The DAL PWA language Pinnacle wants to change
 

The Delta Pilot Working Agreement honors the following language in ALPA's Administrative Manual.The Pinnacle Bridge Agreement would reorder section 1 D 12, giving senior employed Captains first choice over guys on the street and dilute other ALPA members' rights to 1 D 11.

Arguably, Pinnacle's junior pilots have a better opportunity without the Bridge Agreement.

Small jet flying in the Delta contract is "Permitted." The word "permitted" means:

1. To allow the doing of (something); consent to:
2. To grant consent or leave to (someone); authorize: permitted him to explain.
3. To afford opportunity or possibility for: weather that permits sailing.
v.intr.
To afford opportunity; allow: if circumstances permit.
n. (pûrmt, pr-mt)
1. Permission, especially in written form.
2. A document or certificate giving permission to do something; a license or warrant:

Permitted does not mean relinquishing all rights to, giving away, or allowing someone else to trade. If I permit you to sublease my home, that does not mean that you can sell it, or claim it is yours by an act of adverse posession.

Should one MEC be able to unilaterally change another pilot group's contract?

Not that any sypathetic readers are expected on this side of APC, but if we let one pilot group walk in and start negotiating with another pilot group's management we are going to have a complete mess of contradictory contracts. Worse, when we get to our amenable date it will be an open auction if we let management decide who they are going to make a deal with first.

You make a strong case for why any current 9e FO is probably better off long-term if they were to just hit the street and find other work while applying to majors. But then there is that whole 1000tpic thing, and most of the people that will end up furloughed (sooner or later) as a result of this deal have zero. Currency is going to be the one thing that really causes most people to vote 'yes' here, as the majority will not feel that they are marketable at the major level without pic time or at the regional level without currency.

One paradox of being a regional FO is that although its the least desirable job in our industry; it is generally occupied by people who are the least financially able to give it up.

I'm still not seeing where you think your PWA has been changed by this deal with PCL. It seems that Paragraphs 11 and 12 gives preferential interview rights (and a ratio) to a group of pilots, but they don't preclude preferential interview rights outside of the requirements in these paragraphs. Furthermore, the language is incredibly weak to start with, since it's all "subject to the Company’s objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots."

I think you're really stretching on this one.

That is the WEAKEST language of any agreement I've EVER read!

"subject to" can null and void the entire deal.

It's not a flow through, it's a sales pitch lie.

The 1000pic isn't going to matter. Senior FOs have been hired without the magical 1000?

Its going to be hard for any FO on property now to use the bridge program. According to the agreement you have to be a CA to be eligible. There only going to be around 450 CA positions at the most. There are at least 200-300 lifers on property now that won't move. The leaves at most 250 CA positions that FOs could possibly fill in the future. Not everyone is going to pass the Delta interview or other major interviews they try for so that number of open CA positions will go down making harder and harder to upgrade. You have to be a CA to even get a shot at the bridge program.

Oh yeah and a 7 year term on that crappy TA is rediculous.

Come on. Seriously? The only people who can say that either 1)know people or 2) can improve "workforce diversity"..

It isn't going to matter in 2025? Sure, i'll agree. It isn't going to matter getting hired at GoJet? Doesn't matter at Spirit? Ya probably not.

It is however absolutely going to matter with respect to getting hired at a true major until there are no longer people with that qualification.

Agreed......

i flew with an fo who had been in the game 20+ years and has achieved 960tpic at commuteair, then left to goto dhl as his career ending place....only to be furloughed about 20 years down the line and couldnt even apply at most the majors cause he was 40 hrs short, plus 20ish years of FE and FO experience on heavies....it def pays to get that time however you can...although it sure would be tough if fedex came knocking not to take that jump, even I would i think....but a lesson to have in your head.

as for this flow or interviews, as said above there are so many above, and the furloughs will be not current and out so long, that imo it would b quicker to quit, jump the line so to say, (because isnt going to hire all their feed pilots just like UAL already said), plus it still seems in the shade wether its an interview or a def job.

