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-   -   What's Holding You Back? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/69530-whats-holding-you-back.html)

80ktsClamp 08-15-2012 11:36 AM

These are as good ideas as the a national seniority list and the "Jump to Conclusions" board!

mooney 08-15-2012 12:02 PM


Originally Posted by madeinUSA (Post 1246062)
. Let's first look at a 50 year old Captain at Comair. He's making 120,000 a year, lives in base, has a good schedule, and isn't going anywhere unless his company folds. He could care less about having 10,0000 hours PIC or 15,000. In fact he stopped logging years ago. Now you have sitting next to him a 10 year FO, late 20's, commuting in the hopes of getting PIC time and getting out.


I think you are a little late to the party.....

coryk 08-15-2012 12:15 PM


Originally Posted by RJet (Post 1246066)
Who needs PIC time these days? JetBlue, US Airways, Spirit, Virgin, etc. have all hired regional FO's recently with 0 TPIC time.

And... Delta, United, Continental (before merger), American (haven't hired in forever though), are the ones I can name off the top of my head. None had/have a TPIC requirement.

trip 08-15-2012 12:31 PM

You could call them Co-Captains! Just like a nice P.C. part 91 outfit would do.

fratedog 08-15-2012 01:34 PM

Didn't southwest do this back in the day? Lance Captains or something like that.

seahawker01 08-15-2012 02:26 PM

First I highly recommend that pilots call their union reps and ask that fixing the issue become a priority. I recommend "job portability".
Your idea unfortunately does not solve the issue. Your idea would get junior guys off the list, not the problematic senior guys. The other issue is that it would increase operational costs not reduce them. This would mean every pilot would have to be dual seat qualified and all FOs would have to complete PIC PCs. This would increase recurrent training requirements and therefore training costs. Also the administration costs of tracking which pilot sits where and who is the PIC for the flight would be much higher. Just the staffing required in SOC/OCC to answer phone calls and resend revised releases would have an airline cringe. I won't even get into the safety and legal issues.
I do applaud you trying to come up with solutions to this mess, please keep them coming.

AtlCSIP 08-15-2012 03:53 PM


Originally Posted by Red97Vette (Post 1246068)
To log PIC time you have to have the ultimate authority above anyone else on the airplane. Just because you are sitting in the left seat does not give you the experiance that comes along with the responsibility. That's the problem. It's also in the FARs. If the captain agrees to sit right seat, he would have to concede authority to you, highly doubtful. The exception sort of lies during upgrade, when in OE. I hear you technically can't log PIC then either, only the check airman can even when he sits right seat.
I am there with you though. I wish there was a way for FOs to log PIC. That would help us out a lot. Especially during these times of forever upgrades.

Actually, per the FAR's, this is not accurate. There is a difference between acting as PiC and logging PIC time. The problem is that Part 121 operators will not recognize any PiC time that a pilot has logged if he was not, in fact, acting as PIC, so nobody does it. In the part 91 world, it happens all the time.

Erdude32 08-15-2012 04:16 PM

There shouldn't be ANY Regional Captain's making over $50-60K a year...THAT'S the problem! The Lifer's who are pulling in the 120K a year, doing OE, running the simms and monopolizing the MEC's.....THEY are the problem! The Regionals were NEVER meant to be a career stop, but it's morphed into that situation. Why is there 15 and 20 yr payscales at some of the Regionals and NEVER at the Majors (except Fredex). It's because the lifers who are entrenched in your MEC's and Negotiating comittees are running the show and tossing the Jr Fo's under the bus to enrich thier career decisions. I won't even go into how many of the lifers are stuck there due to lack of a degree, credit ratings, dui's and checkride bust's. So, they get stuck at the regional and try and make it as best for them as they can...because the CAN'T/WON'T move on.

You guys want to make your industry more stable and a better QOL? Vote the Sr. guys OFF the MEC's and Neg commitees. Stop your payscales at yr 8 or 10, max vacation 2 weeks. Take no company match in 401k's. Make your Company as Cheap to run as possible. GET IN GET OUT.

For any RJ FO that's been sitting around the last 5 years waiting on an upgrade and PIC time....you are fooling yourself and screwing up your career. If you continue to wait for it, rather than making it happen you are going to miss the next hiring wave, or be at the end of it and be perpetually JR the rest of your career....which will result in a frustrating career of reserve and narrow body equipment. QUIT now! Go Expat to ANY turbine PIC job you can find. Go to India, fly turbo props...Africa, Japan, China...wherever. I'm not saying go to Emerites to sit in the right seat for 3-4 years....Go find a LEFT seat job, they are out there. Do it for a year to 18 mos and then come back here to a Major. The guys you are pulling gear for now will still be at the Regional they are now. They will still be miserable and they will still be looking for a way to throw YOU under the bus for more $$$.

CaptainCarl 08-15-2012 04:34 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 1246088)
Reducing FO cost won't make much of a dent...the airlines REALLY want to get rid of any and all six-figure regional CA's (or anyone over about $50K).

If that's you, you only still have a job because they haven't quite figured out how to dispose of you yet...but they are sure working on it, while you're reading USA Today in cruise flight, an entire team of MBA's is plotting to eliminate your position and re-bid it to a 24 y/o who's willing to live in a van down by the river.

Hey, hey, hey, some of us aren't willing to live in a van down by the river. Nothing less than a cabin with at least a stove and an internet connection for me ;)

N2Core 08-15-2012 04:51 PM


Originally Posted by Erdude32 (Post 1246283)
There shouldn't be ANY Regional Captain's making over $50-60K a year...THAT'S the problem! The Lifer's who are pulling in the 120K a year, doing OE, running the simms and monopolizing the MEC's.....THEY are the problem! The Regionals were NEVER meant to be a career stop, but it's morphed into that situation. Why is there 15 and 20 yr payscales at some of the Regionals and NEVER at the Majors (except Fredex). It's because the lifers who are entrenched in your MEC's and Negotiating comittees are running the show and tossing the Jr Fo's under the bus to enrich thier career decisions. I won't even go into how many of the lifers are stuck there due to lack of a degree, credit ratings, dui's and checkride bust's. So, they get stuck at the regional and try and make it as best for them as they can...because the CAN'T/WON'T move on.

You guys want to make your industry more stable and a better QOL? Vote the Sr. guys OFF the MEC's and Neg commitees. Stop your payscales at yr 8 or 10, max vacation 2 weeks. Take no company match in 401k's. Make your Company as Cheap to run as possible. GET IN GET OUT.

For any RJ FO that's been sitting around the last 5 years waiting on an upgrade and PIC time....you are fooling yourself and screwing up your career. If you continue to wait for it, rather than making it happen you are going to miss the next hiring wave, or be at the end of it and be perpetually JR the rest of your career....which will result in a frustrating career of reserve and narrow body equipment. QUIT now! Go Expat to ANY turbine PIC job you can find. Go to India, fly turbo props...Africa, Japan, China...wherever. I'm not saying go to Emerites to sit in the right seat for 3-4 years....Go find a LEFT seat job, they are out there. Do it for a year to 18 mos and then come back here to a Major. The guys you are pulling gear for now will still be at the Regional they are now. They will still be miserable and they will still be looking for a way to throw YOU under the bus for more $$$.

If credit ratings are keeping people from moving on to other jobs, then I'm afraid that there is more trouble a brewin.


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