I didn't think about it that way. I was just thinking about in comparison to today, but I see the point of confusion.

The saddest part of it is that pilots voted on contracts that allowed most of the regional growth. How many 76 regional jets are there going to be in 2014?

Now you've got it. :)

With 100% those being forced down their throats in bankruptcy contracts. Thankfully the latest DL contract pares down the regional fleet significantly at the expense of a few more 76 seaters. I didn't like how many were allowed, but I'm ok with the concept.

All this is another part of why this conversation is going on at Pinnacle... once the 88 717s are taken (raising quite a few more mainline jobs than there are today, too), it is more than one airline's worth of 50 seaters that have to be parked, and they seem to be intent on dumping them even earlier than required (a major reason why I voted no on the TA, but that's water under the bridge) .

I was under the impression that the 717s were part of a fleet modernization plan, replacing old 9's and 88s, and as a result, a minimal change in pilot numbers. But hey, the more jobs the merrier!!

The 717s are to replace lift of the DC-9s (17 left) and CRJs being parked. Mainline fleet count is now ~720 and with the delivery of the 717s, the mainline fleet is planned to go to 796. That's quite a few more pilot positions and 20 airplanes more than DL/NW combined had premerger.

Here's to some relief from the pain, stagnation, and otherwise craphole that the state of things are now.

Looking at the way things are going, I would say the 717's are replacing the current 76 seat jet routes(former DC9), while the new and newer 76 seat jets will be replacing the 50 seat jets on most of their current routes. In other words, Delta is simply up-sizing its fleet instead of shifting flying back to mainline, but scope relief takes time. You will know the answer to this if the next Dal TA has more 76 seat jets in it, but with shorter route limits vs block hour limits.

You're exactly right- in part. The way I phrased it (which is the way DL phrases it) is that the seats lost by parking the 50 seaters and DC-9s are being replaced by the 717s. Also, of course, by the additional allowed 76 seaters.

Semantics. :)

Also, I don't know about more 76 seaters in the next TA... we'll see. The current TA drastically reduces the amount of seats (and even moreso aircraft) that are currently at DCI and transfers those back to mainline.

Except the amount of DCI seats leaving via 50 seaters exceeds what is coming in via additional 76 seaters. Also, with 300+ 50 seaters and 255 large RJs the DCI fleet currently sits at 550+ airframes. So we will be seeing more mainline flying & less DCI flying, mainly through a reduction in total DCI airframes and seats.

Absolutely, but wait until Delta starts bragging about having two class service to Bemidji, then you will understand what I'm saying.

Freedom's 12 CRJ900s went straight to Pinnacle in 2008.

And then went to XJ and ASA...

So, the net gain will be about 240 pilots (or roughly a 2% increase)? IF the others "Legacy" carriers can follow suit and add 2%, that is only another 600 new slots. If the LLCs do likewise, that is an addition 250 slots. Cargo companies, and maybe another couple hundred..

So IF EVERYBODY grows as much as it APPEARS Delta will, there might be enough openings to re-employ about half of the Pinnacle folks after we go tango uniform.* Yeah, how about that pilot shortage!

Hey, it's great you are taking back some jobs: G#d bless y'all. But the reality is, for some of us old farts, it's too little, too late.




*Sorry Comair folks, I would have put you guys ahead of us, but I couldn't remember how many of you there were.

There were 2000 pilots when the hurt began.

There were 650 pilots when the hurt ended.

FlyJSH- 796 minus 720= 76.

Times ~10 pilots per plane= 760(+) more pilots than now.

Not quite. At the time the ISL was announced we had 12,434 pilots. We are now down to 11,796 pilots. That's 638 less pilots. We are looking at 20 planes more then we had at the time of the merger. So we are looking at over 800 new positions.

I've been hearing for a while now that Delta was over staffed since the merger. So I don't think your estimate of 800 positions is very accurate. Just saying.... Also, it seems your vision is very narrow. You seem to defend Delta for all their business decisions, and to me it appears that you have forgotten where you came from. Congratulations to you for getting hired at mother Delta, but working for Delta may not be everyone's dream. The scope of Deltas actions is a lot bigger than adding 200 or so positions. Try looking at the thousands of people that lose their jobs because of greedy investors, or all the smaller communities that lose their service because of Deltas egotistical view on prop airplanes. I hear all the time from Delta pilots how the regionals should have stayed commuter and never been given jets. Now, I ask you this, how is this possible with Deltas view on turboprops? The regionals took many years to get to the level they are at now, and Deltas expedited reduction is hurting a lot of good people, and good families. What is the rush? You say it's just business, and maybe that's the way it is now. But not that long ago employers used to show compassion, and not just look at the almighty dollar

johnso isnt far off....

We were a bit overstaffed at 12454 at the merger for 767 planes. Now we are the same overstaffed at 11796 for 720 planes.

Taking the airline to 796 airplanes...


And, gojo- the fact is that outsourcing to the regionals is way overdone. What was sowed is now being reaped, unfortunately at the (temporary) expense of the pilots who either chose to stay there or many who are stuck.

Okay, I get that. The 638 that left, how many of those would like to come back? How many have left for good? So, from the time of the merger, until whenever these last 20 planes are on the ramp, the net increase in jobs is 200 ish, about 70 per year, or roughly 0.6%. Looking at retirement numbers over the next 5-10 years, across the board, about 2-3% per year will go. At that rate, it will be too late for many of us who refuse to go back to ramen noodles just to stay current.

I guess this nearly fifty year old is just feeling a little sorry for himself. I would have been perfectly happy flying my dirty old Saab until either her (or my) wheels fell off. Unfortunately, that won't happen.

You know the Saab would've out lasted even the youngest on the seniority list!

None. Since those are gone for good. Retirements and such....


...and we've got a few more days until the Age 65 stagnation ends.....

Um....what? So what you're saying is it's only Delta execs reducing service, outsourcing to the lowest bidder, & maximizing profits? Because you're wrong. They all do it. Are you saying Pinnacle cares for it's employees? Or ExpressJet, PSA, Piedmont, Us Air, Mesa, UAL, American Airlines, TranStates, Republic, or Spirit to name a few? Don't try to single Delta out, because you can't. Check out UAL's latest scope proposal. It's almost identical to DAL.

And where am I'm cheering for loss of jobs? I'm simply stating facts that pilot jobs are being shifted back to mainline. And many of the smaller communities you mention only have service because the airports are part of EAS routes. Service will not stop to those communities. It just won't be on Delta. And if it does, gripe to the government. They control it. And Delta still uses EMB120's operated by Skywest and SF340's operated by Silver Airways.

I have not forgot where I came from, or how I got to where I am. But I'm tired of seeing people point fingers at Delta pilots for Pinnacle's problems. Pinnacle is in the situation they are because of one reason, and that's Pinnacle management.

Have you compared the rates "before" and "after"? Do you really see the aftermath?

Feel free to bite back, be sure to research first. I remember high school, with parents and friends completely nieve to reality, welcome to the club. Denial is the best avenue to happiness.

While mgmt did screw it up, your posts give off every bit of stereotype involving "moving on and bashing the past".

If you're referring to 9e proposed concesssionary rates, I fail to see how that is relevant to my point. Delta pilots did not create those rates. Delta pilots latest contract didn't create those rates. Bankruptcy creates those rates.

How am I bashing the past? I hold no ill will towards regional pilots. Show me where I've put any blame on the pilots. My coming on here and defending Delta pilots is in no way "moving on and bashing the past". I also flew for a regional were pilots were paid more to fly 50 seaters then most 51+ seat operators.

And explain to me just exactly what I'm am in denial about.

Whoa.... 10,000 posts?

And not even close to the highest amount. :D

I believe the only reason mainline is taking back DCI feed is to insulate itself from the loss of feed by shutting down expensive DCI carriers like OH and possibly 9E. Once this major wage adjustment is done at the regional level, you will lose those routes again as quickly as you got them. Obama's America is a bankrupt America, only the very lean and mean companies will survive this onslaught of higher taxes and regulations. Anderson knows this, do we?

A few of these Delta posters have kool-aid soaked shirts they are drinking so much of it. As soon as they are done squeezing the blood out of the regionals they will go right back to the mainline employees like they did in the early 2000's. Delta might be top dog now but that won't last long.

To quote Bachman turner overdrive..."ain't seen nothing yet." Wait til we get hit with a comprehensive energy tax and jet a goes to about $10 a gallon. Ima start working now on my monorail drivers license.

I see where you got your better than everyone else attitude

I see where you got your resent and bitterness from. :rolleyes:

To whom, & to what aircraft? The DCI fleet is being capped at 450 aircraft. It's at 550+ aircraft right now.

I didn't say that at all, but Delta is leading the way. And I'm talking all the way down to ground handling. It's pathetic what their doing to Regional elite, Pinnacle, and what they've already done to comair. I'm appalled that you think it's ok??? I suspect I'd hear a different tune if you were on the other side. I'm not sure why your point of view is so lopsided. I would think as a moderator you'd be more open minded. I agree that Pinnacle's management has been less than stellar, but Delta guided them into banruptcy, and is pulling the strings through the bankruptcy process. Pinnacle's management, as well as others, are like puppets. They do whatever Delta tells them too.Do you think it was a coincidence that Pinnacle got rid if their Saabs and Q 400's that we flew for United and Continental? No, It was a condition for Delta to provide the DIP financing that we fly for no one else. Ask youself what Delta has to gain if Pinnacle is successful in setting a new bottom in the regional indusrty? They get to maximize their profits even more at the expense of others. We are already under paid. And that's going to set off a chain reaction for the rest of DCI to follow. You said youself that you flew a 50 seater for more than what most people make flying 51+ seats. I'd be willing to be that it wasn't as a Delta connection.

Being a moderator does not exclude me from having an opinion. And you keep missing my point. At no time have I posted that I was not turned off by what Delta is doing to RES. I stated that what is happening to 9E is not Delta PILOTS fault. You are the one that continues to imply that I have no problem with Delta dropping the guantlet on their outsourced help. Outsourcing is a nasty part of business, & all industries are guilty of it. I'm sure Pinnacle is guilty of outsourcing to lower paying jobs, but I don't see pilots leaving their jobs because of it.


Of course they did!! Why in the world would Delta provide financing to Pinnacle that in turn would support their competitors lift?!!!!!? If you ran a business, would you loan money to someone who in turn would use it to provide services for one of your competitors? I highly doubt you would. Also, was 9E management forced to accept DIP financing from Delta? Were the terms were laid out before hand?


Delta gains cheap terms. That means higher profits. That's business, & all Legacy airlines are guilty of it. It's a nasty part of the industry. Delta is not the only one guilty of whipsaw. It was happening under Continental's fist when I was at CoEx. AMR is doing it to Eagle. It's part of the industry, & it sucks.

Yes now, tomorrow is a different story. Do you honestly believe better economic times are ahead with the morons we have in government now. This all rides on the economy, I'm sorry but I don't have a warm and fuzzy about this. The bankruptcy game can and has been played at mainline also. Your scope isn't worth the paper it's printed on for that very reason. I seriously hope I am dead wrong on this. Time as always is the acid test.

I'm not getting into politics because it violates the rules of this forum. However, our scope clause along with our multiple layers of no furlough clauses prevented furloughs in 2009. Remember, this was after fuel spiked at $147 per barrel & the economy entered a recession? UAL, CAL, Us Air, AA furloughed while DAL did not. Management knew furloughs would incur massive costs which outweighed savings from furloughs. So while they can't stop furloughs 100% of the time, they do make furloughs much more expensive.

Also, management doesn't have a magic BK button they can push whenever they want savings. It's not that easy. It took 80+ years for Delta to enter BK. Delta was days from liquidation when they filed. And now there is way less pension obligation payments, much lower lease payments, lower labor costs, etc.

Furloughs are always a threat in this industry. It comes with the territory.

You work for an contract company that can be replace at anytime. It is not just a 9e thing. It is in any business. What does delta owe you? Do you actually work for delta? What name is on your check?

Bankruptcy creates those rates, management closed Comair down, Pinnacle management is the root of all Pinnacle's problems .... I could add more.

Man up and be truthful about Delta pilots role in all of this mess; first with Comair, and now, apparently, with Pinnacle. All your posts show no responsiblity, whatsoever, for the current condition of the regionals. (And before you start the rant about the history of the regionals - I am specifically referring to current devolution of the DCI fleet.) You have accelerated the race to the bottom and exacerbated it's gravity.

And, I, for one, have a long memory. Someday the other show will drop, and it will be Delta pilots turn to take the fall. You can't keep brow-beating DCI pilot rates without it eventually having an effect on your own.

What needs to be understood here is the current management team did not put us in BK. Phil's management team did.

I think the furloughed 2001 delta/NWA guys and gals might have a long memory also.