I don't think Delta has a 1,000 TPIC requirement do they.

Good friend of mine was hired with less, but he had an outstanding background as an Instructor at Delta, then several thousand hours of SIC on jets. His problems was Delta kept recalling him into ground management jobs every time he would be ready for upgrade, so he gave up his seniority, twice, to return to management positions.

Sounds like a good problem to have and not the norm for 99% of us. It is not a paper requirement at DAL but when your applying against 10,000 people who do have it the reality is that DAL, UAL, LCC, FDX, SWA etc all hire on average people with >1000tpic. Again, if you know people in mgmt or if you just so happen to improve workplace diversity then chances are better that you can get hired without it.

As it relates to the whole pncl discussion, this quasi-requirement results in pilots who are going to feel that they are not marketable without that number, and without currency they also wont be as marketable at the regional level. I think those kinda considerations affect the way people vote.

During the last 2 rounds of hiring at Delta in 2008 and 2010, very few new hires didn't have the 1000 PIC. In all reality it's a pretty hard # unless you are very special and connected.

I guess my bus wasn't short enough.

The flows will eat up most of the classroom seats for the 1st couple years of hiring. On top of that you a few airlines with guaranteed interviews. If you don't have flow rights or a guaranteed interview it's going to be extremely competitive getting any of the left over spots.

There won't be any opportunities to get the 1000 PIC at 9E if this thing passes. There won't be any captain spots available. The top is going to log jam, with very very little movement.

That is crystal clear to me and I hope everyone at 9e as well. The only reason I brought it up is because I don't see the people without it going straight to mainline when they are furloughed and jumping in front of the people who have thousands of hours tpic. It seems like a small point, but the reality is that it drives the whole regional pilot game, it is the only reason why GoJet is able to find anyone to fill a seat. The 9e voters who do not have tpic will vote to stay employed as long as possible, because they need to stay current to be competitive at the regional level. Lateral moves suck, but that is the reality that these people are dealing with.

If an Fo at 9E thinks he has a better chance at DAL outside the bridge (admitted it is slim inside) he/she can apply through normal channels. And if "Chuck Yeager" (road show description) get hired thorugh the normal route. If he/she believe it will be a CA deadend then leave now before the rush and try it somewhere else. All a No vote does for them is put them into the job hunt with EVERYONE. If the a/c go to other carriers and the CA's bail who will get the street CA jobs? An FO with 1501 hours and a new ATP or a 7,000 hour CA with 1,000 TPIC? It is best for the FO's to keep CA's stuck at PNCL to keep them out of the job hunt. Vote yes, take your $$, get a job then bail (in that order) and don't look back.

That bonus will be taxed heavily, also hiring won't really happen at the next level for another few years. Vote yes, and Delta has the opportunity to whipsaw other DCI carriers because of your Yes vote. Which in turn would also hit your pocket book at the next carrier you move onto due to having to match what you voted Yes to at 9E. Voting yes then bailing will have lasting ramifications on this industry as a whole. It's no coincidence most 9e'ers advocating a "Yes" vote are senior captains @ 9E.

I'm not telling you how to vote, but have an opened mind because both have variables that will impact you for years to come.

I'd like to look in your crystal ball. The fact is, no one truely knows how a yes or no vote will affect the other regionals. Delta's always dicking with somebody. Whether it's regional airlines or the ground handeling. Comairs gone, so they moved on to Pinnacle. Pinnacles gone, they'll move on to someone else. And don't think it was just because of Pinnacle's bankruptcy. Because that whole thing smells like fish to me.

It's a **** sandwich no matter how you look at it.

So you don't think that the other regionals are going to approach their groups with a memo that states "we have to reorganize to compete with the lower costs of pinnacle" ?

Pattern bargaining is alive and well in the regional industry, just not on the side that benefits us.

Hell, they probably still have the memo sent out last year saved. All they have to do is change "GoJets" to "Pinnacle" in the memo and send it out again....

That's exactly what I think. Re read what I wrote. I said I think that will happen weather pinnacle votes this contract in or not