|
Originally Posted by Red Forman
(Post 1279866)
No, I'm a person with a little sense that can easily see how too many people at ALPA are making too much money for the product they offer. You are free to keep playing cheerleader though.
|
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1279875)
ALPA employees have taken cut after cut over the past ten years, and the number of staff members has been reduced by a third. ALPA managers imposed contract terms on the professional employees for a two year period and eventually forced the union to cave on a deal that significantly altered their benefits package. And you want to play more hardball? Frankly, I think it's disgusting how poorly we treated our employees. Expecting even more blood out of that turnip is crazy.
|
Originally Posted by Red Forman
(Post 1279906)
And most of them still make too much. .............
How much should an Office manager Make? I constantly read on these forums that Good wages make a better more productive employee. Gee isn't that what we always say about ourselves? Pilots are highly skilled and deserve to be paid god wages.....right? I guess that doesn't apply to our own employees. You want bad service, cut their wages and reduce benefits. |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1279875)
ALPA employees have taken cut after cut over the past ten years, and the number of staff members has been reduced by a third. ALPA managers imposed contract terms on the professional employees for a two year period and eventually forced the union to cave on a deal that significantly altered their benefits package. And you want to play more hardball? Frankly, I think it's disgusting how poorly we treated our employees. Expecting even more blood out of that turnip is crazy.
The irony here is that you are criticizing and cheerleading for ALPA in the same post. I noticed the Air Tran pilots voted for this resolution even though you won't be in ALPA when this takes effect...Your MEC should have abstained from this vote.... |
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
(Post 1279952)
How much should an Attorney Make?
How much should an Office manager Make? I constantly read on these forums that Good wages make a better more productive employee. Gee isn't that what we always say about ourselves? Pilots are highly skilled and deserve to be paid god wages.....right? I guess that doesn't apply to our own employees. You want bad service, cut their wages and reduce benefits. |
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
(Post 1279952)
How much should an Attorney Make?
How much should an Office manager Make? I constantly read on these forums that Good wages make a better more productive employee. Gee isn't that what we always say about ourselves? Pilots are highly skilled and deserve to be paid god wages.....right? I guess that doesn't apply to our own employees. You want bad service, cut their wages and reduce benefits. |
Originally Posted by JoeMerchant
(Post 1279970)
Sorry, but asking a 30K a year regional pilot to pay more for ALPA is so absurd that it illustrates just how out of touch this disfunctional "union" is....
I bet if you ask your MEC Secretary Treasurer how much Dues is collected from your members compared to how much money you get from ALPA, that you are getting the better part of the bargain. Most regional MECs (not all) are funded off the backs of the legacies and Cargo. We don't complain for that. Maybe all the Members with Retirement plans should get refund for all the dues paid on their 401K plans the last several years. Shouldn't we all pay the same percentage no matter how big or how small? |
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
(Post 1279952)
How much should an Attorney Make?
How much should an Office manager Make? I constantly read on these forums that Good wages make a better more productive employee. Gee isn't that what we always say about ourselves? Pilots are highly skilled and deserve to be paid god wages.....right? I guess that doesn't apply to our own employees. You want bad service, cut their wages and reduce benefits. |
Originally Posted by JoeMerchant
(Post 1279963)
Airline pilots have taken cut after cut over the past ten years, and the number of pilots at the mainline level, and now even at the regional level has been reduced by a similar level within ALPA.
The irony here is that you are criticizing and cheerleading for ALPA in the same post. I noticed the Air Tran pilots voted for this resolution even though you won't be in ALPA when this takes effect...Your MEC should have abstained from this vote.... |
If regional pilots were smart (and had some balls), they'd form a half dozen or so pilots in a group and get grass roots movement to form a new union strictly for the interests of regional airline pilots and coordinate with equivalent groups at other regional carriers.
If you could form a new regional union for the largest 2 or 3 regionals, I'm sure most others would follow. If you really examine ALPA's effectiveness over the last decade for ALL its represented pilots, you'd see they've become virtually worthless. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1280334)
If regional pilots were smart (and had some balls), they'd form a half dozen or so pilots in a group and get grass roots movement to form a new union strictly for the interests of regional airline pilots and coordinate with equivalent groups at other regional carriers.
If you could form a new regional union for the largest 2 or 3 regionals, I'm sure most others would follow. If you really examine ALPA's effectiveness over the last decade for ALL its represented pilots, you'd see they've become virtually worthless. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280341)
Yes, that sounds like a great idea. Then they could pay 5% dues because that's what it would take to fund such a venture, and even then only if the biggest regionals like Eagle and ASA/XJT were to join. Without them, think 10% dues. So, in other words, that wouldn't be such a smart move after all.
