I know a few people at Great Lakes, one of them only had 20 some hours multi time when he got hired. Upgrade is fast, about a year, pay really sucks and no CASS, scheduling isn't very good, but they do some good flying. They say that they are the best pilots of their lives. They expect to have enough turbine PIC in 2.5 - 3 years to apply at Alaska, FedEx, or what ever place they want to go. That isn't bad, but $15 an hour is bad.

I am going to look elsewhere first, but I am not going to rule it out. I could always move to somewhere better after a while, like SkyWest.

american eagle is typically pretty firm on 500/100, we had a bridge w/ them for guarenteed interviews, buddy wasn't given one at 98 hrs of twin time...at 101 however, was hired.

I'd also try transstates, recently they've been getting guys with quality flight time (the thousand hour range, hundred + multi) but my class which was in sept. had plenty (majority) of guys under 100 hrs of twin, some waaaaaaay under. was a class of 40 with a 15% drop/washout rate.

Shaun,

Rather than sit here and ask who's gonna hire a low time pilot, spend the time and money to put together resumes for every company you're willing to work for and SEND THEM. The only way to actually know if you have the qualifications that a company wants is to send them a resume or application.

The more you send out, the better your chances of getting a call from at least one company.

I am doing both. I am doing a mass resume mailing. Even though I know that places like ExpressJet aren't hiring people with less than 100 multi, they are getting one anyways. Perhaps I will be applying for them in a few years, so at least I can get into their system. I don't know if it will help or not, but I am sending one out to any airline that looks like an okay place to work.

That's the best idea. As you build more time perhaps in 100 hr TT blocks or 25 hr ME blocks, send updates.

More importantly, if you know folks at any of the airlines, see if they are willing to provide an internal recommendation or walk your resume in.

By AirWillie - "You've got to be joking me, scary that there are people just like you that actually get hired and are flying right now, the difference is they bought the job. What gives you the right to "build" time with 40 hours multi engine? You have to change your attitude and get some experience before you think hauling 50 poor folks at a regional is building time"

I don't want to change the point of this thread, but since its already started in that direction... Why are you singling this guy out for wanting to do something different? Does getting 60 more hours of time (that may happen to be multi) make him qualified? What would "give him the right" would be an air carrier hiring him. Relax on him and every other low time guy.

I would have to agree.

I am sure someone will say I have no basis to agree on.

But after x number of hours, who is the say you cannot be trained to fly a jet. It really is the airlines problem to figure that out, not us.

They give you a check ride at the end, you pass you work, if you dont then you go home.

Just through my expreince, I have been able to transsition from piper, king air, and cessna twins with little problem.

I think if someone put me or shuan in a sim, we would both do just fine.

Jeez whatever happened to 1200/200? I thought that was a good number as I feel you don't really know anything (judgment) until about the 1000 hr mark.

Next thing there won't be any requirements except a pulse and passing an aptitude test.

Besides, It really doesn't take that long to come up with 1200 its the 200 ME thats the problem. maybe I can see the ME sliding a little...

I'd guess its all based on how badly they need pilots. The more demand the lower those requirements get. In other countries all it takes is a commercail + multi to get hired as an FO on an airliner. I read a paper on India recently, apparently they are very desperate for pilots and have a real shortage. New FO's get hired around 250 hours total time and get paid better then most major airline FO's here in America.

Yea if you spread it out in normal 9-5 job pay, that equals to just about minimum wage. Imagine that, the Mcdonald's joke actually applies to at least one airline. GLA is a big sacrifice I'm sure your friend can tell you all about that and on top of that hey have a 15 month contract which makes it hard to leave for another regional. Enjoy the rocky mountain weather in a beech equipped with practically nothing.

Just get your MEI and find a job just like any other person that has been there before you. Not only will you have better options as far as airlines but you will also have better pay. Skywest needs atleast 1500 hours and plenty of multi. But if you make it, there's a short upgrade waiting for you and plenty of jet opportunity. Aim high.

You've been reading too many pay for training brochures. There are no options. Suck it up and get a multi engine job, god forbid you should sacrifice a few years to get that 500 multi like other pilots had to do in the 80s and 90s. And if you do make it to a regional, you can be sure the instructors will make it harder on you since you've only got a few dozen on the multi time. Just because they interview and hire with less than 100 doesn't mean you can pass the training. Don't take these reductions in mins for granted.

By the way, if Great Lakes really does have pilots with 20 hours of multi time, I wouldn't let my dog fly that airline much less friends and family.

