucky you guys actually were.

I am dumbfounded by some of the ASA guys opinions on this topic. I don't even know what to say. Only that I hope these opinions are in the minority. Lay off the kool-aid.

I'll be sure to think about how expensive we are next time I am counting my pennies in front of pax in my sparkling uniform outside of McDonalds to check if it is in my budget to buy myself a snack-wrap. Maybe we can even think of putting up drop-boxes in the crew-rooms to donate money back to the company if we'd like.

I hope the two MEC's don't butt heads and enter ****ing competitions like the guys on this website. If so y'all will never get a contract. Who cares who's contract is better

Not sure who this Red97Vette guy is, but I'm definitely embarrassed by his comments and willingness to lower the bar. Not sure how his fellow pilots became his enemy...

Although we may have vastly different contracts, work rules and perceptions we are both under the same management team now. Comments like his and the constant mud slinging accomplishes what? :confused:

We both want improvements in out next contract and arguing about the past XJT and using 2nd and 3rd hand information in your argument doesn't get us closer to that.

Fact. XJT, ASA, SKW, have never gone bankrupt.

Fact. With the funds that Inc. has in the bank this will not happen anytime in the near or distant future.

Fact. Regardless of you feeling about the separate groups we are run by a (Relatively) very competent and efficient management teams that, dare I say it, know how to run an airline. :eek:

Pilot wages WILL NOT bankrupt an airline. :mad:

Come on guys, let's be sensible here!

Red97Vette I hope for everyone's sake you never make it to a major and please for the love of god don't vote on our TA.

I'd like to nominate you for tool of the Day.

Christ! Is there an adult I can talk to?:rolleyes:
Erm...most other white collar jobs in the country get normal cost of living adjustments. What world are you living in? So your solution is to keep your pay flat while each dollar you earn is worth less and less? Try taking an economics class my friend. Our economy doesn't work for ANYONE, whether you are in the 1% or 99%, if people can't buy stuff. Oh, but there will be growth, right?

Continental did. It was a total CF for all involved. I feel like I've been over this. The branded was, at best, a promising experiment and at worst a stop-gap until CAL pulled their head out of their ass, which they eventually did. I suppose you think giving up 1/3 of your fleet to your closest competitor (at the time) is a better business decision? From the quality and content of your post's, I am guessing you were still in high school when that all went down. CAL forced us between a sharp rock and a snarling pit bull. XJT chose to punch the pit bull in the face and spit on it, then walk away while they waited for the sharp rock to get worn down by its own incompetence.

Yes, today, at this moment, the ERJ side is 100% 50 seaters. Will it always be? Who knows. But once again, we are seeing growth on the 50-seat and LESS side (135s anyone? Who saw THAT coming!?) while you guys are losing 50s and 70s. Hmmm...

Who is this "us" you keep referring to? I'm not bashing ASA, I'm bashing YOU personally, Red97Vette. No one else. YOU didn't buy anything. SkyWest, Inc. bought ExpressJet (on their SECOND attempt, mind you) to then merge ExpressJet with ASA. I think we can all agree that SkyWest, Inc. has some of the smartest management in the game here. Must have been SOME reason they wanted us so bad. Twice. Surely it must have been because we are paid too much to be profitable, right?

Between the two of us, I think I know who has a better grasp of the facts. I am still curious though: you can call it whatever you want, but what do YOU think is needed to "succeed"?

Then why aren't you GROWING?! Your contract is good, don't get me wrong, but it ain't great. The ERJ contract is better in most areas, yet the growth and hiring is going to ERJ side rather than the CRJ side. Thoughts on why? To your mind that must seem counter-intuitive. Is it possible that there is more that goes into the cost of flying airplanes than what the pilots make?

Yes, crap. Unmitigated, unequivocally crap. Have I looked at the system?! Been using it for over a year now. CCS was not great, SkedPlus/Rainmaker are worse. Great, I can see my pay in real time. Could do that on our old system, big whoop. Just means I know RIGHT THEN that I have to comment/pay claim something...and wait days to a month. Sounds to me like we're dealing with the same BS you are complaining about (endless comments and queries and waiting a month to get a resolution), so tell me again, why Rainmaker is so great?