An initial funding of perhaps $1,000 per pilot of say 6,000 pilots of the top 2 regionals would be an initial stake of 6 million which would serve those pilots well considering their numbers. More pilots = more stake. 1% annual dues would do well also as you wouldn't be paying half million dollar annual compensation for the top officers or have an excessively bloated operational structure. They could join the AFL-CIO too, not that clout in Washington means anything as ALPA has proved over the last decade with their continued impotence. Exiting quickly may also free them from the likely massive assessment and/or additional dues increase to pay for their malfeasance in representing the interests of the former TWA pilots. Nope, this is a no-brainer and even a cave man could see that. The only ones who can't are hopeless ALPA lapdogs and lackeys. |
Originally Posted by JoeMerchant
(Post 1279201)
You have a retirement in addition to a 401k. For most ALPA members we only have a 401k.
The fact is, your dues are going down, while the majority of ALPA members are going to pay more in dues. This was a huge mistake and will hopefully be the end of ALPA. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1280334)
If regional pilots were smart (and had some balls), they'd form a half dozen or so pilots in a group and get grass roots movement to form a new union strictly for the interests of regional airline pilots and coordinate with equivalent groups at other regional carriers.
If you could form a new regional union for the largest 2 or 3 regionals, I'm sure most others would follow. If you really examine ALPA's effectiveness over the last decade for ALL its represented pilots, you'd see they've become virtually worthless. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. |
Originally Posted by Red Forman
(Post 1279906)
And most of them still make too much. Like the post above mentioned, it's hard to sell a product when it stinks and no one wants to but it.
Hello pot, this is kettle..... It's ironic how many people advocate the reduction of other's salaries; yet when someone comes knocking for theirs, the sabers are rattled. What a freaking joke! |
Originally Posted by Cruise
(Post 1280367)
Perhaps you make too much as well? Please, let us all know why you believe you're worth the money you earn???
Hello pot, this is kettle..... It's ironic how many people advocate the reduction of other's salaries; yet when someone comes knocking for theirs, the sabers are rattled. What a freaking joke! |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1280349)
Pure B.S.
An initial funding of perhaps $1,000 per pilot of say 6,000 pilots of the top 2 regionals would be an initial stake of 6 million which would serve those pilots well considering their numbers. Talk about "pure B.S." More pilots = more stake. 1% annual dues would do well also as you wouldn't be paying half million dollar annual compensation for the top officers or have an excessively bloated operational structure. As far as a 1% dues structure being able to fund a regional pilot's union, that's nothing but pure fantasy. We had an independent union at AirTran prior to joining ALPA. Our dues rate during contract negotiations was 2.15%. Even with that dues rate, we struggled to have enough money to fund the essentials, and that was with very few people ever on flight pay loss. I have a feeling that you don't have an understanding of just how much it costs to hire attorneys, professional negotiators, accountants, and financial analysts, all of which are absolutely necessary for even the basic functioning of a labor union. That doesn't even begin to look at the other people like R&I specialists, Aeromedical, accident investigators, and so on. The costs to fund all of this are astronomical. Your $6 million figure as being something that could work shows just how clueless you are about how expensive this stuff is. You wouldn't even scratch the surface of necessary services for several pilot groups at that amount of money. They could join the AFL-CIO Exiting quickly may also free them from the likely massive assessment and/or additional dues increase to pay for their malfeasance in representing the interests of the former TWA pilots. |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280386)
Yes, because I know a whole lot of regional FOs (or even captains) who can throw down $1,000 at the drop of a hat. :rolleyes:
Talk about "pure B.S." Anyone who thinks that the ALPA structure is "bloated" hasn't been to Herndon or the DC Office in many, many years (or never). Such an argument might have been made in the "good old days," but not now. ALPA runs quite lean. Some would say too lean. As far as a 1% dues structure being able to fund a regional pilot's union, that's nothing but pure fantasy. We had an independent union at AirTran prior to joining ALPA. Our dues rate during contract negotiations was 2.15%. Even with that dues rate, we struggled to have enough money to fund the essentials, and that was with very few people ever on flight pay loss. I have a feeling that you don't have an understanding of just how much it costs to hire attorneys, professional negotiators, accountants, and financial analysts, all of which are absolutely necessary for even the basic functioning of a labor union. That doesn't even begin to look at the other people like R&I specialists, Aeromedical, accident investigators, and so on. The costs to fund all of this are astronomical. Your $6 million figure as being something that could work shows just how clueless you are about how expensive this stuff is. You wouldn't even scratch the surface of necessary services for several pilot groups at that amount of money. Highly doubtful that the AFL would ever accept a competing pilot's union for membership. Our profession doesn't have a big enough membership to justify multiple unions within the AFL. There will be no assessments or additional dues. The top officers total compensation approaches $500K which is obscene considering their performance......or lack thereof. I'll continue to laugh heartily at any sucker who's convinced themselves throwing their money away to these people is worthwhile. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1280396)
A beautiful (but empty) propagandist diatribe. Every day regional pilots keep their cart hitched to this wobbly horse is another lost day. The lapdogs and lackeys don't want regional pilots to leave ALPA because that way ALPA can't control them and continue to use them as doormats for mainline pilots interests. As long as any regional chains themselves to this master they will remain indentured servants in perpetuity.
