"What should a new hire do in preparation for
01-22-2013, 09:08 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 620
"What should a new hire do in preparation for
"What should a new hire do in preparation for entry to the 121 world......."
I was reading in another forum, experiences posted by a captain about his flying with newbie FO's. That prompted me to start this thread & Looking to get tips & advice that should help me & people like me who have no prior turbine experience & looking to break into the 121 world, so that the captain doesn't feel he is flying with a DUMBO.
I have included his comments in the quoted text. It is from a different forum though.....
MODS: pls move to approriate location.
I was reading in another forum, experiences posted by a captain about his flying with newbie FO's. That prompted me to start this thread & Looking to get tips & advice that should help me & people like me who have no prior turbine experience & looking to break into the 121 world, so that the captain doesn't feel he is flying with a DUMBO.
I have included his comments in the quoted text. It is from a different forum though.....
MODS: pls move to approriate location.
The issues range from frustrating to scary to just amusing.
On the frustrating end, I've had FOs who have no sense of keeping track of fuel. See, down here at companies that don't actually make money hand over fist and don't have a mainline partner that pays for their gas, we tend to get dispatched with min fuel all the time. It's not usual to see about 1:15 of fuel available on landing. That may sound like a lot, but when you consider about 1/4th of that is actually unusable during pitch up maneuvers of above 8 degrees or so (ie, a normal go around) it's actually not that much. There have been several times where the FO showed not comprehension that we were in a situation where if one thing went wrong (getting a 360 vector off of BUNTS in PHL and getting slow to 170 knots requiring flaps coming out) we could be in trouble as far as fuel goes. Sure, a simple "unable" or "min fuel" may solve that problem, but without prompting, they'd have had no idea.
I did a flight three months ago where there was a large line of convective weather. We found a hole to slip through and the FO was flying much closer to the upwind cell than the downwind cell (which were both about the same size). We talked about it for a bit and I realized he had no concept of the fact that that the winds aloft will carry turbulence, hail and other nastiness away from a storm and giving the upwind cell a wider berth than the downwind cell is probably a better idea.
A more scary event (and this was with a 250 hour wonder hired in 2008, so not a recent "weak" new hire) involved a guy flying a visual approach from about 10 miles out, where he was vectored in underneath the glideslope. He was then cleared to a lower altitude but somehow managed to set the altitude bug for an altitude above us. He commanded the autopilot to start descending to the "lower" altitude, but with the bug set above us, the plane would never capture and we'd just continue down until we hit the ground. He armed the approach at the same time and we got horizontal capture of the localizer but with the GS well above us, that would never capture. I told him what had happened but he was SO lost that he didn't understand the situation. We were about 8 miles out at 1500 feet and I finally told him just to hand fly. He dumped the autopilot but still followed the FD downward. I finally told him to look out the window at the runway and PAPI (which had been in sight this entire time) and he didn't understand why there were 4 red when we were still well above the glideslope (which wasn't showing on his display because it was pegged to the top of the screen).
The worst though are guys that just won't take any advice. I try not to ever tell somebody how to fly, especially if they are new. I'll give suggestions, and if asked, critique stuff, but part of the flight instructor mindset I've carried over to the left seat is that the best way for somebody to learn is to make there own mistakes. Obviously there is a limit on how much of a mistake I can let somebody make with 50 or 70 people behind us, but the premise is still the same. Some guys however KNOW they know better than I do and will either just ignore me or even argue that they are doing it the right way. Because of our low fuel dispatch policy we try to do power idle descents a lot. We don't have actual VNAV in the plane so we are reliant on an advisory "snowflake" and out own mental math. I can't remember where we were going, but it was someplace out on the Gulf Coast and they gave us a discretionary descent from FL360 down to 4000 feet. We had about 150 knots of wind against us at altitude but I knew from the lower level wind readouts (and the surface wind at the airport) we were going to lose that along the way down. The FO set up for a 4.0 degree descent which is a bit steeper than our normal 3.0 rate but works out to a power idle descent some times. I told him that wind the winds decreasing our ground speed would increase as we descended and our required descent rate would increase. He just said "I've got it". He waited until the required descent rate was about 3800fpm and then started down. Of course the wind dropped about 100 knots at 30,000 feet and the required rate went to 4500fpm which meant he needed spoilers to keep the speed back (not a big deal in bigger planes but not really needed with good planing in the RJ) and was pinning the passengers to the ceiling for 20,000 feet. After we landed (we had to do a 360 to get down as well) he blamed the plane for being "slow to descend".
