Starting FO Pay
 

Anyone heard anything about possible starting pay increases for FO's now that the new FAA 1500 hr minimums are in place. I dont see how they can expect to pay some one 1800 a month to fly with these minimums?

Well, not sure, but the 9E guys are getting faced with really low FO longevity increases...

My first year in the RJ I made 34k after taxes.

Guess it depends where you go. Plus everyone is negotiating. Same ol stuff.

Lol...increase in pay? What?

The pay is never gonna change. Watch for it to get even worse as these regionals fight for what are going to be less and less contracts.
This career is being turned into a joke.
Our 5 year FOs at pinnacle may go from making mid 40s to mid 20s with a healthcare plan that would scare you.
They also want us to go to 3 days of recurrent each year for free.

Don't get into this career while you still have a chance.

Dude! You are NOT the norm. In fact I have no clue where you work or how did that your first year. Most first year pay is around 23-25 bucks an hour. Even including per-diem you would have to credit at least 130 hours a month for the whole year to earn that BEFORE taxes. It just doesn't add up. Unless you were a direct entry captain. Which would have nothing to do with this thread.

If you are telling the truth, you are in the 1% of people that got REALLY REALLY lucky. Please elaborate instead of making everyone feel like they are missing out or have done something wrong.

i pulled in 24K my first year and we have a high first year rate

First of all, let me say I wasn't trying to brag or anything.. Or compare myself to other guys. We are all in this game together.

I work for a regional that exclusively flies for one legacy carrier(might give you a clue who). Our first year is $27/hr and change. I was on reserve for 5 months. Our work rules, plus picking up open time allowed me to consistently credit anywhere from 110-140 every month. After reserve, I bid 60-70 hour lines with gaps of days off so I could pick up 2-4 day trips in the gaps. Allowing myself to again earn high per diem along with 120-130 hours of credit. The most days off I had was 7 or 8 each month and would barely scrape by 30/7s.

I'm single, no kids, and do not pull health insurance monthly. I paid cash for uniforms, which cancelled out the monthly deduct. Also, of course, we all know ALPA dues are not paid during apprenticeship.

I blocked 827 hours my first year of work and credited 1,076 hours. Plus roughly $6,300 in per diem.

Just hard work I suppose. I didn't want to be poor. I did my time as an instructor and earned barely enough to survive at one point. Then went corporate and made money, but the guy went broke and the king air/citation went bye bye. Hello pay cuts.

Now I'm another regional FO looking to make it. 1,070 TPIC. Someone wanna hire me? Haha... :)

You work for Air Wisconsin. Including per-diem in pay is misleading to those looking to compare pay rates. You might kill yourself if you work that hard til 65!

Pay and qualifications have nothing to do with each other. Going back to the late 90's, I got hired at AMR Eagle with 2800 TT, 850 turbine and made 17K that year. I think the low time guy in my new hire class had 2200 hours.

It's interesting to hear folks talk about the 1500 hr rule as most don't realize the history of the industry. There was a time when one was lucky to get a job as a CFI with 200-300 hours. Folks would flight instruct until they got at least 1000 hours and then go fly freight, banners, sightseeing tours etc until they had enough time for a regional airline job.

It's all luck. I grossed $32K my first year with ASA, but I never sat reserve and my lines were 90-100 hours every month, and I was junior manned almost every single week. All that plus per diem and 401K match add up pretty quickly.

Had I started 6 months later, I would have barely broken $20K.

Disagree. Per diem is still part of your compensation package. Pay rates are only part of the big picture.

Well so is 401k match

Yeah well I guess it's all part of the package.. Sorry if it mislead anyone.

Haha I definitely don't do that now. Second year pay gave me some breathing room.

Well in that case I made $22,000 dollars 43 crew meals, about 600 waters and a few hundred showers at a crappy hotel. I'd say I was over compensated. Hope the government doesn't hear about those crew meals. Might get taxed on them too;).

LOL.. Yeah I forgot about the billion waters we get ;)

Per deim isn't pay
 

Per Diem isn't pay. It is compensation for having to fend for yourself on the road. Pilots love to try and justify their under performing career by adding in all kinds of things that do not count as compensation yet conveniently forgetting to subtract for airport cars, uniforms, crash pad, meals on the go and the like.

An honest accounting is most humbling.