There were plent of pilots getting hired with under 1000 tt in the 90's, perhaps not the entire decade, but this arguement by current airline pilots that todays mins are absolutely ridiculous is just that, ridiculous. With it taking 5 years and up to upgrade, its far harder nowadays to get started in the business than before. If you really want to look back in time, you could get hired at a major shortly after college. The 500 hour wonder pilot is nothing new. Also I think mins are simply just an arbitrary means of choosing pilots, that may have some meaning but isn't everything. I was in class at TSA who's known for having tough training, I watched a 300 tt 25 multi pilot with no CFI background breeze through training like it was nothing, and in the same class an older man with over 3000 tt and over 1000 multi washed. It's probably an exception to the rule, but it does prove hours aren't everything. The only reason anyone is mad about it is because their timing was bad and they didn't get the same opportunity. But I say, if the company is willing to take a chance and pay for their SIC, who are we to ***** about it. If they can pass their sim check and their ground, they have every right to be in the right seat.

SkyWest only needs 1000/100 along with 100 instrument. Lots of people get hired with these mins.

I thought the mins now days were just to get in to the interview, then you sould yourself from there on

Maybe that is just my perspective

Your argument is so absurd it's not even funny, typical pay for training response. A 172 pilot with 5 hours, in essence, can do the same thing as a 172 pilot with 1000 hours. Takeoff and land, very simple. Of course you and I know there is much more than that. If there was a serious emergency do you think the 172 pilot with 5 hours would be better chance of coming out alive than the 1000 hour pilot? I don't care if you nailed the training and made best friends with the instructor. If the $hit hits the fan, you will not be ready. And that is why you have to EARN the right. 300 hours compared to 3000, you must be kidding. As far as your comment above about easy entry to the majors, you're thinking of the 70s when you could get a job with 1000 hours crop dusting. Those days are LONG gone, it has always been tougher since then.

Hmmm. The military thinks differently. Most airlines overseas think differently. Many regionals (with very good safety records) here in the US think differently.

Not saying that it's right or wrong (I certainly have my opinions, and might even be a bit biased since I was hired into the CRJ at my first airline job with about 700/75).

Either way, I think you're taking out your frustrations on the wrong group. Don't yell at the CFI with 400/50 that's trying to get on with the airline. If he/she can do so, then good for them- it's quite an accomplishment as far as I'm concerned.

But if you have an issue with the fact they were hired, blame the pilots that hired them without whatever qualifications you see necessary. Better yet, volunteer your time and go conduct some interviews yourself. You'll learn very quickly that time in a logbook is just that.

There are 200 hr pilots that I would let fly around in my company's Citation. There are 7000 hr pilots I wouldn't even let drive my car, let alone get near an airplane I had anything to do with... judgement, depth of experience, training, real-world qualifications, and maturity play a bigger role in my book.

For example, a guy that has 300TT and 50 ME, but 7 years as a professional flight engineer or a military navigator probably has enough experience from being there and seeing it, to make wise decisions. If he/she can pass the interview, has the knowledge, and can make it through training, why shouldn't they be hired?

I'm not frustrated at all, I could care less, I just want to point out to kids with SJS that think that they're entitled to a job with 400/50. FlyerJosh, I'm sure that some pilots at interview boards would strongly disagree with you. Especially if they are military, seeing that you associate 500 hour CFIs with military pilots. And I'm not really sure what you mean by most airlines overseas, if you think an airline in India that employs 300 hour nationals from their training academy is most airlines then you might look into it a little harder.

Big Sky, Sky Way hire, Scenic Airways, hire with low ME time. If you are worried about ME time, Get your MEI. It will give you some ME PIC time, You will know ME stuff Inside and out for Airline Interviews, a resume builder, and you can get free time teaching others.