And on the funny side, I've had, on two occasions, an FO keep about 300 knots through 10K because approach as said "max forward airspeed" and he assumed this waived the 250 requirement. I also had an FO ask if the label that said "ditch" on a Jepp 10-9 plate was where they wanted you to ditch the airplane if you couldn't make the runway for some reason.
There are lots of really smart FOs out there and I fully expect that a new guy who isn't familiar with the operation and the aircraft is going to take a little hand holding at first. However, what I don't like is that when I brief an oddball approach down to mins and look over and ask if he's got any questions or additions, to see a glazed over expression on his face and realize that this is the first time he's ever for real shot a VOR approach with multiple stepdowns. I don't like when we are holding and I'm trying to figure out our bingo fuel numbers to feel like that guy in the other seat can't back up my equations because he has no concept of diverting and just sits there and shrugs when I ask if the number looks about right. I hate having a strange MX situation arise in flight and start talking through systems with the guy and realize that despite him passing a systems oral he really doesn't understand the hydraulic system at even a basic level and I am pretty much talking to myself.
On the frustrating end, I've had FOs who have no sense of keeping track of fuel. See, down here at companies that don't actually make money hand over fist and don't have a mainline partner that pays for their gas, we tend to get dispatched with min fuel all the time. It's not usual to see about 1:15 of fuel available on landing. That may sound like a lot, but when you consider about 1/4th of that is actually unusable during pitch up maneuvers of above 8 degrees or so (ie, a normal go around) it's actually not that much. There have been several times where the FO showed not comprehension that we were in a situation where if one thing went wrong (getting a 360 vector off of BUNTS in PHL and getting slow to 170 knots requiring flaps coming out) we could be in trouble as far as fuel goes. Sure, a simple "unable" or "min fuel" may solve that problem, but without prompting, they'd have had no idea.
I did a flight three months ago where there was a large line of convective weather. We found a hole to slip through and the FO was flying much closer to the upwind cell than the downwind cell (which were both about the same size). We talked about it for a bit and I realized he had no concept of the fact that that the winds aloft will carry turbulence, hail and other nastiness away from a storm and giving the upwind cell a wider berth than the downwind cell is probably a better idea.
A more scary event (and this was with a 250 hour wonder hired in 2008, so not a recent "weak" new hire) involved a guy flying a visual approach from about 10 miles out, where he was vectored in underneath the glideslope. He was then cleared to a lower altitude but somehow managed to set the altitude bug for an altitude above us. He commanded the autopilot to start descending to the "lower" altitude, but with the bug set above us, the plane would never capture and we'd just continue down until we hit the ground. He armed the approach at the same time and we got horizontal capture of the localizer but with the GS well above us, that would never capture. I told him what had happened but he was SO lost that he didn't understand the situation. We were about 8 miles out at 1500 feet and I finally told him just to hand fly. He dumped the autopilot but still followed the FD downward. I finally told him to look out the window at the runway and PAPI (which had been in sight this entire time) and he didn't understand why there were 4 red when we were still well above the glideslope (which wasn't showing on his display because it was pegged to the top of the screen).