Skyhigh

I am not getting into the per diem debate, and not re doing my math to include my pay without it. My first 365 days at Eagle I grossed 33,267. I pick up SOME OT, and try and work the system, but I do not kill myself, and usually fly in the mid 80 to low 80s. Last year I didnt really know how to maximize the pay so it was not that high credit wise. I was on RSV for 2 or 3 months, and held a line about 6 (training the other 3 with 24/7 per diem).

This 365 day period I am aiming for 50k with per diem. I now try and maximize pay, last 3 months I have been averaging traded value on day 1 of the month of about 100 credit, 95 flying, and by months end usually have about 95 credit with 80 flying due to CX/WX, and me trading to get an extra day off. I have been getting about 14-16 days off and happy with my sched. In Aug I only have 13 days off, but will be credited whats equal to 125 hours of flying, while flying again in the mid 80s, however last week I had a 23 hour 4 day become a 11 hour 4 day due to WX/CX. I was down to 11 days off and burned a vacation day from next year to drop a 2 day trip and still get paid.

I see your point. I don't incur most of those expenses you list though. My commute is easy enough I don't require a crash pad, I'm paid a uniform allowance separate from per diem, I pack my meals so it costs me less to eat on the road than it does at home, and my airport car is the same as my daily driver, which I only have to drive to work once a week, thus saving quite a bit in fuel costs. For me, its extra money in my pocket because being on the road doesn't cost me a penny more than being at home. In fact, it saves me money. I spend far less money on a 4 day than I do spending a weekend at home.

Each can decide their personal accounting techniques, but as far as I am concerned, its compensation if it ends up in any of my bank/retirement/brokerage accounts.

Pay is determined by supply and demand. Thats what gives you power in negotiations or destroys any real chance you have.

That is why it is in everyone's best interest for pilot qualifications to become more stringent. The less supply, the more power we all have to make pay go up.

We have already seen a willingness on the part of regionals to raise first-year pay if the pilot market gets tight. I wouldn't be surprised to see it $30K...but that won't help in the long term, because they won't be giving any raises beyond that once they have you on the hook.

It would not be surprising to see across the board pay-cuts while first-year pay is rising...especially for regional CA's.

And OBTW, no raise = pay cut, as inflation marches on.

I make 14K a year (aft taxes). $20 an hour. avg below 70hrs per month (my OT is usually taken away before I get to fly it). min pay is 70 per month. I do not eat more than 4 meals per 3 day period. I do not complain. I suck it up. Work my butt off. Waiting for flight time to build.

Only ONE instructor during my 4 yr degree told me it would be this way...every other instructor talked about the end of the career not the following: painful QOL/hunger/barely paying loans back (haven't missed a payment yet YAY)/bed on airport floor life style/jumpseat on late flights hoping to sit in 1stclass for a free meal/live out of a suitcase lifestyle

Gas was also $1.10 a gallon back then

Look at the wages pilots fly for now. Airlines have no problem finding bodies to fill cockpits. There would have to be a significant attitude change on the PILOT side to change this. And if that happened, I'd suspect quite a few airlines would not be able to support their cost structure. What is better, 10 people having a good job, or 50 people that can at least say they have "a job", even if it sucks?

Hence the username? ;)

Airlines are an economy of scale, as in the larger the operation, the cheaper this operation becomes. Trends are leading towards a reduction in the regional market, which will drive up the cost of operation (regardless of fuel prices or wages). Airlines will either have to adapt or risk turning their planes into beer cans.... Some airlines can barely survive now. I think wages will go even lower, no matter how dry the pilot pool is..People can talk all day about what the mins, hiring, and salaries were like in 80s, 90s, heck even this year... But its almost 2013 and times have and will continue to change. As previously stated, experience and salary have no correlation. Guys back then had thousands of hours and barely broke 17k. Many, myself included, were hired at 3M with not even 500 hours and will probably reach 25k first year...

This is pretty much the only post that matters.

But you can take it back farther to the early to mid 90's. When you had to have that kinda time, or more. And most, but not all had pft. So you had to have the time, plus 5-6-7k all for the privilege of flying a turbo prop for $10-12-14/hr.

Also, there was a time when both Eagle and AWAC had the same published minimums;

2500tt, 1000me with preferably 500 turbine and some 131/135 experience.

So along the lines of what others said, experience level has NO bearing on entry level pay.

