food for thought age 65 may have prevented airlines from having to hire in 2007 and 2008 but it actually may have killed the regional airline model, clearly an unintended consequence.

Something that I don't understand, It made good sense to raise 60 to 65 five years ago for the mainlines. In doing so they didn't have to hire and train but they kept their most expensive pilots at the top end of the pay scale. Why is it that regionals feel that senior pilots are overpaid and prefer to keep the school house running with new cheap labor. I understand that people at the bottom of the pay scale cost a lot less than people at the top but running the school house 24/7 365 days out of the year certainly costs a lot as well.

I've said this numerous times on here. We need to get rid of longevity scales. The top pay scale needs to be the only pay scale. This would solve most of our problems. You could start over at the bottom without losing your house or going on food stamps. I don't even have a problem with starting over on vacation time. I feel an Airbus 320 first officer new hire should make the exact same as an Airbus 320 first officer on 12 year pay. They are doing the exact same job. This would stop giving start-up carriers huge advantages on cost. It would prevent regionals from just shutting down when the group gets senior. At the legacy carriers, every captain is at max pay. They only need to fix the first officer scale. It wouldn't even be that hard to do. At the regional level, it would be a little tougher. A national seniority list will never happen. This is the next best thing.

All pilots paid the same
 

Maybe all pilots should be paid the same even Captains and FO's? The company is always fond of saying that they like to hire captains. An FO essentially goes through the same training program.

Skyhigh

Skywest and RP have the unique ability to finance their own aircraft thanks to a healthy balance sheet. They've been able to leverage this to get contracts they wouldn't normally get, and to get higher compensation in exchange for less financial risk for the mainline customer. That higher compensation offsets their higher costs.

If DL wants 9E to take the next batch of 900's, Delta will need to do the financing. If Skywest takes them, they can finance themselves, taking liabilities off the DL balance sheet.

I heard this idea last week. If management wants us to be the lowest paid pilots in the industry, we should look up what the Great Lakes CEO and below make and say that's what you should make. We all should be lowest paid workers in the industry.

This is ALPAs screw up, and its because of greedy idiot pilots, that are now likely unemployed or will be because they become top heavy and close down. ALPA should just set a rate for flying each plane type, and any time a company employee group votes in ALPA those rates are what they ask for, or else get released to strike. It is what many other union heavy machine operators do.

Agree 100%, if we all had same pay/benefits package, cola every year and got rid of longetivity. Seniority for bidding purposes only.

ALPA has basically committed suicide in the last year or so. They have been trying to please the top while eating their young. I haven't met one single pilot in a couple of years that thinks ALPA represents them properly. Someday down the road in these junior pilots career, they're going to be voting to keep ALPA around or send them packing and we'll all remember the days when ALPA treated us so fairly.

That makes entirely too much sense to ever happen. Too bad, because it is what is fair.

Are you guys kidding me? Without ALPA this company would have whipsawed us against each other. Without ALPA Pinnacle would have used Colgan to force you guys at Pinnacle to take concessions or they would transfer planes to Colgan. None of the three groups had a scope clause in their pre merger contract to stop this.

Without ALPA we would not have this decent JCBA we are working under today, its not perfect but its a LOT better than what Colgan was working under before. And its quite a bit better than what Pinnacle had before (barring health benefits).

What do you think would have happened had we not been 1 pilot group right now? I dont think it would have been pretty.

Everyone likes to ***** at ALPA because things are not always perfect. Let me tell you, Teamsters is terrible and in house unions tend to suck. Take a look at USAPA over at US Airways. I would rather have 1 union representing all airline pilots than a bunch of small ones.

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. I think their point might be that ALPA cares mostly for the senior guys. It is a sentiment shared by many, including me. Are they great?, no. Are they better than all other alternatives?, yes. I do agree with you in having one union represent ALL pilot groups, but it's never going to happen.