The worst though are guys that just won't take any advice. I try not to ever tell somebody how to fly, especially if they are new. I'll give suggestions, and if asked, critique stuff, but part of the flight instructor mindset I've carried over to the left seat is that the best way for somebody to learn is to make there own mistakes. Obviously there is a limit on how much of a mistake I can let somebody make with 50 or 70 people behind us, but the premise is still the same. Some guys however KNOW they know better than I do and will either just ignore me or even argue that they are doing it the right way. Because of our low fuel dispatch policy we try to do power idle descents a lot. We don't have actual VNAV in the plane so we are reliant on an advisory "snowflake" and out own mental math. I can't remember where we were going, but it was someplace out on the Gulf Coast and they gave us a discretionary descent from FL360 down to 4000 feet. We had about 150 knots of wind against us at altitude but I knew from the lower level wind readouts (and the surface wind at the airport) we were going to lose that along the way down. The FO set up for a 4.0 degree descent which is a bit steeper than our normal 3.0 rate but works out to a power idle descent some times. I told him that wind the winds decreasing our ground speed would increase as we descended and our required descent rate would increase. He just said "I've got it". He waited until the required descent rate was about 3800fpm and then started down. Of course the wind dropped about 100 knots at 30,000 feet and the required rate went to 4500fpm which meant he needed spoilers to keep the speed back (not a big deal in bigger planes but not really needed with good planing in the RJ) and was pinning the passengers to the ceiling for 20,000 feet. After we landed (we had to do a 360 to get down as well) he blamed the plane for being "slow to descend".
And on the funny side, I've had, on two occasions, an FO keep about 300 knots through 10K because approach as said "max forward airspeed" and he assumed this waived the 250 requirement. I also had an FO ask if the label that said "ditch" on a Jepp 10-9 plate was where they wanted you to ditch the airplane if you couldn't make the runway for some reason.
There are lots of really smart FOs out there and I fully expect that a new guy who isn't familiar with the operation and the aircraft is going to take a little hand holding at first. However, what I don't like is that when I brief an oddball approach down to mins and look over and ask if he's got any questions or additions, to see a glazed over expression on his face and realize that this is the first time he's ever for real shot a VOR approach with multiple stepdowns. I don't like when we are holding and I'm trying to figure out our bingo fuel numbers to feel like that guy in the other seat can't back up my equations because he has no concept of diverting and just sits there and shrugs when I ask if the number looks about right. I hate having a strange MX situation arise in flight and start talking through systems with the guy and realize that despite him passing a systems oral he really doesn't understand the hydraulic system at even a basic level and I am pretty much talking to myself.
01-22-2013, 09:43 PM
#2
What’s it doing now?
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: 190CA
Posts: 726
That guy has a lot of gripes. Most of that stuff comes from experience in the plane and the 121 world which is what new fo's don't have. Some of them are of course instrument skills and situational awareness which are things any airline pilot should bring to the table.
I think the real point is that you have to be able to contribute to the safety and outcome of the flight. Don't be a yes man or sit there like a bump on a log. Your job is important. The best way to get up to speed quickly is to read and reread your manuals. Know what is supposed to happen because you read it rather than just because some other captain did it that way. If fo's know their book they find something to call me out on at least once a trip(nobody's perfect). The only way I got to know what I'm doing in this plane at this company was to study!
One more specific to turboprops since the other guy talked about a bunch of jet stuff. We fly a lot of visuals and approaches into smaller runways in the mountains. Not as many ILS's to 10k foot runways. The plane isn't hard to land but if you don't hold yourself to a tight standard you can easily put us in a bad situation by being high and fast or low and slow or unstable or floating halfway down the runway or flying a crummy pattern. Back to basics: put it dead on speed and glide path and don't give it up. Then we won't be off the end of the pavement.
A great FO gets lots of free beer but like the old saying goes I'd rather have a frog and a stick than someone whose just taking up space. The stick to push buttons and circuit breakers on your side and a frog for conversation.