Man I know that feeling

10 good jobs, that way it frees up the other 40 to get really pizzed off and take the pitchforks and torches to D.C. to do a very long overdue housecleaning.

It was also enough to qualify me for food stamps back then!

Im a 12 year guy at Delta, a 911 era legacy pilot. Almost all of my buds have seen at least 1 furlough and or loss of a job, regardless of who they worked for. Only a couple have come through the last 10 years with what would be considered a good career so far. Outsourcing has led to more pilots making less money and fewer pilots making the good money. If I knew at 21 what I know now, I would not be an airline pilot. It's unfortunate when you achieve your "dream" only to find out that you're not happy with your career. Of course I have many friends that still enjoy the job. Although to most it is still a job and has lost it's appeal of what it once was. Today at Delta I often work just as many days a month as I did at AMR Eagle.

Bottom line, you had better really want this job as it can be a tough life. The 1500 hr rule will only make the up and coming generation spend another year of your life getting flight time, other than that it's not a game changer in regards to compensation.

man, I made it too easy for ya lol

1. I can apply for food stamps.
2. I can actually apply for free food I learned a few days ago.

I don't shout my issues to complain or have a pitty party. I want people to know what it is REALLY like.

less than $1200 profit per month
little less than $1000 minimum payment on education loans (interest+principal)

24 single, no kids

I am supposed to magically (no it is not lucky charms - magically delicious) get hired by a regional (if most of them last another 2 years) then a major (bc i had an internship with one from TX) then what....be at home half the time after I meet a woman on the road (hotel front-desk girl or if i started drinking...bar-tender?)

Someone who has made it...tell me it is worth it (i aint talkin abt the supposed-stupid 100K pay)? Are there any dads that are fathers?

I would say all of them. :D

If you are trying to make some correlation between traveling and how good a parent a person can be then you'll be struggling.
There are plenty of wonderful PARENTS who travel and plenty of terrible ones who stay at home.

USMCFLYR

The number of pilots that the majors will hire in the next 10-20 years is staggering. Someone hired at, say Delta, in 3 years will have a very different career that what I have had. Im at 12 years and have worked most weekends and holidays over the last 5 years. I also came back from a 5 year furlough to a company that had a bankrupt pilot contract. Things are slowly getting better at both Delta and the rest of the industry.

By comparison, it's taken me 12 years to get 11% from the bottom of the seniority list. A new hire in a few years will likely be 11% from the bottom within 4! New hires would also come to a company that has a significantly better contract than what we had a few years ago.

The new hires at major airlines in the next few years will more than likely have Great careers in front of them due to all of the retirements. I thought I was going to have a great career and it just never happened. Doesn't mean I won't have a better career down the road, the first 12 years has just been a nightmare.

Bottom line, do you enjoy the job? It's possible you could be a very young captain at a major airline and have many years of high earnings in front of you. Is it worth it? Only you can answer that one. Ask yourself, if there anything else that you want to do that can potentially pay you as much as you could make as a pilot.

Good luck to us all.

Very sobering words to someone who is months away from possibly starting flight training. Sure is a lot to take in and i'm glad I didn't jump into it blind 5 years ago like I had intended. Thank you for your advice

i take home 1200 a month from republic, no idea how you make that much as a fo much less a first year

There is a small window in which to get hired at a mainline and have a good career. If you get hired in say 5 years you're going to be stuck behind guys most likely younger than you for the entire duration. Yes, there will be retirements and some people will get hired but not all will have good careers.

Like some people said you truly have to love flying because there are much better careers out there.

You can disagree all you want... but the fact is per diem is not included in remuneration.

Ramper tells me he'll only let me out the jetway door if I give him 5 bucks. I hate that stupid joke, and I tell him "sorry I'm broke" and push through. He yells down the stairs at me: "Don't lie to me, I know what you make!" I look back and say "are you sure you do? See these three bars, I'm only a first officer" He says, "well it's gotta be near 6 figures." I say: "Try 35K dude" He just stares. I proceed and do my walk around. He catches up to me on the other side of the plane and asks me: "are you being serious about that?" I tell him: Yes, after 10 years at this place that is what I make! He sheepishly says: "Wow, I make 50"

PATHETIC.

full disclosure: I'm quoting reserve guarantee, which I bid on purpose. If I flew 85 hour lines, I might come close to 39K

good post sir