I don't think it's absurd at all, and just so you know, I'm not a pft, I'm a CFI/CFII who spent 2 years instructing and half of that time teaching full time, I had well over a hundred multi before I got hired, and have already had 2 regional jobs since then. I come here without a ton of experience but I've seen 2 classes full of all kinds of people who got experience in all different places. And an airline wants to hire people who won't wash out of their training, and I can tell you from experience that hours did not correlate to success in these classes. And I think YOUR arguement about a 5 hour pilot is absurd because no one is suggesting putting a presolo pilot in a jet. However I do believe that getting ME time can be very expensive, and getting an MEI can be nearly as expensive. Also MEI jobs don't grow on trees. So I'm a true true believer that a guy with say 1000-1500 tt and 25 multi should be able to get a job. Personally if I were on an interviewing board, I'd like to see someone come in, nail the sim, do well on a written and tech, and show me some personality so I know I could sit next to him for a 4 day. I'm just saying that hours are not a very good indicator of success. If they can do all of that, and they have 500tt and 50 multi, all the power to em.

personally, i believe that the high multi time will benefit turboprop carriers more than the RJ crowd. Also, having your MEI is probalby worth more than simply building tons of multi time, as the MEI is constantly being ready for an engine failure, or at minimium training on them, while the other guy simple gets the joy of going 25 kts faster than the single engines sitting on the field.

not sure how things work in the turboprops w/ v1 cuts, but i do know in the jet that there's no: power up, clean up, identify, verify, feather mentality thing going on...its like, hmmmm....rudder....fly airplane...do checklist.

Good point, FlyerJosh, about driving the car. That brings one pilot I know to mind. Another planned a multi day trip with an aircraft, drove to the airport, then realized that they forgot to reserve the aircraft. Said pilot is on their way to instructing as I type. Hours aren't everything, but they are one of the few measures we have to judge other pilots experience when they haven't had a "real flying job".

Sounds like you've got a good handle on GLA. It's tough, just a matter if you can make the sacrifice.

Thats kind of a broad statement. If that is your opinion then explain to me the magical transformation that occurs when a pilot hits that 1000 TT mark. Does Tom Cruise come jumping off a couch and perform some kind of witch craft on the pilot when that hobbs time clicks over from 999.9 to 1000? Judgement comes through education and experience, not through the accumulation of hours. Yes it does take some time but I fail to see how doing 1000 hours of touch and go's makes someone more qualified than flying 50 hours in actual instrument conditions.

*****REALBIGCHAIR****
I agree with you one hundred percent. I don't think simple logbook numbers demonstrate a pilots' ability or knowledge. Just because someone has 1000TT in their logbook that doesn't mean that all of that time was spent flying with a purpose or goal in mind, in fact a large portion of that time could be spent aimlessly flying around in an effort to just build time. The same can be said for flight instructing... I see way too many CFI's relaxing the standards set forth for their students and as a result the student doesn't learn as quickly or as effectively as they should. That said I believe that the quality of the flying that a pilot has done says more than just logged time. I also believe that a pilots' personality and maturity plays a huge part in whether they are qualified to fly for a regional, air cargo, etc.

Side note: I believe that the idea of a 300TT CFI instructing a student is ridiculous... I like the way the Canadian approach flight training. Upon earning your Comm. Multi. Inst. you are eligible to fly right seat in a King Air, 1900, BE99, etc to build time and gain valuable experience flying in weather, etc. and knowledge from the person sitting in the left seat. Then you would be able to flight instruct and earn a decent living instead of this 15-20/hr crap.

A lot of people think that others suffer from SJS or believe that jobs should be given to them, but I have to call shenanigans. If someone can do the job effectively and displays a level of competance and maturity necessary I have no problem with having them fly a regional jet. I understand that many feel this way and believe that people need to "pay their dues" and I don't have any qualms with that, but I do disagree with the way that low time pilots are expected to build time.
I do not mean to make inflammatory remarks that will ensure people rebutting what I have stated but keep in mind that this is my opinion. Just my opinion.

Seems like a very reasonable way to do things. You learn so much as a F/O.

It's easy for us airline pilots to say to these low time guys "Keep instructing" because we're already flying jets/tprops.

Lets stop supressing judgement on our collegues if they make it through training, they were tested the same as us, and should be considered equals.

I see what you are saying, but you are putting words in my mouth and making assumptions. Maybe all you did for building your time is touch and goes, I did more than that. Experience comes from doing and doing is flying. Yes, there are some people out there that have 1000 hours and cannot fly. However for the most of us, by the time we reach the 1000 hour mark (or thereabouts) your experiences will be vastly more than a guy with 250. A guy with 250 hours may be just as qualified and as knowledgeable as you with the 1000. However, the guy with 1000 hours has better decision making abilities due to experience (doing; flying) that only time (doing; flying) can build. You cannot tell me that experience (doing; flying) doesn't mean anything. If that were true than they might as well just hire at the FAA minimums (250 hrs). You can read all the books you want, I try to, but the best and most learning comes from doing it and being there. If are a CFI you know this. Older students are hard to teach but once they learn new information they understand the new information better than a younger student. The reason the older student learns information better due to the vast experience gained or his or her lifetime that aids in understanding and comprehending the new material.

Also, I was generalizing what I think for most people, a good ballpark number is for a good amount of experience gained. No 999.9 is not any different from 1000.0, but 500 is different from 1000. I would only hope that your experience increases with your flight time as does mine. Experience is everything.

Good for them. I still stand by my previous statement.

To each his own.:D

its all about experience, experience, experience, heck....the airlines shouldn't let any pilot be in control of an airplane until he's got atleast 5000 hrs....by then, he'll have enough experience to get him through the tought stuff....

quick question though - at what point does the experience cutoff begin? meaning, you can do all the flying you want to in light twins and singles and gain experience to make you a better pilot, however, there will come a time, when you've got as much as you can from light aircraft, and now are going to start flying a pressurized fly-by-wire jet that's at 40,000 feet, the only way you'll get expeirence doing that is by :doing that(flying).

Another note, if you're trying to make safe airline pilots, wouldn't it make more sense to hire a guy w/ 250 hrs? Hes young, leanring, and will gain the necessary experience in the airplane....and a year from then, he'd actually have more high performance jet experience than the guy who built an extra 750 hrs...

I really can't blame the "bad attitude posts"

Let's say I was to get hired into the regionals after a minimum
of 5 years instructing, building myself a few thousand hours, and some snotnosed kid with a wet tickets applies and gets hired into the same company...then yeah....I'd be ****ed too....and it's not because it's wrong....just a case of frustration and jealousy:D

I'm currrenty 350/75
Don't want to be the wonder kid, but I did apply at a few regionals....
considering I'm only 19, not many places I could get in. Colgan would be an option, but give the choice, I'd rather be flying a CRJ than a SAAB/BE1900. Just because (and o boy, here come the posts) it's shiny and pretty!:cool:

I was considering that ATP crj course thing for reduced minimums, but I got a guts feeling about that....

Is maybe VFR charter the way to go till I'm 21? :-)

get some college or u will be stuck there...

Def. am!
Should be graduating in about 2 years....when I'm STILL not eligible for
that ATP ticket...darn it:(

u can still take the checkride..i took it at 21 and then on my 23rd birthday i got the certificate at a local fsdo...

O really....
I was actually also reading a thread that was stating that it isn't in the FAR's that you have to be 21 for the written.
And that it does not expire if your employed at a 121 company.....
Don't know about all of that....

We all know that they have to have somebody to fly the airplanes. If they are desperate then they will go to the low-timers.

Ok now here is the problem: Military pilots and CFI's are low time, but when they screw up it will only hurt one or two people both of which know what they are doing can be dangerous. At an airline, when the low-timer screws up fifty or more people will be dead or injured. These people are buying a ticket with the expectation that they will be transported by someone who is going to keep them alive when things get bad. The passengers know nothing about flying and that is what they assume and have every right to expect.

Low-timers do not belong in a jet or t-prop flying people around. When the going gets tough most of them will need to change their pants. There is no substitute for real world experience, not a sim, not the books, but real flying experience. Not to mention that I predict the IFR environment in a jet will have these low-timers hanging on by the vertical stabilizer.

I guess the CA must be sleeping? I think he's probably sitting right next to the FO and giving him the experience he needs and learning from the situation which everyone agrees is the best way to go.

Also how will the mystical jet IFR environment that will have me hanging from the vertical stabilizer become clear after the 1000th go around? It won't. But I bet it would make a lot more sense after a few months of ground school and some IOE don't you think??

ASA is at 800/50

How many US domestic 121 accidents have been directly attributable to a low-time (sub-ATP minimums) pilot at the controls? What about incidents? More to the point, how many pilots were hired into turboprops or RJs in the mid/late 90s between 300-600 hours, upgraded when they got ATP minimums, and are now either senior CAs at the regional level or at the majors?

Many of those people by and large had no jet experience, yet they went into RJs when they were first introduced to the market. How did they do? I'd say considering the two RJ accidents in the US recently (PNCL screwing off during a ferry and Comair in KLEX) I'd say 99.9% of those pilots have been nothing short of 100% safe and professional in their job.

You are right, nothing replaces experience...but you don't have to hand-fly checks in a Baron or a 1900 in the northeast for a year to be safe flying a modern regional aircraft.

Go fly for Uncle Hooley