I think the real point is that you have to be able to contribute to the safety and outcome of the flight. Don't be a yes man or sit there like a bump on a log. Your job is important. The best way to get up to speed quickly is to read and reread your manuals. Know what is supposed to happen because you read it rather than just because some other captain did it that way. If fo's know their book they find something to call me out on at least once a trip(nobody's perfect). The only way I got to know what I'm doing in this plane at this company was to study!
One more specific to turboprops since the other guy talked about a bunch of jet stuff. We fly a lot of visuals and approaches into smaller runways in the mountains. Not as many ILS's to 10k foot runways. The plane isn't hard to land but if you don't hold yourself to a tight standard you can easily put us in a bad situation by being high and fast or low and slow or unstable or floating halfway down the runway or flying a crummy pattern. Back to basics: put it dead on speed and glide path and don't give it up. Then we won't be off the end of the pavement.
A great FO gets lots of free beer but like the old saying goes I'd rather have a frog and a stick than someone whose just taking up space. The stick to push buttons and circuit breakers on your side and a frog for conversation.
01-22-2013, 09:45 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,202
Originally Posted by bcpilot
"What should a new hire do in preparation for entry to the 121 world......."
I was reading in another forum, experiences posted by a captain about his flying with newbie FO's. That prompted me to start this thread & Looking to get tips & advice that should help me & people like me who have no prior turbine experience & looking to break into the 121 world, so that the captain doesn't feel he is flying with a DUMBO.
I have included his comments in the quoted text. It is from a different forum though.....
MODS: pls move to approriate location.
I was reading in another forum, experiences posted by a captain about his flying with newbie FO's. That prompted me to start this thread & Looking to get tips & advice that should help me & people like me who have no prior turbine experience & looking to break into the 121 world, so that the captain doesn't feel he is flying with a DUMBO.
I have included his comments in the quoted text. It is from a different forum though.....
MODS: pls move to approriate location.
He's talking about a 250hr guy back in 2008, now with the new requirements people should be a little bit more experience.
If is a nice captain and he give you some advise, take it and don't try to be a hero saying "I got it" if you really have questions. Remember they've been more time flying in higher altitudes and speed than us, the FOs.
And enjoy your time off before training, don't over study before because 121 training is a little bit overwhelming.
01-22-2013, 10:48 PM
#4
Eats shoots and leaves...
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Didactic Synthetic Aviation Experience Provider
Posts: 849
When you get to training: Get the basic stuff down cold ASAP. I'm talking about limitations, memory items, flows, SOPs/callouts and profiles. Get that stuff nailed in the first few days - work with your sim partner or in groups to quiz each other until you don't even have to think to answer questions on any of those things. Once you have done that, you have now created mental space to start processing some of the other things Tom addressed.
Situational awareness is key - where am I, what am I doing, what will I need to be doing in 1 minute, 2 minutes, 5 minutes, etc. Being able to think ahead and anticipate what is going to be happening shortly. Also, like Tom said, don't settle for just accepting the captains conclusions - be active in the process, think through and draw your own conclusion and compare. If the two don't match up or if you just don't aren't certain of the answer - find out why (note - discretion is sometimes required in this area, sometimes it's better to ask someone with a teachers heart later rather than a blowhard at the time; you'll have to be the judge of that one).
I had an outstanding example of this in the sim tonight - the crew had a puzzling compound problem to deal with. Neither one was exactly certain what the situation was, but they kept discussing it and working at it until they ultimately came to the correct conclusion and dealt with the situation appropriately. This wouldn't have happened if either of them had settled for the initial conclusion they came to rather than challenging each other with the pieces of information which each of them had that didn't match the initial conclusion.
While in training, study diligently - memorize the information listed above and continue to rehearse it. Read the material to be covered each day in class before class - some of it may not make sense when you read it, but read it anyway. It will often come together when taught in class, and you'll have better comprehension and retention. Review and mentally prepare for the events to be conducted each day in the simulator (again, being prepared gives you mental space to work on seeing the bigger picture).