You can't effectively have one union represent all pilot groups. You could have one union represent the regional pilot group and another represent the majors, but it is a conflict of interest for one union to represent a major AND the associated regional partner of said major.

You could, in theory, but it will never be allowed to happen. If you think the revolving doors of regional airline's is fast now, just wait to see how fast they create "alternative solutions" with another union representing the regional carriers.

It's legal and logical, in theory....but unattainable.

I'd love to see something like that, with a board of DALPA pilots who could vote to allow exceptions (such as foreign airline or corporate pilots), but the angst over the 35% (Flowthroughs included!) was loud. I still advocate for a higher percentage of ALPA pilots, we will see if that can happen.

On top of that, I'd like to see the UCAL/DAL/ALK/FDX scope sections changed to only allow airlines with ALPA represented pilots be allowed to operate any permitted outsourced aircraft on behalf of that airline.

Unity is leverage.

It is puzzling to me to see how blindsided so many on this forum are. After all that ALPA has f'ed up, so many still WANT to be part of ALPA! That is rediculous in my view.

Do you all not realize that the reason Pinnacle is going to shrink is because Delta's ALPA agreed to a contract predicated on the fact that Pinnacle will SHRINK! They signed a deal that half of the CRJ-200's system wide will be parked in the desert, and only a handful of 900's will be awarded to the LOWEST bidder.

Yet!....So many still say that they want ALPA.

In our legal system, an attorney cannot legally defend the plaintiff AND the defendant. Each side of the isle needs their own representation. Likewise, a regional needs to be represented to best suit their own needs, and a major needs to be represented to best suit their own needs as well.

Pinnacle and each regionally out there could far much farther if they banded together and formed a multi-regional union.

Oh, and before you flame me down, keep this in mind. The total number of CRJ-200's that Delta wants to cut is the exact amount that Pinnacle has. Is this a coincidence? I personally doubt it.

If only half of Pinnacle's CRJ's get parked, then HALF of the Captains will be First Officers again, and ALL of the First Officers will be standing in the unemployment line.

ALL, because of an agreement with the Delta Pilots for their new contract.


Sooo, just keep in mind that the exact amount of regional jets that will be parked as a result of the Delta's ALPA will be the size of Pinnacle. Just imagine each and every Pinnacle Pilot becoming unemployed.........yea, ALPA is NOT looking out for the regional guys. NOPE!

Latest rumor from the schoolhouse is that 9E will lose all of its CRJ-200s.

If that's the case, then how many pilots would be left after the dust settles?

Did u even read deltas TA? The amount of crj 200s they want to cut is the amount that pinnacle has? Had trouble in 2nd grade math did we?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Why Yes, as a matter of fact, I passed 2nd grade math. However, you must have failed 2nd grade english. It is written in this article below, highlighted to help your reading comprehension skills.

http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/n...new-labor.html

The Delta RJ reduction isn't specific to the CRJ-200. It's "50-seat" aircraft. System wide there are 353 50-seaters (ERJ/CRJ).

Chautauqua 26
Comair 30
ExpressJet 93
Pinnacle 141
SkyWest 63
TOTAL 353

The figure I've read has been for a reduction of 218 "50 seaters".

In any event, I'm sure they'll be a big reduction at Pinnacle anyway.

Wow, just.... Wow, I don't even know what to say to you. You tell someone they have failed English and then you come back with this. You, sir, have got to be one of the biggest fools I have had the displeasure of seeing on here. Just, wow...

Let me spell it out for you what the highlighted section means. Out of Pinnacle's entire fleet, a total of 140 (or 141 or 142 depending on your source) are the type (50-seater) that Delta wishes to park. NOT those exact 140 birds. And the number Delta needs to park is Much higher than 140 (as others have explains to you after me edit).

Wow..

You sir, are on a very low level. If you believe delta is only parking that amount of 50 seat rjs, then I truly don't want my family on a plane with u flyin it.

Delta’s ALPA unit says it initiated the ratio concept.