Ohhhh PBS. Now you've done it. You've just revealed yourself to be a troll in 'vette clothing! Yeah, you guys fought REAL HARD to GET PBS? Just begged and begged management to go out and get it for you? Is THAT how it went down? Becaaauuusseee that's not the story I've heard from the vast majority of ASA pilots I HAVE talked to. It may interest you to know that some months we have some lines built with 18-20 days off BEFORE vacation. How do you like them apples? In May for example there were 25 lines with 18 days off and 75-85 hours of credit. I'm glad PBS is working out for you and you're as happy as can be. Well done, sir. Line bidding works for us and is generally a better option with our vacation system.

While not really germane to the discussion I feel the need to correct you...again. THREE years plus FOUR years does not equal FOUR years. Again, those pesky facts. Reading comprehension: use it, love it:rolleyes: Having been at an airline for a while doesn't mean anyone knows everything, nor do I claim to. But the ability to read, comprehend and think critically sure go a long way!

To address your point, Colgan didn't run in to trouble because of any one particular problem. If you want to point one finger at one cause, I would say it was mismanagement on a colossal level, NOT the pilot contract. ...which REINFORCES my point, so I'm not sure why you brought it up. In case you are not clear, I will say it again: PILOTS DON'T RUIN AIRLINES, MANAGERS DO!!! So stop looking at yourself in the mirror and saying "I am the problem". Sheesh!

No, not that "us" stuff again. You got a mouse in your pocket or something? From my own anecdotal experience, I know that you are in the minority, thank GAWD!!! Slowly but surely, we are winning hearts and minds over there. The XJT bubbas, myself included, are NOT the enemy. We just want whats best for all of us. I'm sorry you have some sort of inferiority complex and don't understand your true value but the fact is, I am unwilling to take a step back in pay or QOL so you can pat yourself on the back and feel like you are doing a good thing for the company. The same company that would fire or furlough your ass the minute it suits them.

Again, no one is trying to sink the ship, not yet. Hell from this comment it sounds like you are itching to cross a picket line that no one else is talking about but you. I hope something just got lost in translation:
I'll say it again: Pilots don't ruin airlines, managers do. No one on the ERJ wants to "sink the ship" or "burn it down" or anything like that. We may have a few vocal goofballs just like ASA does, a great example being...you. But they are by far the minority. Most of us get it: we're in this together and we just want what's fair for EVERYONE. So if that means a pay raise and QOL improvements for our CRJ brothers and sisters while the ERJ side keeps what we have, then DAMMIT, take more money and better QOL and shut up about it already! Because we aren't taking less. That is all. Enjoy your day!

I <3 Boobs.

Best post of the thread.

:p

The "almost 3 year FO" was not directed towards you. Reading comprehension: use it, love it.

You quoted my response to Red97Vette where he referred to be as someone with "4 years of seniority", as if that means something. Merely supplying accurate information. The post of YOURS that I responded to earlier was this one here:

Memory problems? Just trying to keep the facts straight here.:rolleyes:

And I too, <3 boobs.

Hey, thanks man. I just thought, "hey, while we're talking about things that have nothing to do with the original post..."

Anyone at the "recall" meeting Friday? I was working or I probably would have had a mind to go. Curious as to how the whole thing was received. WF, I know you're out there - how about some thoughts?

Does anyone else have a feeling that they are going to try to sell us some crap contract and say that we will get more flying if we sign it? Tell us how awesome it is, and that we should all embrace it as a gift from god. Just like PBS? I do. Don't fall for that crap. That's my two cents for this thread. Peace

amen +1

/unrelated

I'm sick and tired of 12 year guys telling 6 year FOs how great it used to be, Brasillias, fly through DFW amazing three days...

I've heard it literally a thousand times now. Update your logbook and apply somewhere else. I could NOT. CARE. LESS. about your DFW base or sweet three days of the past.