The top officers total compensation approaches $500K which is obscene considering their performance......or lack thereof. I'll continue to laugh heartily at any sucker who's convinced themselves throwing their money away to these people is worthwhile. Deleted......just not worth it. |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1280396)
The lapdogs and lackeys don't want regional pilots to leave ALPA because that way ALPA can't control them and continue to use them as doormats for mainline pilots interests. As long as any regional chains themselves to this master they will remain indentured servants in perpetuity.
The top officers total compensation approaches $500K |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280466)
Nice rhetoric, but no facts to back it up. Regional pilots gain a tremendous amount by their membership in ALPA. Mainline pilots subsidize the operation of their MECs and provide resources that they could never dream of having on their own. But that's ok, because mainline pilots are smart enough to realize that everyone working together within a single union is worth the extra expense. A rising tide lifts all boats. There is no nefarious purpose. It is simply smart for everyone to work together.
As long as you continue to repeat blatant nonsense like this, you have zero credibility. The president is the highest compensated officer within the Association, and he makes $335k per year. Plenty of pilots at his own airline at his seniority level make more than he does. And they do it while working far less. No officer comes even close to making the absurd number that you've thrown out there. Get your facts straight and stop listening to the losers over at the DPA. |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280466)
Nice rhetoric, but no facts to back it up. Regional pilots gain a tremendous amount by their membership in ALPA. Mainline pilots subsidize the operation of their MECs and provide resources that they could never dream of having on their own. But that's ok, because mainline pilots are smart enough to realize that everyone working together within a single union is worth the extra expense. A rising tide lifts all boats. There is no nefarious purpose. It is simply smart for everyone to work together.
As long as you continue to repeat blatant nonsense like this, you have zero credibility. The president is the highest compensated officer within the Association, and he makes $335k per year. Plenty of pilots at his own airline at his seniority level make more than he does. And they do it while working far less. No officer comes even close to making the absurd number that you've thrown out there. Get your facts straight and stop listening to the losers over at the DPA. |
Originally Posted by samballs
(Post 1280477)
Not worth that much, what about, pension, spending account, If memory serves me right living expenses, to name a few. I don't get paid by the airline to have a place in Chicago for when I can't make it home
As far as a "spending account," that doesn't exist. He only gets his legitimate union expenses reimbursed, and they have to be accounted for individually with receipts. And the apartment that is provided is simply because he's required to be in DC by the Association for a temporary job. He's only there for four years. You can't expect him to sell his home, move his family to DC, only to be out of office four years later. We have to provide temporary accommodations for him while he's in office. That's not "compensation." He's still paying for his real home and all of the expenses that go along with it. Comparing this to your crashpad doesn't hold water. This is more like a TDY, because it's a temporary gig. Take a look at your CBA's TDY provisions and see what it provides. It's basically the same as what ALPA provides. Positive space transportation, lodging, and meals. Nothing unusual here, folks. Some people seem to want to make the President and other Officers suffer while they're in office. That's pretty ridiculous. Providing what they would have as a line pilot, plus a reasonable override for the countless extra hours of work, is entirely reasonable. |
Originally Posted by Cruise
(Post 1280367)
Perhaps you make too much as well? Please, let us all know why you believe you're worth the money you earn???
Hello pot, this is kettle..... It's ironic how many people advocate the reduction of other's salaries; yet when someone comes knocking for theirs, the sabers are rattled. What a freaking joke! Just like when a CEO makes poor decisions and puts their company in jeopardy while making a ton of money. Most sensible people think they don't deserve it because of the poor job that was done. |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280489)
The pension isn't extra compensation, it merely replaces what he loses as a result of not working at his airline. While he's at ALPA, he receives no A-Fund credit (if his carrier has one), no B-Fund contributions, no C-Fund contributions, and no 401k matching funds. He gets nothing towards his retirement. The pension merely makes up for that.
