Also at the bottom of the insurance sheet it mentions that those numbers are for 2013 only. One of the items they want modified on page E-1 is this little nugget:

1. Section 27.A:
Medical, Dental, and Prescription
a. Change consent of the Association to notification prior to implementation

So basically you can take whatever numbers you see there and just add more and more for each year afterwards that we are going to have to pay for insurance because there will be no limits to what the company can do...

Lots of co-NYC domicile talk at the end of the proposal as well, no thank you.

Please read your post again and think about what you just said.

You might want to check your math...

2% salary hit + 10% ins hit + 8% per diem hit doesn't equal 20% total reduction in renumeration.

If you are basing everything off guarantee you are correct. Most people fly well over and that is why I think the number seems inflated. That's what I took from his post.

It's okay- it's a fair statement and you can pick on me. It's a forum, just opinion. I was expecting the company to submit a term sheet with harsher terms. I could never see this getting a pilot group ratification.

Delta put us into bankruptcy is absolutely true. They (Delta) owed us money in February for the increased cost of the merger and integration of Mesaba. However, they told us they would not deal with us till bankruptcy. The Delta attorney's consider the DIP financing as the payment they owed us for the merger, and the attorney's are correct.

While I completely agree, it's almost a losing battle. People will pick it up without refrain. And when the company doesn't want to use the reserves to cover open time, they will simply jr assign and extend already exhausted line holders to the point of quitting. And if you can't do it, be prepared to meet with the chief pilot about it. Yes you can have a union rep with you if you so choose. In other words, don't make plans for your days off.

Off topic but I would rather have someone pick it up than anyone get J.A.ed.

Unless they try to unsuccessfully J.A. everyone in the system, not picking up opentime won't save anyone's job, sorry to say. I've been furoughed before myself.

This topic comes up everytime there is a furlough. Noble intentions but it won't do anything to help as long as scheduling has the J.A. cannon to use on us.

A better idea is don't answer your phone.

There is way too many paragraphs in there about being aquired by an airline without the same union.

love the avatar

i thought about it and don't understand the epiphany you want me to have. care to clarify?

What? He has a point. Some FOs can't make ends meet on 75 hrs.

I think josh was getting at do not take a job if you can not live on the wages. Just a guess though

I think it's pretty clear. The pay rates are that crappy. And we've been held hostage by the Regional industry for so long that we've just started to accept our fates. I think he was trying to drive that home.

South park underpants gnomes!!!!! Am imthe only one who got it?

"started to accept our fates"...The exact statement / mentality that will prevent this industry from ever improving. Way to many pilots have developed this mentality. Defeat is always preceded by acceptance.

This will be a business school case study of how M&A activity can result in spectacular failure for years to come...

Also, its obvious PNCL management isn't concerned with a "pilot shortage" due to Age 65 attrition, flight/duty time changes and the looming 121 pilot qualification NPRM.

why should they be? we will have a steady supply of pilots just as soon as the "schools" start printing up shiny brochures showing a "graduate" in the right seat of the 747 he was promised he'd be in by the time he's 26....no matter what the pay is.

uhmm well my entire plan was based on surviving until upgrade then paying down my loans. I since purchased a modest care nissan altima and have payments. with the size of my loans and any social life, i have to work about 85 hours a month.

stop with the holier then though. i'm wicked tight with my budget, its just that i have a huge loan payment. I have enough in savings to last a while but it is a steady trend toward personal bankruptcy

I agree. Kudos to all those who are taking a stand.

I have to agree with you gonyon.

People have no right to lecture each other on personal spending.

Assuming PCL is still around at that point.....

Okay, let me spell it out....

-Stating that one "cannot live off the 75 hours" sounds like justification for picking up future open time. If one needs additional money when we have folks furloughed, get a second job.

-Taking a job that necessitates pulling significant overtime just to break even isn't smart. Enough people doing so degrades pay industry wide.

I am not questioning how one spends his money, just saying that basing a budget on 85 hours per month (1020 hours per year) is a losing proposition. Until people stop counting on overtime and perdiem to survive, this industry will just be indentured servitude.

Yep, if you took this job within the last few years, with what was known about the industry, how can you complain? What is your backup plan? You do have a backup plan right? I could understand if it was a student in school trying to decide about whether they should go on with their training, but you are well past that now.

Finally......... some common sense:

V.
Implementation
of
Integrated
Seniority
List.
A.
The
Carrier
Parties
shall
not
implement
the
Integrated
Seniority
List
prior
to
Operational
Integration.
B.
No
employee
of
any
Carrier
Party
may
claim
an
entitlement
to
seniority
rights
of
any
type
under
the
Integrated
Seniority
List,
or
to
compensation
or
other
benefits
in
lieu
of
such
seniority
rights,
prior
to
Operational
Integration.

Finally......... some common sense:

V. Implementation of Integrated Seniority List.

A. The Carrier Parties shall not implement the Integrated Seniority List prior to operational integration.

B. No employee of any Carrier may claim an entitlement to seniority rights of any type under the integrated Seniority List, or to compensation or other benefits in lieu of such seniority rights, prior to Operational Integration.

Settle down there. I was not lecturing you i was stating what i thought josh was getting at. I too pay huge loan payments and am very fortunate my wife has a good job otherwise i would have been in Bankruptcy a long time ago. I was not commenting on what i think you or anyone else should do. I was just stating what I took from josh's comment

I apologize. I meant it as a response to the other guy. Sorry bout that. Yes, my plan was pretty solid when i got into this industry based on the info i had. unfortunately nothing went as planned. so my new plan is plan for nothing to go as planned then when the plan doesn't go as planned the plan is still good because you planned for there not to be a plan. Not a bad plan right?

now off to the bar by the lawschoool to find my sugar mama.

I don't think anyone has the rights to tell anyone how to live their life. I don't like the idea of buying things because I "plan" on upgrading or expecting a bigger pay check. My wife and I bought a house a couple years ago that's based on my 75 hrs of pay and her part time job. I don't have to worry about using our savings, everything above 75 hrs is put towards savings or entertainment.

remuneration*


Anyway, whoever mentioned that cheap air travel is being subsidized by airline employees is absolutely correct. I'm truly sick of the airline industry in the US. Time to leave...

Those are YOUR bad decisions.

It seems this package might be worse than contract 99 when all things are considered....

You're right, I am.

So.... Everything is our fault..

it definitely will be for me. Already did the math on it!

dont' think its possible to take a penny of loan money for flight school and plan for 75hrs on fo pay. just saying.

and how did you pay for your flight training?

My decisions resulted in not a single late loan payment, in fact i'm ahead six months. I have a fair amount in savings a strong resume (along with 5000 other guys), and no other real debt. So I made bad decisions? All i'm saying is that my average lifestyle with my student debt is not sustainable without going negative every month. now if i share living expenses that all changes. That is what i will likely do if i am capped at 75 hours.

based on all the information i had at the time i started, i would be about 2nd to 3rd year at mainline by now making 90-110k a year because that was what 2nd to 3rd year at mainline paid when i started and the mandatory retirement would have been a couple years deep by then. everything changed.

but by your logic you are saying that one should base their living costs on 75hrs per month on regional FO pay. Thats unrealistic. You couldn't take out a penny in loans.

this is a dumb conversation. lets move on.

It's absolutely possible, and many of us are doing it now. If you can't live off your min guarantee pay then you are living beyond your means.

Threads like this are why I pushed very hard in my graduation exit interview that Purdue make a personal finance class mandatory for AvTech/Flight majors.

A library card and "Total Money Makeover" would do folks a lot of good...