/rant

but not really, I had a guy that could have been a street captain have the balls to tell me how bad he had it as a six year FO, by choice.

::nominates self for tool of the day::

If there is one thing I've learned in life in general, and specifically when it comes to airlines, is that you should never commit to something (especially long term) based on the promise of benefits in the future.

If they want to tell us that we'll get more flying if, for example, we only get a small cost of living pay increase, there is a simple way to handle that - you give us a contract with an even bigger pay raise, with contingent reductions based on management's performance in getting us more flying. That way, they have leverage AND incentive to work hard to acquire more flying, and we win either way.

In any case, we need to be creative and put the onus on them while giving them the ability to go out and win more contracts. At the same time, we can't sell ourselves short and commit to concessions for a vague promise of something better in the future that may or may not come.

First of all, not a lifer (that I know of yet at least), I'm a 7 year FO. Second, the reason why XJT was going bl was because of the whipsaw that CAL and SKW pulled on XJT, NOT because of our industry leading contract. Third, the main reason SKW bought XJT and decided to merge it with ASA (a concession from their first buyout attempt) was because soon ASA was going to start losing money when lowered to the 2nd lowest DCI carrier. So don't try to pretend like ASA or SKW were saviors in this. I have no desire to sink anything but like I said, do you expect the ERJ pilots to agree to ANYTHING that is not at least as good as we have now? If that is too much to ask for, then I'm perfectly ok with staying separate. Like I said, it's the ERJ side growing but even if it wasn't, I'm personally not interested in giving anything I have for a CHANCE at being the next Gojet. I suggest you come up with a plan B so you are not so beholden and desperate to give stuff up and sell yourself up for that supposed fast upgrade and job at mainline.

Wages was the wrong word. Our compensation, not including soft time in our contract, we have a industry leading 401k and defined contribution plan. When you add up just those into our wages, we get close to most CRJ900 compensation. And we are growing. If it brings us to bk, so be it. I'll go do something else.

Sounds like every 4 day I get too. The vast majority of non reserve captains I fly with are now self described "lifers" and have drank the masses drank the Kool-Aid about being cost effective and are scared ****less of losing more flying to Gojets. This is all thanks to the 3 year North Korean style brainwashing and censorship where every email and update put out by the company talked about how we have to be cost effective, cut costs, control costs, etc, they now are all convinced that if we get too much in this contract they will sink with the ship.

Has anyone heard the only FO on the negotiating committee was "replaced" and now the most junior pilot on it is 11+ years at the company? Gee, I wonder what part of the pilot group will come out on top yet again..

So what do we do about this? What do we need to do to get proper representation?

This thread isn't helping our negotiations by the way. Please keep your opinions of what you'll vote for in a private forum.

Not true!...

which part of the statement do you believe to be untrue? I know at least half of it is true.

I also heard that.

Can someone confirm anything?

I confirm everything!!

The latest rumblings I've heard from the union (as of 5/5/12), say that we are very close to a T.A. From what I gather from the company, they want to be done with a new contract by the end of 2012!

Won't happen.

Are you that unhopeful or are you just that beat down from past negotiations? There was a p2p alpa rep in ops last night and that's what he or she said. Word is the company is willing to get it done ASAP in order to see the synergies of the merger. I guess we will see what happens.

...................

They need to hurry up get this contract done and declare bankruptcy. Then they can make the contract however they want.

You know they are really laying it on thick when they use the "Agree to the contract so we can get new flying opportunities" phrase. I haven't heard it yet, but how many opportunities did we get from the PBS contract. If I recall, Skywest took our airplanes for USAir, and GoJet took them for Delta.

I listened to the conference call a few nights ago. During the call, I specifically emailed the Union reps to ask if by "soon" they meant we are likely to have a TA ready to be voted on in 2-3 months. The response I got back was an enthusiastic "yep!"

May or may not actually happen, but it's encouraging at least. Seems like progress is being made.

need to get you guys figured out since they want to take on AA feed.