As far as a "spending account," that doesn't exist. He only gets his legitimate union expenses reimbursed, and they have to be accounted for individually with receipts. And the apartment that is provided is simply because he's required to be in DC by the Association for a temporary job. He's only there for four years. You can't expect him to sell his home, move his family to DC, only to be out of office four years later. We have to provide temporary accommodations for him while he's in office. That's not "compensation." He's still paying for his real home and all of the expenses that go along with it. Comparing this to your crashpad doesn't hold water. This is more like a TDY, because it's a temporary gig. Take a look at your CBA's TDY provisions and see what it provides. It's basically the same as what ALPA provides. Positive space transportation, lodging, and meals. Nothing unusual here, folks. Some people seem to want to make the President and other Officers suffer while they're in office. That's pretty ridiculous. Providing what they would have as a line pilot, plus a reasonable override for the countless extra hours of work, is entirely reasonable. |
Originally Posted by samballs
(Post 1280507)
Making up with pension. Not really DAL doesn't have one so he can deposit into his 401k and alpa can match(saves money).
He chooses to take position so its not a tdy, just like I choose to be based in ord I pay for an apartment cause I have to be there. Spending account we all know officers use spending accounts or what ever you would like to call it when they go to eat to discuss union duties,yep can't just talk about it at the office much easier to at a fine dining. See how ridiculous this crap is? The guy is working his ass off for this union. Berating him for conducting business over a dinner and expensing it is completely unreasonable. Don't give me that crap about a lot of people making 335, 000 this aint the early and late 90's |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280531)
DAL most certainly does have a pension. It's just a defined contribution instead of the old defined benefit. Every pilot gets 14% of his gross salary contributed by the company without the the pilot having to contribute a dime. It will soon go up to 15%. The ALPA president isn't eligible to receive this, because he is not a Delta employee while he's the president, and doesn't receive a paycheck from Delta. The only way for him to get any retirement savings while he's president is for it to come directly from ALPA. As someone who's not a Delta employee, he can't even make voluntary contributions to his 401k while he's president.
This is the sort of thing I was talking about about some of you seeming to want to punish the national officers for stepping up and volunteering to do a crappy high-workload job. Look, this is a temporary job. Your job at your airline is not a temporary job. When you bid to ORD, that could just as easily be a permanent position as a temporary position. Not so with the president. He's got a set term. He's there for four years. Expecting him to uproot his family, sell his home (probably at a loss), and move everything to one of the highest cost living areas in the country is just downright stupid. No one would agree to do it, nor should they. Fine. In that case, you don't need to receive per diem. After all, you can just as easily purchase fast food, which costs no more on the road than it does if you were sitting at home, so you don't deserve any additional compensation to make up for the fact that you're required to travel. See how ridiculous this crap is? The guy is working his ass off for this union. Berating him for conducting business over a dinner and expensing it is completely unreasonable. I didn't say that there were "lots," but yes, there are Delta pilots at his seniority making more money than he is, and they're working less in the process. It doesn't take too many green slips to reach that salary for a 767 captain, which is what Captain Moak is. What he's paid by ALPA is clearly within the range of reasonability. House we'll have to disagree there Don't need to have great big dinners(give 2.00 an hr per diem for 9.0 hrs a day five days a week) If one president would do a good job, they wouldn't be berated |
PCL- a DC is NOT a pension. It is a 401k contribution without any need for the employee to contribute any on their own.
|
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1280540)
PCL- a DC is NOT a pension. It is a 401k contribution without any need for the employee to contribute any on their own.
|
Originally Posted by samballs
(Post 1280537)
Alpa can have a 401k no need for a pension.
Don't need to have great big dinners(give 2.00 an hr per diem for 9.0 hrs a day five days a week) If one president would do a good job, they wouldn't be berated |
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1280540)
PCL- a DC is NOT a pension. It is a 401k contribution without any need for the employee to contribute any on their own.
1. Defined benefit pension plans (what Delta used to have), and; 2. Defined contribution pension plans (what Delta has now) Both are pensions. They just operate differently. A 401k is a completely separate kind of plan that falls under different regulations. |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280466)
Nice rhetoric, but no facts to back it up. Regional pilots gain a tremendous amount by their membership in ALPA. Mainline pilots subsidize the operation of their MECs and provide resources that they could never dream of having on their own. But that's ok, because mainline pilots are smart enough to realize that everyone working together within a single union is worth the extra expense. A rising tide lifts all boats. There is no nefarious purpose. It is simply smart for everyone to work together.