Finally: Set aside a block of time each day to relax and tune out from studying. Your mind needs some open time to decompress and process it all. Go to the gym and workout (though some people find that to be a good time to study items such as flash cards), watch part of a ball game, watch a sitcom - do something that mentally disengages you from the studying you'll be doing much of the rest of the time.
You'll typically get at least one day off a week. As you wrap up ground school and move into simulator, take most of that day off and do something else. There is a very real burnout factor in the training, for most people if you don't occasionally step back from it a bit your overall performance will suffer.
Situational awareness is key - where am I, what am I doing, what will I need to be doing in 1 minute, 2 minutes, 5 minutes, etc. Being able to think ahead and anticipate what is going to be happening shortly. Also, like Tom said, don't settle for just accepting the captains conclusions - be active in the process, think through and draw your own conclusion and compare. If the two don't match up or if you just don't aren't certain of the answer - find out why (note - discretion is sometimes required in this area, sometimes it's better to ask someone with a teachers heart later rather than a blowhard at the time; you'll have to be the judge of that one).
I had an outstanding example of this in the sim tonight - the crew had a puzzling compound problem to deal with. Neither one was exactly certain what the situation was, but they kept discussing it and working at it until they ultimately came to the correct conclusion and dealt with the situation appropriately. This wouldn't have happened if either of them had settled for the initial conclusion they came to rather than challenging each other with the pieces of information which each of them had that didn't match the initial conclusion.
While in training, study diligently - memorize the information listed above and continue to rehearse it. Read the material to be covered each day in class before class - some of it may not make sense when you read it, but read it anyway. It will often come together when taught in class, and you'll have better comprehension and retention. Review and mentally prepare for the events to be conducted each day in the simulator (again, being prepared gives you mental space to work on seeing the bigger picture).
Finally: Set aside a block of time each day to relax and tune out from studying. Your mind needs some open time to decompress and process it all. Go to the gym and workout (though some people find that to be a good time to study items such as flash cards), watch part of a ball game, watch a sitcom - do something that mentally disengages you from the studying you'll be doing much of the rest of the time.
You'll typically get at least one day off a week. As you wrap up ground school and move into simulator, take most of that day off and do something else. There is a very real burnout factor in the training, for most people if you don't occasionally step back from it a bit your overall performance will suffer.
Last edited by bcrosier; 01-22-2013 at 10:58 PM.
01-23-2013, 02:45 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,750
People who whine about 'new 250 hour wonders' are hypocrites. Everyone was a 'new 250 hour wonder' at one time or other. And every single pilot in this industry has SJS. It's why people got into the industry - to fly fancy airplanes.
The best thing a new pilot can do is to be open minded to learn how little you really know. That's not a slam. It's just the truth. I have about 8500 hours and about 4500 jet PIC. I figure I'm starting to finally get the hang of it in this business.
Be open minded to learn. Be a chameleon. Listen to clearances. If you aren't sure about something, ask. Don't just think it doesn't matter.
Don't be too cool to admit you don't know something. And don't think that just because you now fly an airliner that you've reached the top of the pile. Be humble. Humility should apply to everyone. 20,000 hour pilots are sometimes corrected by brand new guys. How it should be.
The best thing a new pilot can do is to be open minded to learn how little you really know. That's not a slam. It's just the truth. I have about 8500 hours and about 4500 jet PIC. I figure I'm starting to finally get the hang of it in this business.
Be open minded to learn. Be a chameleon. Listen to clearances. If you aren't sure about something, ask. Don't just think it doesn't matter.
Don't be too cool to admit you don't know something. And don't think that just because you now fly an airliner that you've reached the top of the pile. Be humble. Humility should apply to everyone. 20,000 hour pilots are sometimes corrected by brand new guys. How it should be.
01-23-2013, 03:45 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by saab2000
People who whine about 'new 250 hour wonders' are hypocrites. Everyone was a 'new 250 hour wonder' at one time or other. And every single pilot in this industry has SJS. It's why people got into the industry - to fly fancy airplanes.