The agreement lets Delta add 70 more 76-seat aircraft to its regional fleet, if it adds 88 mainline narrowbody aircraft and cuts its 50-seat fleet by more than 200 aircraft. But as Delta adds more 76-seat aircraft, the minimum ratio rises.

For example, when Delta adds its first 76-seat aircraft, the ratio starts out as a requirement for Delta to provide 1.1 block hours of flying for every hour of block flying outsourced to Delta Connection carriers. But the ratio increases for every 10 additional 76-seaters that Delta adds to Delta Connection service, ending at a mandate for 1.56 hours of mainline block hours for every hour at Delta Connection if the mainline operator adds at least 61 new 76-seaters to regional carrier operations. Once a new ratio is established, Delta cannot reduce it under most circumstances.

That guarantees mainline pilots at least 60.9% of the domestic block hours if Delta adds 61-70 of the 76-seaters, the Delta ALPA leadership says.

He's probably flame bait

um... it is saying pinnacle has the exact plane they want to phase out, not the exact number that needs to be cut. Reading comprehension is becoming a lost skill.

Read it one more time... the part you have in red. :)

Sounds like you are in denial. Time to face the facts. Pinnacle is on life support at the moment. It's only a matter of time before it shuts down.

Those new CRJ-900's are not going to 9E, more like GoJets, SkyWest. Pinnacle cannot get their crap together and is a dead dinosaur.

Can't do 3 separate list.

That was not your arguement whatsoever. I can repost if u prefer. U said I don't understand English because u claimed that pinnacle has the exact amount of 50 seaters that the new delta scope is going to park. Please quote me where I said anything about pinnacle being financially viable, or stood up for them. Until then go back to second grade, and quit posting. U lost.

If you understood the association structure and how mainline and regional contracts are negotiated and how RFPs and CPAs/ASAs are negotiated and awarded, you would understand that there is absolutely no conflict of interest.

THIS POST MADE ME LAUGH!!!!

Are you freakin kidding me????????

WHAT A JOKE!!!!

No response to me calling u out? Whoo! I said whoooo! Ashley Schaefer BMW!

You probably won't be excited to be unionless when JB gets bought. ;)

Then there is not a true equal standard of representation....

Nope, no joke at all. No regional ALPA MEC can tell ANY other airline MEC what to negotiate for. Each MEC is an independent union, especially when it comes to what they negotiate for. Mainline MECs negotiate with mainline management on the scope of their job. Once that is settled mainline management puts out an RFPS for whatever flying the mainline MEC was unable or unwilling to scope in. The lowest regional bidder wins. Then the regional management negotiates with regional MECs on the pay an work rules for those scraps. There is never a time where regional management or regional MECs have any say in operating bigger or more aircraft. It has already been decided between mainline management and mainline MEC. Also, at no time does any mainline MEC or regional MEC tell any other MEC what to negotiate for. And if they did, they would be laughed out of the room. The regionals exist ONLY because mainline MECs cannot or will not scope that flying. It's their flying to keep or give away. They are the ones who let us regionals exist. Therefore, no conflict of interest whatsoever.

What do you mean?

Regional unions push for higher wages at regional airlines which makes it more difficult for regionals to undercut mainline flying. I don't understand how there's a conflict of interests. Higher pay at regionals might deprive regionals of flying, but it certainly does not hurt mainline pilots. Lower pay at regionals undercuts mainline pilots so a weaker regional union is bad for both regional and mainline pilots.

Operator of Delta Connection names CFO - Atlanta Business Chronicle

looks like the old silver CFO is now at pinnacle. good luck.....

I don't know about that. According to DOT stats, eagle has one of the worst on time performances. In addition, buzz from US management states that eagle does not make money in its current form, and in event of a merger, their operation would need to be drastically modified.

source?? The DOT stats I think are slightly skewed, since we are larger then many we are compared to. We have been making the on time and completion bonuses all year.