Jack Squat. :cool:
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280466)
As long as you continue to repeat blatant nonsense like this, you have zero credibility. The president is the highest compensated officer within the Association, and he makes $335k per year. Plenty of pilots at his own airline at his seniority level make more than he does. And they do it while working far less. No officer comes even close to making the absurd number that you've thrown out there. Get your facts straight and stop listening to the losers over at the DPA.
|
More angry rhetoric, unsubstantiated claims, and hateful accusations. And not a bit of it backed up by facts. You are certainly consistent. I'll give you that.
|
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280658)
More angry rhetoric, unsubstantiated claims, and hateful accusations. And not a bit of it backed up by facts. You are certainly consistent. I'll give you that.
My opinion that regional pilots should expend all possible efforts to distance themselves from ALPA and form a union as quickly as possible that represents their interests as primary is valid. I don't see why this should upset you so much, as obviously it does. |
eaglefly, if anything is "pathological," it's your irrational hatred of an organization of which you claim not to be a member.
|
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280757)
eaglefly, if anything is "pathological," it's your irrational hatred of an organization of which you claim not to be a member.
Have you read some of the trial transcrips of the TWA debacle ? Clearly, it goes well beyond simple failure to represent. Considering ALPA was found by a neutral and impartial judge do be in violation of their duty to fairly represent the TWA pilots, perhaps you could explain LOGICAL reasons why ALPA won't be financially penalized for that and why no dues increase or assessment will be required to offset those damages ? If you need to place a quick call to your chums in Herndon for the politically correct answer, l understand. :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1280823)
Considering the repeated clumsy fumbling of scope over the last 15 years
abandonment of several pilot groups like Midwest and the TWA disaster Have you read some of the trial transcrips of the TWA debacle ? Considering ALPA was found by a neutral and impartial judge do be in violation of their duty to fairly represent the TWA pilots perhaps you could explain LOGICAL reasons why ALPA won't be financially penalized for that and why no dues increase or assessment will be required to offset those damages ? But even if one was awarded, ALPA does have a significant amount of insurance to cover DFR liability. I don't suspect that ALPA will end up needing it in this case, though. |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280952)
Scope decisions are made by individual pilot groups, not by ALPA International.
ALPA represented both the TWA and MEH pilots to the absolute greatest extent possible. Expecting the impossible is not a reasonable expectation. Yes, all of them. And I feel horrible for what happened to the TWA pilots. But their anger and blame are misplaced. The APA and AMR are to blame for their predicament. Not ALPA. A judge didn't make the ruling. A jury did. And I think we all know how intelligent juries can be about very complex cases. This is a two-stage process. The first stage is over, and it can't even be appealed under after the second stage is complete. I have little doubt that ALPA will prevail in an appeal, making the second stage irrelevant. But setting that aside, it's likely that the second stage won't result in an award of any significant damages, anyway. A prior DFR ruling against ALPA resulted in a damages award of $1. Not $1 per pilot, just $1. Total. The jury decided that while ALPA had violated its DFR obligation, that no financial consequences resulted. Therefore, no big monetary award. The same sort of ruling is likely in this case. While a jury ruled ALPA in violation of its DFR obligation, a second jury is very likely to see that nothing that ALPA could have done would have resulted in the TWA pilots receiving anymore money, so a monetary penalty isn't justified. But even if one was awarded, ALPA does have a significant amount of insurance to cover DFR liability. I don't suspect that ALPA will end up needing it in this case, though. Terrible sounding parade band, but amusing to watch all scrunched up in that alley from a distance. :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1280952)
Yes, all of them. And I feel horrible for what happened to the TWA pilots. But their anger and blame are misplaced. The APA and AMR are to blame for their predicament. Not ALPA. The TWA pilots were layed at the alter for APA. |
Originally Posted by CanyonBlue
(Post 1281095)
You've got to be kidding me. You can lay the blame on Duane Worthless. He tried to cut a deal to bring APA into the ALPA fold, and he (and the TWA pilots) lost. Big time.
The TWA pilots were layed at the alter for APA. Lunacy. Wasn't ALPA sued by UAL pilots and paid a settlement out of court (if they were innocent, why pay ?) and I heard something about some AirTran pilots next in line. I wonder who will be after them ? Nope, if you are a regional pilot ALPA is your anchor and I'll stand by that assessment. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:16 AM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands