I agree with you there.

But look at the here and in now, what the little jets are doing will have trickle down for the same peirod of time that you said.

What does compensation look like if it the industry decides to put you in furlough for a couple of years vs. flying for a regional in the top 15% and making money and flying a chunk of time every month.

How many furloughs can you take in that thirty year window before you saw that you could have broke even at something that was not mainline.

I am not saying that I want to spend my life in the regionals either. I would like to move on and I feel that I got nearly the same window that you do being that I am 27 now.

Another thought, I dont know if the industry will change a great deal from now if the mainlines keep filing for bankruptcy protection and not getting liquidated by their creditors. I think too sends a bitter message.

I am not trying to start a fight, just speaking out loud, and feel free to show where I am wrong, then I can learn more.

Reeves

 

Yeah, thats right! So where my six figures? We don't even have an auto pilot thats got to be worth at least another 10K Though I have to admit it would be nice to double my salary and make 30k. Guess I'll have to wait till I make Capt

 

Reeves Quote:
What does compensation look like if it the industry decides to put you in furlough for a couple of years vs. flying for a regional in the top 15% and making money and flying a chunk of time every month.

How many furloughs can you take in that thirty year window before you saw that you could have broke even at something that was not mainline.

I could not agree with you more. That is exactly what my thinking is. Forget the B.S. and uncertainty that comes with a major. Have a good QOL and descent pay at the top of a regional, Make 30,000 less than you would at a major with much more stability and much less B.S.. I think I can make my financial situation work making 100,000 a year instead of 130,000 or even 150,000.

BoilerUp Quote:

Even if furloughed, time is on my side and I stand to gain MUCH more in compensation across my career from making the jump, compared to if I had stayed at my current employer.

I know at least two professors at my school who would probably disagree. One is a 6 year furlough from northwest, the other is a 7 year furlough from northwest. Both have been "waiting it out" as they have been told year after year that they are coming back soon. Now neither of them have flown anything but warriors for the past 6/7 years and they are still waiting for that call. I bet they would have made more as a 7 year captain at any of the regionals then they made as a 7 year professor. I bet they would make a different decision if they could do it all over.

 

No. Larger aircraft are inherently more efficient as measured by cost per available seat mile (CASM). This is simple economy of scale. Regional jets only makes sense under these cirumstances:

1) A very low volume, but longer-distance route (too few pax to fill a 737/320 and too far for a t-prop) . Slow turbo-props are much more fuel efficient than jets, so they make more sense on shorter routes. On longer routes, they just take too long to get there!

2) Artificial economy due to low pay scales. This is what is driving the regional expansion today. Entry-level pilots used to get paid 19-seat turboprop wages to fly 19 seat turbo-props, and everybody was cool with that. Today entry-level pilots are getting paid 19 seat turboprop wages to fly 90 seat RJ's...management is taking advantage of the younger pilots who don't really know better.

The only fix for this is scope and/or a single pilot list for each brand. Regionals should be limited to 50 seat jets...the economic reality is that some 70/90 seaters would have to be grandfathered because they are already there, but the mainline guys (via alpa) need to grab hold of these 100 seaters while they still can, or we are all hosed...

 

The point about the pay is very true. Larger aircraft should equal more pay, that is a no-brainer. But why can't we have the larger airplanes along with more pay at a regional. I really like the idea of the single pilot list too. Are there any airlines that do this? Allow you to just move from a regional to a major when you have the seniority without changing jobs. Why do the majors even contract out the regional flying? Why don't they just operate all of their own routes? I think instead of using the regionals as a 4-5 year stepping stone it would be much more beneficial to the employees and the employer if they just raised the standards and quality at regionals and retained employees for the long-term. Turnover costs companies lots of money that could be saved and put into better pay.

 

The airlines enjoy the advantage of competition at the regional level to keep labor costs down. They don't WANT all those junior pilots on their list, they would be more organized in negotiations for small- airplane pay, and then that pay would only go up with longevity. The ideal situation for an airline would be to own and operate zero airplanes, and contract out ALL flying...this get's hard to do with the big airplanes because the older pilots are a lot wiser.

There is one and only one reason why regionals are not already on mainline's list: Military Pilots

How does a pilot get into the airlines? The current system has a 23 year old CFI starting at the regionals, working his way up for 6-12 years, then going to the majors. A military pilot has a ten year committment, so by the time he wants an airline job he is 30-something, with a wife, kids, and accustomed to earning $120K+

A single list would require EVERYONE to start at the bottom in the turboprop (or maybe 50 seat RJ), both the CFI and the military guy. The simple fact is that in the traditional military culture of the major airlines it is unthinkable to force that ex-fighter pilot to start at the bottom. The current seniority system allows him to bypass all the crap and go right to the 737/320.

This is understandable in terms of his experience level, but this system is costing the pilot groups dearly because it so conducive to whipsawing...regional vs. regional just to get the flying, forcing wages down. Then mainline pilots get pressured by the low cost of their own regionals!

 

Wow. I hate it to say but you are seriously ignorant of airline economics and history. Its a little embarrassing to hear this stuff coming from a UND guy...

Here is why you can't have larger aircraft with better pay at a regional: that is whats known as a mainline carrier. Why not just have the regionals fly 737s and 757s? Because then you start competing with the mainline carriers. Scope clauses were meant to prevent this from happening. In the end this is better for all of us. Don't fool yourself, the regionals would love to get larger aircraft on property especially when they can pay regional pilots regional pay to fly it. Put this in your pipe and smoke it: the first DC-9s held a maximum of 90 pax. We are now flying 90 seat RJs for a fraction of what a DC-9 driver makes. But for whatever reason the DC-9 is considered a "mainline" aircraft while the RJ is an RJ.

The single pilot list was tried at several companies, most notably American/Eagle, USAirways/Piedmont and Continental/ExpressJet. Used to be when you got hired with ExpressJet you were hired with a Continental seniority number. When your number came up, you went over to Continental. This is great until things start to slide the other way. Ask the Eagle guys how great a flow-through agreement is.

The majors contract out regional flying because it is cheaper (dollars and cents, not necessarily "sense"). It can get REAL cheap when you start whipsawing your regional partners against each other. When United came to ACA and AWAC and wanted it done cheaper, ACA and AWAC said "no, if we do it cheaper we will be out of business" so United turned to Mesa, TSA and RAH who were willing to do the flying for less. Worked great for United (as far as cost goes. Customer service is another issue). We all know how it went for ACA. AWAC gambled on USAirways and it paid off, at least for now. ExpressJet used to be part of Continental but was spun off to raise money and to help lower costs by allowing other regionals to compete for CALs flying in the future. From the standpoint of the majors, they can lower their labor costs if the guy that moves into the right seat of a 737 is a newhire starting at year 1 pay. If it was one list and people flowed from regional to mainline, you are going to have to pay that guy 5th or 6th year pay.

 

Although few like to admit it, yes it IS a replacement aircraft. Mainline SHOULD be operating them, but unfortunately it seems as though most of them will be operated by lower paying "regional" companies.

 

exactly. this is why RJ drivers should NOT get happy about their "airline" getting 190's. This is bad for everybody

 

FreezingFlyBoy,

Thank you for educating me on the issue. There really is no need to start throwing insults at me. I asked the question because I didn't know what the answer was.

UNDGUY