The best thing a new pilot can do is to be open minded to learn how little you really know. That's not a slam. It's just the truth. I have about 8500 hours and about 4500 jet PIC. I figure I'm starting to finally get the hang of it in this business.
Be open minded to learn. Be a chameleon. Listen to clearances. If you aren't sure about something, ask. Don't just think it doesn't matter.
Don't be too cool to admit you don't know something. And don't think that just because you now fly an airliner that you've reached the top of the pile. Be humble. Humility should apply to everyone. 20,000 hour pilots are sometimes corrected by brand new guys. How it should be.
The best thing a new pilot can do is to be open minded to learn how little you really know. That's not a slam. It's just the truth. I have about 8500 hours and about 4500 jet PIC. I figure I'm starting to finally get the hang of it in this business.
Be open minded to learn. Be a chameleon. Listen to clearances. If you aren't sure about something, ask. Don't just think it doesn't matter.
Don't be too cool to admit you don't know something. And don't think that just because you now fly an airliner that you've reached the top of the pile. Be humble. Humility should apply to everyone. 20,000 hour pilots are sometimes corrected by brand new guys. How it should be.
You are absolutely correct though about being open minded!
01-23-2013, 04:04 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Captain
Posts: 101
Never had a problem with 250 hour wonders, very small things u expect. It's the 6 year guys who get complacent, and U get complacent , and then u get surprised....low time guys usually don't have a lot if bad habits yet. Just need a little direction with summer t storms and such, that all comes with experiance..
01-23-2013, 04:11 AM
#8
Underpaid...
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: French-Canadian
Posts: 2,101
Originally Posted by bcpilot
"What should a new hire do in preparation for entry to the 121 world......."
I was reading in another forum, experiences posted by a captain about his flying with newbie FO's. That prompted me to start this thread & Looking to get tips & advice that should help me & people like me who have no prior turbine experience & looking to break into the 121 world, so that the captain doesn't feel he is flying with a DUMBO.
I have included his comments in the quoted text. It is from a different forum though.....
MODS: pls move to approriate location.
I was reading in another forum, experiences posted by a captain about his flying with newbie FO's. That prompted me to start this thread & Looking to get tips & advice that should help me & people like me who have no prior turbine experience & looking to break into the 121 world, so that the captain doesn't feel he is flying with a DUMBO.
I have included his comments in the quoted text. It is from a different forum though.....
MODS: pls move to approriate location.
What not to do is to start studying systems for the airplane that you are going to fly unless is from that said company. Companies fly their airplanes differently, some limitations will wary as well as memory items. They also teach systems differently and you don't need to be confusing yourself by it.
The best advice is take care of home and know what you are supposed to know as a Commercial Instrument Multi-Engine pilot. The airline stuff, that's what ground school is for so expect to be busy.
01-23-2013, 04:18 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: FO4LIFE
Posts: 1,531
Everyone b!tches about FOs, but guess what? There are plenty of Captains that shouldn't even be in the left seat and you have no idea how they made it. Just because your number is up, doesn't mean you should be a CA.
01-23-2013, 04:55 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,750
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
No.....not everyone use to be a 250 HR wonder, at least the way that you know it is used as a term in the airline world. Matter of fact, it is only of late in terms of the industry that there has even been such a thing as a '250 HR wonder'.
You are absolutely correct though about being open minded!
You are absolutely correct though about being open minded!
The point is that low time is not necessarily an obstacle. The mental attitude is key. Ready to learn. Be ready to 'drink from the firehose' as they say. It's a steep learning curve.
There is no 'best' model I can think of for who I like flying with but I do have a preference for folks who went to places like UND or Riddle. They seem to know the minutiae pretty well. And folks with significant time in Beech 1900s are almost always good.
All that said, it's hard to make huge generalizations. Some FBO guys are rock stars and some military guys are the biggest toolboxes I've ever met. No real rhyme or reason.
Feast or famine in this industry.
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